Taoist views on Buddhist way

[konchog uma]

Just some thoughts for you.

 

neat thoughts

 

is that first immortal the same as pan kou?

 

edit: buddhist mythology traces certain bodhisattvas, like vajradhara or samatabhadra back to creation as well (he is said to have arisen from creation fully awakened and never needed to climb the stairs to liberation.. it was he who transmitted to tilopa much that would become part of vajrayana)... but i don't bring that up to contest which is older, just to say that its interesting that both lines of thought and practice trace themselves back to the origin of this reality itself.

Edited August 27, 2012 by anamatva

[eye_of_the_storm]

I agree with Aaron In this regard.

 

Practices such as karma yoga... repent for your sins

 

Or the cultivating of merit

 

A person of virtue isn't concerned with cultivating merit or repentance

 

I spent a month as a volunteer in my country... Tibetan monastery - Gelug school

 

Firstly the nuns there had never heard of dream yoga... which is suppose to be fundamental to Tibetan Buddhism?

 

+ all the grovelling / floor prostrations and bowing to plastic statues...and the llama high up on some huge pedestal

 

I swear one nun tried to run me off the road... hahaha

 

and I heard of a few tales of people losing their minds at that place...?

 

Of which in one account the persons next of kin was called and he was taken home.... no help from senior monks etc

 

I think I will leave it there...perhaps that place wasn't the best example...

 

What I call alien is the 1st 'noble truth'... which is a complete disaster

 

Life is suffering.... awesome way to begin, no?

 

Become nothing... everything is illusion

 

You will be trapped in hell forever.... destroy yourself and be free!

 

^ I call this: Introduction to Buddhism - Have A Nice Day! hahaha

 

Do you want to see the great trap that is Buddhism... a vicious demonic creation - its insanity is clear

 

The Buddha apparently said....

 

The mind is everything. What you think you become....

 

now add a little spice.... Life is suffering?

 

and so it is.

 

Buddhism is slavery... at the very least the west should have nothing to do with it... so much confusion has already been caused by this...so called truth.

 

Christianity is more forgiving....hahah

 

Buddhism says....your already in hell

 

Christianity says... follow these 10 rules...

 

Taoism says... life is good... let us learn to make it more so... in fact... let us live forever!

 

I have taken this position... perhaps it will be considered extreme...

 

I admit I have not read every Buddhist text... but from the ones I have... as you see... my experience of it was not a good one.

 

But that is just my experience

 

[Aetherous]

Practices such as karma yoga... repent for your sins

 

Or the cultivating of merit

 

A person of virtue isn't concerned with cultivating merit or repentance

 

Although I think virtue and merit are similar, there is some truth to this. If you do it just to go through the motions in order to attain something, without becoming a better person from it, or without it being your natural response, then of course it's pointless and probably even more harmful than if you were to just be yourself.

 

Funny...I was just checking out a Tibetan practice book last night. In the intro it said, "may limitless beings attain liberation from this practice". I was thinking, "How pointless is it to say that? Watch it not happen." Totally fake and unrealistic merit.

 

+ all the grovelling / floor prostrations and bowing to plastic statues...and the llama high up on some huge pedestal

 

Yup, once you really look at Tibetan Buddhism, you see how strange it is. Unfortunate, since it's experienced such a huge explosion in the West, and there are thousands of books on it! Prostrations I think are nice...sort of physical exercise and cultivating a sense of being humble. We all need that. But yeah, a lot of their traditions are off putting.

 

What I call alien is the 1st 'noble truth'... which is a complete disaster

 

Life is suffering.... awesome way to begin, no?

 

Become nothing... everything is illusion

 

You will be trapped in hell forever.... destroy yourself and be free!

 

^ I call this: Introduction to Buddhism - Have A Nice Day! hahaha

 

Yup. Spot on. When a person becomes a Arhat or Buddha, that is their last life and when it's over, everyone else gets to reincarnate (if such a thing is true), whereas this guy simply is gone forever. That is the goal... No more "illusion", aka, LIFE.

 

There is something to be said about the peace experienced in deep meditation. Something to be said about the fact that even the sense of self is bound for extinction, and is usually problematic. But yea, the very core of the path is messed up.

 

Christianity is more forgiving....hahah

 

Buddhism says....your already in hell

 

Christianity says... follow these 10 rules...

 

Taoism says... life is good... let us learn to make it more so... in fact... let us live forever!

 

 

Excellent post.

[konchog uma]

well not quite excellent, from a factual standpoint, but certainly heartfelt. Sorry you had a hard time with tibetan buddhism, its not for everyone. My lama is wonderful and the sangha i belong to is too, i wish they could all be so. Prostrations build humility and purify obstructions and karma. The suffering inherent in ordinary existance is the best place to begin if one hopes to disentangle themself from it. The buddha didn't advocate becoming nothing, and he never said life was an illusion. Quite the opposite, he advocated becoming liberated and he was quite unequivocal in saying life is real. So i agree with you that your experience with Buddhism wasn't a great example, since it didn't even impress you with the tenets upon which Buddhism is founded.

 

the buddha started with suffering because of the human tendancy not to deal with suffering, to try to escape it. he saw that the attempts to escape only caused more suffering. So he began there. His statement wasnt that life is hell, it is the the cyclical revolution of samsara could never bring lasting happiness, and even the relative happiness one finds there is intimately related to suffering. Its an often misunderstood statement.

 

Its also the first of four noble truths, and was never meant to stand alone. It is followed by the truth of the cause of suffering, ego grasping or attachments (and aversions), and then by the truth of the cessation of suffering (the point of buddhism) and by the truth of the path (the method of cessation of suffering). If you spent a whole month in a monastery and didn't learn that, it wasn't a very good monastery. Buddhism is a path to liberation, not slavery. Anything that left you with that impression should be abandoned lol

 

i find it funny that oftentimes in literature and on this forum, i find smug, self assured daoists who think they are better than buddhists, or that buddhism (or their misunderstanding of it) is a bunch of nonsense fit for dogs. But in buddhist circles, there is a lot of humility and respect for other world traditions even though very few buddhists mix traditions with their own, their faith in the success of buddhist methods is in most cases proven by their own experiences. If virtue is any indication of success on the spiritual path, i think that says something interesting.

[konchog uma]

Yup. Spot on. When a person becomes a Arhat or Buddha, that is their last life and when it's over, everyone else gets to reincarnate (if such a thing is true), whereas this guy simply is gone forever. That is the goal... No more "illusion", aka, LIFE.

 

you're confusing rebirth with reincarnation. And buddhist doctrine with the idea that life is an illusion. The buddha taught unequivocally that life is real, its a major point of the later mahayana teachings which comprise the 3rd turning. And buddhas generally live in pure land heavens til they are called to return or they do what they like. Some might disappear, like some daoists join the void, but thats not generally what is taught.

 

so no, not spot on.

[flowing hands]

well not quite excellent, from a factual standpoint, but certainly heartfelt. Sorry you had a hard time with tibetan buddhism, its not for everyone. My lama is wonderful and the sangha i belong to is too, i wish they could all be so. Prostrations build humility and purify obstructions and karma. The suffering inherent in ordinary existance is the best place to begin if one hopes to disentangle themself from it. The buddha didn't advocate becoming nothing, and he never said life was an illusion. Quite the opposite, he advocated becoming liberated and he was quite unequivocal in saying life is real. So i agree with you that your experience with Buddhism wasn't a great example, since it didn't even impress you with the tenets upon which Buddhism is founded.

 

the buddha started with suffering because of the human tendancy not to deal with suffering, to try to escape it. he saw that the attempts to escape only caused more suffering. So he began there. His statement wasnt that life is hell, it is the the cyclical revolution of samsara could never bring lasting happiness, and even the relative happiness one finds there is intimately related to suffering. Its an often misunderstood statement.

 

Its also the first of four noble truths, and was never meant to stand alone. It is followed by the truth of the cause of suffering, ego grasping or attachments (and aversions), and then by the truth of the cessation of suffering (the point of buddhism) and by the truth of the path (the method of cessation of suffering). If you spent a whole month in a monastery and didn't learn that, it wasn't a very good monastery. Buddhism is a path to liberation, not slavery. Anything that left you with that impression should be abandoned lol

 

i find it funny that oftentimes in literature and on this forum, i find smug, self assured daoists who think they are better than buddhists, or that buddhism (or their misunderstanding of it) is a bunch of nonsense fit for dogs. But in buddhist circles, there is a lot of humility and respect for other world traditions even though very few buddhists mix traditions with their own, their faith in the success of buddhist methods is in most cases proven by their own experiences. If virtue is any indication of success on the spiritual path, i think that says something interesting.

 

I think it goes back to whether one feels realistically suffering, (whatever this state means for it means very different things to different people and to different forms of life), is natural and is unavoidable so should be accepted and not interfered with, or one could spend a whole lifetime trying to relieve ones own suffering unsuccessfully or others?

 

Do you feel that you could do this as a Buddhist? I am half a Taoist and Half a Buddhist. I follow the 'pure path' of Kuan Yin through the Monkey God and follow the Tao teachings through Li Erh and Hua Tuo. But my Buddha nature in the making, tells me that I can only work on myself and practice compassion in a balanced way. I accept suffering and embrace it as the human condition. For to live is to suffer. To suffer is to understand, to understand is the beginning of realization. Without realization how could one even become wise and reach the stage of true enlightenment. My advice; suffer lots in different ways and also enjoy life in different ways, then one will begin to understand.

[flowing hands]

Sorry double post!

Edited August 27, 2012 by flowing hands

[konchog uma]

I think it goes back to whether one feels realistically suffering, (whatever this state means for it means very different things to different people and to different forms of life), is natural and is unavoidable so should be accepted and not interfered with, or one could spend a whole lifetime trying to relieve ones own suffering unsuccessfully or others?

 

by that token flowing hands, why reverse the flow of the microcosmic orbit, or channel the semen up the spine to nourish the brain? I would say that trying to extricate oneself from suffering is natural and unavoidable too.

 

Do you feel that you could do this as a Buddhist?

 

i don't think its about being a buddhist, although that path has born me the fruit of less suffering in my life. I think its about keeping the grasping self, the ego of attachments and aversions, in a downward trajectory until it finally crashes and dies. There is no limit to the beliefs of people who can do this.. they might follow different world traditions but they all have egos which cause them attachment to the wheel of enjoyment and suffering. so in a word, yes, i strongly feel that weakening the ego and reflex of "self identity" will reduce suffering, and ultimately cause the drop to dissolve in the ocean, the individual to become cosmic. As this happens, suffering is reduced. Bad things can even happen to one on the path, but they will take it as a lesson on the path, and they won't suffer out of attachment to pain because of it.

 

 

My advice; suffer lots in different ways and also enjoy life in different ways, then one will begin to understand.

 

thats generally how it works for most, i agree with your advice! lol

[Aetherous]

you're confusing rebirth with reincarnation.

 

No, I'm referring to reincarnation or simply what happens after this human life.

 

And buddhist doctrine with the idea that life is an illusion.

 

In Tibetan schools, they often recommend to view the entire world (of the five senses) as a magical display of awareness. As illusion. It's not their philosophy (well maybe it is in some schools) that life and the world is an illusion...but it is what they cultivate and practice!

 

The buddha taught unequivocally that life is real, its a major point of the later mahayana teachings which comprise the 3rd turning.

 

We require a historical figure to let us know that life is indeed real? Only if part of the teaching is to cultivate a sense that life is illusory. Only if we rely upon a mythological figure for wisdom, rather than (coincidentally, what the Buddha recommended, which is) our own experience.

 

And buddhas generally live in pure land heavens til they are called to return or they do what they like.

 

This is definitely not the belief of all schools of Buddhism...

 

Also, do you really believe that, anamatva?

 

Some might disappear, like some daoists join the void, but thats not generally what is taught.

 

I know you have been reading Ajahn Brahm's book...they don't teach the same kind of disappearing, but in that school of what could be considered original Buddhism, they say that once you're an Arahant, that's your last life. No more existence afterward, period. No mythological rewarding paradise. No doing what you want. Your selfhood is absolutely extinguished.

 

I know Tibetan schools are different.

 

Also, sorry, I'm going to duck out of the conversation...didn't mean to offend you personally or be a "smug Taoist" (even though I'm not a Taoist). I don't think we will learn or do anything beneficial here, based on the tone this has taken...

[konchog uma]

No, I'm referring to reincarnation or simply what happens after this human life.

 

which is different from rebirth, which is what ceases upon liberation.

 

In Tibetan schools, they often recommend to view the entire world (of the five senses) as a magical display of awareness. As illusion. It's not their philosophy (well maybe it is in some schools) that life and the world is an illusion...but it is what they cultivate and practice!

 

so do quantum physicists, but they will still tell you that life is real.

 

We require a historical figure to let us know that life is indeed real?

 

yes, people misunderstood the doctrine of emptiness and began to cultivate themselves in an escapist manner.

 

Only if part of the teaching is to cultivate a sense that life is illusory. Only if we rely upon a mythological figure for wisdom, rather than (coincidentally, what the Buddha recommended, which is) our own experience.

 

life is illusory, but its not unreal. hows that for better semantics? lol its like a dream.. totally real while you're in it, but then it switches to another dream, and its not real anymore... so its kind of like asking is yesterday "real"? can you show me it? only now is real because we are in it. Right now, the moment you read that last sentence doesn't exist anymore, and won't until you reread it if you so choose. So in many ways, we can see that life possesses an illusory or unreal element. And when its over, we're off to somewhere else, and what we're doing right now won't be "real". So this moment is real, which is why buddhism and the spiritual doctrines recommend resting in it, but thats as far as it goes. There are a lot of illusory aspects to reality.. like the fact that its 99.99% empty space and .01% energy.. another "unreality". So we can agree on the experience of it, but it doesn't mean that things are as they seem.

 

Also, do you really believe that, anamatva?

 

i have no reason to believe that heavens don't exist. They are taught about in all the mystery traditions of the world, other worlds, little worlds, big worlds, faerie, siddhaloka, pure land, it goes on and on... why should i believe that this world is all there is? rather abrahamic. except they believe in heaven too

 

I know you have been reading Ajahn Brahm's book...they don't teach the same kind of disappearing, but in that school of what could be considered original Buddhism, they say that once you're an Arahant, that's your last life. No more existence afterward, period. No mythological rewarding paradise. No doing what you want. Your selfhood is absolutely extinguished.

 

I know Tibetan schools are different.

 

well i can't really claim to know what they meant by that, but there are certainly stories of those who came to human incarnation from other places, places of enlightenment and bliss. I don't really know tho, and yes its different in the tibetan thought. So its hard to pin down "how does this work"

 

i have even seen some people say that enlightenment is the literal extinguishment of consciousness, like upon liberation one becomes like a golem or something! that makes me laugh... i think theres a lot of ignorance out there and some people just want to make grandiose pronouncements rather than find out for themselves by achieving liberation lol

 

Also, sorry, I'm going to duck out of the conversation...didn't mean to offend you personally or be a "smug Taoist" (even though I'm not a Taoist). I don't think we will learn or do anything beneficial here, based on the tone this has taken...

 

aw you dont offend me in the least.. i don't take it personally, and i have seen much worse takes on the dharma and not been offended. I appreciate your point of view, as always, and i appreciate white wolf running on air's. I just understand things differently, and for the sake of our mutual understanding, i chose to respond contrarily to what had been presented. I hope you don't feel chased away by my tone, that would be my mistake, for which i appologize.

[konchog uma]

sorry for the confusion between "illusory" and "unreal"

 

reading back over it i see i use them interchangably and then insist in the difference between them

 

DOH

 

so the buddha did teach that life was illusory, but because people didn't understand that, he then taught that life is real. But he wasn't contradicting himself. Clarifying himself actually. Life is illusory and real in the same moment.

[Aetherous]

i have no reason to believe that heavens don't exist. They are taught about in all the mystery traditions of the world, other worlds, little worlds, big worlds, faerie, siddhaloka, pure land, it goes on and on... why should i believe that this world is all there is? rather abrahamic. except they believe in heaven too

 

I'm with you. Good to be open to possibilities...but still, I haven't visited these places in a real way, so as they say in Missouri..."SHOW ME".

[eye_of_the_storm]

Thank you for your response Anamatva

 

You intent is good - if my sensing is adequate

 

While I was at this place I was handed a very small book also... washed out green colour with white...A black and white photo of the teacher in the middle...I forget by who...or title sorry - though it was of the Theravada School.

 

I don't think I have read a work more disturbing or self hating...

 

The method he suggested was basically meditating on...his perception of how vile the human body is by separating all its different aspects.... which I do not wish to go into for the sake of everyone here.

 

He went through a step by step method of self hate and destruction.... removing his very humanity.

 

He was raised like this as a child....

 

This perception is unnatural and far from holistic or healthy in my belief.

 

Regarding humility // There is a difference between humility and humiliation...

 

.... what if I said prostrations were vanity?

 

For a path of truth there is in my opinion too much room for error/ misunderstanding... which can lead to sever psychosis in some.

 

Too much need for clarity...

 

Why so much trust in this Buddha or Buddhas? Like other titles it doesn't really mean much to me... other than the fact that many worship this idea...

 

Do you put as much faith in political leaders and their promises?

 

The reason why the Buddhist forum is so congenial is because it's predominately Buddhist.... they have the same delusion haha just being a little cheeky there.

 

Illimitable are the heroes of the world.

All the gods and people in the world,

And all the classes of living beings

Cannot know the Buddhas.

The Buddhas' powers, fearlessnesses,

Liberations and Samadhis,

And other Dharmas of the Buddhas

Can be fathomed by no one.

Formerly, following countless Buddhas,

I perfectly walked all the paths

Of the wonderful Dharma, subtle and deep,

Hard to see and hard to understand;

Through limitless millions of aeons.

I walked down all these paths.

In the Bodhimanda, I realized the fruit,

And have fully known and seen it all.

The great effect and retribution,

The varous natures, marks, and meanings,

Are such that I and the ten-direction Buddhas

 

Buddhas are untouchable and beyond the reach of the common man?

 

He also speaks of limitless millions of aeons... before he attained (the unobtainable).

 

limitless millions of aeons.... seems rather unobtainable... I think he speak truth here haha

 

Again at this place... to the horror of all present... volunteers/ curious people at the beginning of the path... they were basically laughed at for having the thought of achieving enlightenment... that it was a ridiculous notion... that the path takes trillions of lifetimes to complete....

 

Those Bhikshus and Bhikshunis,

Who harbor overweening pride,

The arrogant Upasakas,

Upasikas who don't believe,

In the four-fold host, such ones as these.

Numbering five thousand strong.

Who do not see their own mistakes,

Deficient in morality,

And guarding imperfections,

Those of paltry wisdom have left;

The chaff wihin the multitude is gone,

Thanks to the Buddha's awesome virtue.

 

These people, lacking blessings and virtue,

Are unworthy of receiving this Dharma.

The assembly is free of branches and leaves;

The trunks alone remain intact.

Shariputra, listen well:

The Dharma obtained by the Buddhas,

Is spoken for living beings

Through the power of limitless expedients.

 

What is more perplexing In Mahayana Buddhism, the bodhisattva vows to work for the relief and liberation (moksha) of all sentient beings as long as samsara persists. ... but this is already said by the Buddha to be impossible...some are not even worthy.... so how will one ever achieve this freedom?

 

At that time the World Honored One arose serenely from Samadhi and told Shariputra, "The wisdom of all the Buddhas is extremely profound and unlimited. The gateway to this wisdom is difficult to understand and difficult to enter. It cannot be known by any of the Sound Hearers or Pratyeka Buddhas.

 

If it is so extremely profound...and unlimited... why the need for clarity and reevaluation and so forth...

 

If it is so extremely profound and unlimited why is it so difficult to understand?

 

Maybe because its real purpose is to confuse... not liberate.

 

If I was to categorize myself I would say I am a philosopher

 

Taoism is for rebels

Edited August 28, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[The Observer]

It is said that to become a Buddha you must become a bodhisattva/bodhisaata first. And if I am not mistaken bodhisattva's have complete recall of their previous lives. Why did the Buddha have to undergo all those trials in order to gain his wisdom, when theoretically he should have lived at least one incarnation as a bodhisattva and with it total recall of his previous lives?

 

The buddha didn't advocate becoming nothing(...)

 

Nirvana="blown or put out, extinguished" as per http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nirvana

Edited August 28, 2012 by The Observer

[konchog uma]

I'm with you. Good to be open to possibilities...but still, I haven't visited these places in a real way, so as they say in Missouri..."SHOW ME".

 

quite so

[johndoe2012]

-

Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[konchog uma]

Nirvana="blown or put out, extinguished" as per http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nirvana

 

nirvana is a state that one attains, not really what one becomes. It is the extinguishing of grasping, aggression, and ignorance; of the ego of attachments and aversions that cause suffering. That lower self is not all that people are, so in its absence there is not nothing, there is something. That something is the awakened self, or buddha. So the point is not to extinguish or become nothing, its to liberate, and become a buddha.

[konchog uma]

double post

Edited August 28, 2012 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

Thank you for your response Anamatva

You intent is good - if my sensing is adequate

 

yes good intentions, like i said, as a student of buddhism i understand things differently, and the buddhism i follow actually makes a lot of sense, logically, intuitively, and has done for me exactly what it promised to do, so i just want to share that. Like i said to scotty, no personal offense was taken at all. So since your post is long im gonna get to addressing it...

 

While I was at this place I was handed a very small book also... washed out green colour with white...A black and white photo of the teacher in the middle...I forget by who...or title sorry - though it was of the Theravada School.

I don't think I have read a work more disturbing or self hating...

The method he suggested was basically meditating on...his perception of how vile the human body is by separating all its different aspects.... which I do not wish to go into for the sake of everyone here.

He went through a step by step method of self hate and destruction.... removing his very humanity.

He was raised like this as a child....

 

theravada and geluk tibetan vajrayana are two entirely different schools of buddhism, so i am wondering why at a vajrayana monastery they were handing out hinayana literature. Yes a lot of buddhists got lost along the way, in spite of shakyamuni's (and everyone else's) best attempts to steer them correctly, they got lost in nihilism, in suffering, in the abysmal human state such as they perceived it, and could not climb out of that hole. There are whole lineages of lost buddhists that are following their own projections moreso than the buddha-dharma. Again, i'm sorry you got caught up in one of those situations. At least it only lasted a month.

 

Regarding humility // There is a difference between humility and humiliation...

.... what if I said prostrations were vanity?

 

the insights of the masters who have gone before us are the shoulders we stand on as children to gain our vantage and view. Without their efforts and teachings, we would be very unlikely to find the truth ourselves. That is the point of view that causes one to joyfully make a prostration, delighting in humility, without being humiliated in the least. It is gratitude and reverence for those who came before, not humiliation or vanity.

 

It is possible to perform prostrations in vain, thinking "oh the lama will see me performing prostrations and think i am a good student" but that is not the point of prostrations. It is hard for someone with a strong ego to see the sense in humbling themselves before the masters and teachings, they think they are the guru themselves and anyone who would bow is a grovelling dog begging for scraps, while they feast on wisdom itself, but usually that is a mistaken view and they are just too arrogant to show respect for the lineage. Its a common western delusion.

 

For a path of truth there is in my opinion too much room for error/ misunderstanding... which can lead to sever psychosis in some.

Too much need for clarity...

Why so much trust in this Buddha or Buddhas? Like other titles it doesn't really mean much to me... other than the fact that many worship this idea...

Do you put as much faith in political leaders and their promises?

 

people trust the buddhas because their teachings have led to liberation and awakening for so many. If political leaders could awaken and enlighten, people would have faith in them too. I tend to think its not that hard to understand but thats just me. I think you are superimposing your own point of view and your own prejudices and experiences upon everyone in the world. Try to understand that in spite of the room for error and the need for clarity, buddhism has helped a very great number of people in exactly the way it said it would.

 

He also speaks of limitless millions of aeons... before he attained (the unobtainable).

limitless millions of aeons.... seems rather unobtainable... I think he speak truth here haha

Again at this place... to the horror of all present... volunteers/ curious people at the beginning of the path... they were basically laughed at for having the thought of achieving enlightenment... that it was a ridiculous notion... that the path takes trillions of lifetimes to complete....

 

the methods of some schools are understood to yield enlightenment after trillions of lifetimes of effort, while the efforts of other schools, like vajrayana, to which the geluk tradition belongs, are said to be able to yield liberation in a single lifetime. I can't personally explain that discrepancy or verify the truth or lack thereof inherent in it, but i can tell you its not a difficult decision on my part which school i will cast in my own lot with. To be honest i never took much inspiration from the theravadan tradition (with the exception of the students of ajahn chah of the thai forest tradition... his lineage seems to capture the spirit of liberation)

 

What is more perplexing In Mahayana Buddhism, the bodhisattva vows to work for the relief and liberation (moksha) of all sentient beings as long as samsara persists. ... but this is already said by the Buddha to be impossible...some are not even worthy.... so how will one ever achieve this freedom?

 

as its been explained to me, its not a goal that one is actually hoping to accomplish in a comprehendable amount of time, as much as it is a confirmation of the oneness of oneself with those around them, and an acceptance that the problems of the world are their problems too. There are tantric practices within buddhism which theoretically would allow me to commit suicide right now and be reborn in the pure land of the west anyway, to experience bliss for aeons if i so chose. The bodhisattva's vow, to return to places of suffering for as long as beings are suffering, in order to help liberate them, is a counterbalance to the natural selfishness that causes sentient beings to want to experience bliss forever. Like maynard said "why can't we drink forever" well we can, its just that when we do, those that can't go even thirstier.

 

If it is so extremely profound and unlimited why is it so difficult to understand?

Maybe because its real purpose is to confuse... not liberate.

 

pro·found

   [pruh-found] adjective, pro·found·er, pro·found·est, noun

adjective

1.penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding: a profound thinker.

2.originating in or penetrating to the depths of one's being; profound grief.

3.being or going far beneath what is superficial, external, or obvious: profound insight.

4.of deep meaning; of great and broadly inclusive significance: a profound book.

5.pervasive or intense; thorough; complete: a profound silence.

 

profound does not mean easy to understand. I wish it was easier for you and for everyone to grasp, but unfortunately life is complex and confusing and does not yield its secrets easily. It takes some people years of study before buddhism makes sense... they just do it because they have a karmic connection to it, or a deep seated desire for liberation which gives them faith that one day it will make sense. And usually, one day, it does, if the student is sincere. Just because you are confused doesn't mean that the purpose of buddhism is to confuse.. thats illogical.

 

Taoism is for rebels

 

taoism (not unlike buddhism) if for all kinds of people, included naive and deluded people who think that they are going to gain the secret of immortality from some old text or another. And people who want to watch the clouds go by and not give any thought to the reality they are trying, unbeknownst to themselves, to escape. And lazy people. et cetera et cetera. Does this mean that all daoists and self styled dao-lovers are guilty of those things? No of course not. That too would be illogical. But my point is that all religions and ways of addressing spirituality have their pitfalls and weaknesses. There is no easy path, no simple way to freedom, no way to lay on your back watching clouds in which the clouds themselves do the work reserved for you. That is a truth of life whether you are daoist or buddhist or worship the spot on your wall. I caution you against thinking that there is an easy way, or that you will actually live forever. Could be delusion. Doesn't mean life is hell, it just means that there is work to do if you want to reap the harvest of your labors. Good luck to you WWROA.

Edited August 28, 2012 by anamatva

[flowing hands]

"by that token flowing hands, why reverse the flow of the microcosmic orbit, or channel the semen up the spine to nourish the brain? I would say that trying to extricate oneself from suffering is natural and unavoidable too."

 

I reiterate my earlier statement: what one believes, or what one has been told and shown by others is not necessarily true in reality.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Thanks Anamatva

 

My understanding is that if one has a profound knowledge of something... as you defined, being able to explain it in simple terms should be easy / get to the essence of things.

 

What is and isn't possible is yet to be seen

 

The path is as easy or as hard as it needs to be

 

Personally I don't mind Zen

 

I don't believe meditation should be work...

 

I think one eventually comes to a point where meditation is a natural step / effortless effort.

 

Or is called to it... rather then it being a labour it is a responding

 

In the past I don't think I was entirely ready for meditation...

 

One plays music because one enjoys it... feels it...flows with it // it is not work

 

The more one enjoys something - there is no effort / no time - just unfolding

 

Peace

Edited August 28, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[konchog uma]

depends on how you meditate. most people find it challenging to master the monkey mind and deal with the issues that invariably come to the surface. maybe youre just blessed

[eye_of_the_storm]

We are all blessed

[konchog uma]

i wish

[thelerner]

I'm really digging the Ajahn Brahm audio's I've found http://diydharma.org/search/node/ajahn%20brahm, and it turns out I already owned the book that Anamatva recommended of his. Some how I bought it and never read it (Mindfulness, Bliss & Beyond). For a monk, he's hip, very clear, great sense of humor and he makes clear that Jhana's are within our reach not lifetimes away and that the road there is not thorny, it just takes patience.