Taoist views on Buddhist way

[Jetsun]

They do in Zen. They call it the Tanden or sometimes the Hara.

 

In Zazen emphasis is put on the Tanden. Your'e supposed to move the seat of your consciousness there.

 

Most of the Buddhist lineages which focus on the Dan Tien take that focus from their fusion with Taoism rather than from the Buddhist side of things, Ch'an took that focus from Taoism then transmitted it to Zen. I don't know of any Pali Sutras or other old Sutras which talk about it.

[JohnC]

"Taoist and esoteric practices begin from the perfection

of ch'i, thereby overcoming all the obstacles of the physical

body. Their first result is excellent health. The second step

in such cultivation is to reach samadhi. Confucian and

Ch'an (Buddhist) practitioners do not begin with cultivating ch'i, but

on the contrary, they start from the cultivation of mind.

The circulation of ch'i is automatically regulated by cultivating

the mind, and thus improved health of the physical

body naturally follows."

 

- Grass Mountain: A Seven Day Intensive in Ch'an Training With Master Nan Huai-Chin

Awesome post.

 

Two paths same mountain.

Edited August 6, 2012 by JohnC

[mrtiger]

Most of the Buddhist lineages which focus on the Dan Tien take that focus from their fusion with Taoism rather than from the Buddhist side of things, Ch'an took that focus from Taoism then transmitted it to Zen. I don't know of any Pali Sutras or other old Sutras which talk about it.

 

I'd say that's debatable. Whilst they may use the Chinese terms, ideas such as chakras, prana and asanas are common in non Chinese/Japanese Buddhism and I assume predate it.

 

So we can't consider the chi and the dantien unique to Chinese culture. It's just that they have different names and of course a different system.

 

My original point in this thread is not to think of Taoism and Buddhism as different but similar. And I think this is a really good case for their similarities.

[joeblast]

i think most of the reason for the idea that buddhism doesn't concern itself with vital energy or the dantian boils down to the fact that buddhism is complex and mysterious and if one hasn't actually studied it, they probably don't actually understand it. They probably understand a surface level misinterpretation of it, of which there are manymanymanyyy. For example, that it is alien. It is most fundamentally human, but most human's can't grasp it, so they reject it in a display of dualism that proves one of its foundational points.

 

ah well i digress.

as I understand, it concerns itself with it, absolutely, but does not place it on quite the pedestal that people say taoism does. a strong, well running vehicle is totally in one's best interests - buddhism just has the overriding concept of attaining enlightenment for the sake(benefit) of all beings. (I'm sure that's an oversimplification on many levels, but afaiu it certainly does concern itself with the body and its vital energies, the distinction is in the overall focus.)

[JustARandomPanda]

"Taoist and esoteric practices begin from the perfection

of ch'i, thereby overcoming all the obstacles of the physical

body. Their first result is excellent health. The second step

in such cultivation is to reach samadhi. Confucian and

Ch'an (Buddhist) practitioners do not begin with cultivating ch'i, but

on the contrary, they start from the cultivation of mind.

The circulation of ch'i is automatically regulated by cultivating

the mind, and thus improved health of the physical

body naturally follows."

 

- Grass Mountain: A Seven Day Intensive in Ch'an Training With Master Nan Huai-Chin

 

I have this book! It's awesome.

 

I can only claim to speak for myself but I found that much of what Master Nan said in that book (and some others he's written) to be true in my case.

 

Example:

 

After a few months of focusing on the air going in and out of my nose to my surprise the focusing on my breath has

 

1. Shifted automatically - all by itself(!) - to my Lower Dantien - I did not consciously "make" it happen. The BODY "decided" to do it without my intention or goal-setting.

Edited August 7, 2012 by SereneBlue

[Birch]

as I understand, it concerns itself with it, absolutely, but does not place it on quite the pedestal that people say taoism does. a strong, well running vehicle is totally in one's best interests - buddhism just has the overriding concept of attaining enlightenment for the sake(benefit) of all beings. (I'm sure that's an oversimplification on many levels, but afaiu it certainly does concern itself with the body and its vital energies, the distinction is in the overall focus.)

It just occurred to me somewhat recently what this 'for the benefit of all beings' could be about. Recall 'Intelligence in Nature' by Narby. IMO the 'work' of enlightenment is the 'work' of evolving the universe (the universe is doing it but it needs 'you' to do it through). It's about learning from one's errors (many of which are difficult to see unless consciousness is brought to them).

 

I could ramble some more about it being an impersonal yet very personal endeavour but then I'd get all carried away:-)

[eye_of_the_storm]

Are you allowed to do both?

[silas]

mrtiger->> My original point in this thread is not to think of Taoism and Buddhism as different but similar. And I think this is a really good case for their similarities.

 

 

To think of them as similar is to acknowledge that they have differences (from the principle of mutual arising). Therefore, the best way to stop distinguishing between them is to respond to differences as differences, similarities as similarities, without preference for similarities or differences.

[Cat Pillar]

I have this book! It's awesome.

 

I can only claim to speak for myself but I found that much of what Master Nan said in that book (and some others he's written) to be true in my case.

 

Example:

 

After a few months of focusing on the air going in and out of my nose to my surprise the focusing on my breath has

 

1. Shifted automatically - all by itself(!) - to my Lower Dantien - I did not consciously "make" it happen. The BODY "decided" to do it without my intention or goal-setting.

 

Wow, that's awesome! I didn't realize it at the time but the same thing happened to me back when I was still doing the breath-watching-at-the-nose meditation! I found that my focus would naturally slip down into the Lower Dantien.

 

I didn't even know much about Taoist practices at the time, so I thought I was just having a lot of trouble with the meditation.

 

I need to find that book, I haven't really read anything by Master Nan although I've seen his name a lot.

[C T]

as I understand, it concerns itself with it, absolutely, but does not place it on quite the pedestal that people say taoism does. a strong, well running vehicle is totally in one's best interests - buddhism just has the overriding concept of attaining enlightenment for the sake(benefit) of all beings. (I'm sure that's an oversimplification on many levels, but afaiu it certainly does concern itself with the body and its vital energies, the distinction is in the overall focus.)

In the higher dzogchen tantras there is actually quite a stout emphasis placed on the circulation of inner energies thru the various chakras with the aim of unknotting blockages.

 

From Longchen Rabjam's 'The Practice of Dzogchen' -- "With the maturing of the air and mind in the petals (or spokes) of the cakra of creation at the navel arise the heats, the signs of small, mediocre and great levels of the path of accumulation. Then one sees the faces of the Buddhas in Nirmanakaya form and becomes able to exhibit manifestations and miracles because one has achieved minor (divine) eyes, foreknowledges and miracles as the result of one's meditation and by gaining control over admiration and the rest, the 'four miraculous feat' of contemplation."

 

The way of training as advocated by Longchenpa is to combine outer (sutric) and inner (tantric) means. The tantras expound the 'Thirty-seven aspects of enlightenment' as the guide towards transformation of perceptions -- over time, the practitioner can learn to transmute impure perceptions and gradually, and meticulously, 'build' a sacred mandala which will transform into a 'palace' in order to unveil and actualize the various buddhas of the different families.

 

Explanation of the 37 aspects of enlightenment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhipakkhiy%C4%81dhamm%C4%81#cite_note-9

[Guest24]

my healer friend tells me that my lower chakra is blocked most of the time and my crown has some blockages. i have been seeing her once a month for the last year. is there any advice anyone would give to help all of my chakras open? i just do yoga as far as a energy practice but would try anything new. i am new to this but am slowly starting to undestand. thanks.

[Aetherous]

Shea,

 

Taoist types of breathing is the best thing, IMO. Bruce Frantzis teaches it as "longevity breathing". Dr Yang Jwing Ming has a book on it called "embryonic breathing". Buddhists practice something similar called "anapanasati". It's really simple...just expand the belly and keep the heart still on inhales, then on the exhale let it come back to normal. The breath should be quiet and calm so that you don't hear it. It should be even and continuous, so that the inhale is the same speed and length as the exhale, and so that there is no pause inbetween the inhale and exhale. This can open all of the chakras, and basically do everything.

 

There are tons of different practices and systems of study on this site, if you stick around you'll find what you like.

[Guest24]

thank you, scotty what do you mean by keeping the heart still?

[Aetherous]

The movement of the breath should only occur in the abdomen...if it happens in the heart area, then just focus on expanding the abdomen in all directions (belly moves out slightly, sides expand out to the sides, back of spine moves backwards....like a beachball expanding inside of the belly). It can take a while to get used to only moving the abdomen during the breathing, so it's okay if the heart has a little motion in the beginning...practice makes perfect. Eventually you will only have the breath movement in the belly area...then it's really healing, and the heart can relax open rather than being squeezed tight.

[Guest24]

okay, great! i will try this tonight and make sure my chest does not rise. thanks again. if you have any other suggestions please let me know.

[mYTHmAKER]

okay, great! i will try this tonight and make sure my chest does not rise. thanks again. if you have any other suggestions please let me know.

 

Put your attention on your belly and your breath will follow

[Guest24]

edited text

Edited March 26, 2013 by Guest24

[Aetherous]

After a while you will be able to tell.

 

The unique qualities of your mind hold the energy body closed in a certain way. When the breath is regulated and made to be calm, the mind is released and calmed as well. The two are connected...a person could also think about positive things, or feel a good feeling, and it will help calm their breathing. When the mind is released, the entire energy body relaxes open. This is the good feeling that you got.

 

Glad you liked it . If you keep it up, let us know what your friend thinks about your chakras next time.

[Ming]

I second what one said earlier:

 

Why put everything in boxes? Talking about "isms" or methods only limits you.

 

Buddhism or Taoism, who cares? Differences are only a matter of perceptions and perceptions limit your vision. Go beyond that. You all are more than that.

[Jetsun]

If you want to understand the best way for you to cultivate it is very useful to understand why the various traditions come from differing perspectives and understand their differences.

 

They may all end up at the same place but the means to get there are not the same and it could be that for you as an individual one route might be twice as fast as the other, but unless you understand how the paths are different how will you know which one is best suited for you?

Edited August 17, 2012 by Jetsun

[exorcist_1699]

Differences between Buddhist and Taoist ways of cultivation, from Taoist standpoint are:

 

( Continued )

 

6) Both systems need proof to justify their value; however, while Buddhist proof lies mainly in the spiritual aspects : See whether a Mind that knows all minds( 一切種種 心) , all wisdoms (一切種智 ) arise or not...Taoist proof , without the need of referring to those strange Ko'an or relying on a more competent master's confirmation , pays more attention to whether embryonic breathing appearing , blood and feces turning white or teeth rebirth... those physical features that hardly be illusory , hardly be explained by other factors , but Taoist practice .

Edited August 23, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Aaron]

Honestly, very few people understand the difference between Buddhism and Taoism. The fact is a lot of Buddhist philosophy found its way into Taoism due to the pressures put on Taoists monasteries and temples to conform to what was thought to be proper monastic behavior by the rulers at the time.

 

If you want to examine the actual differences, here are the ones I've found-

 

1) Buddhists preach detachment from the world, Taoists teach that one must become more attached to the world.

 

2) Buddhist believe that suffering is universal and that one must be from attachments to be free of suffering, Taoists teach that one must live in harmony in the world around them, not by detaching, but by diminishing their desires and learning to accept what they need and recognize what they want.

 

3) Buddhist believe that one can eventually overcome suffering through enlightenment and be free from the cycle of rebirth, Taoists do not believe in rebirth and believed that people should aspire to understanding the mysteries of Tao so that they can return to the Tao upon death. Note- later on reincarnation did find its way into Taoism, but there is no evidence that it was present prior to Buddhism's spread to China. (My own view is that we are never separate from the Tao, so there is no need to return, but that's beside the facts.)

 

4) Buddhists believe that compassion is instrumental in removing the suffering from one's own life and the lives of others, Taoists believe that compassion is an act of Te and that when it is done honestly, without selfish motives, is the highest exp<b></b>ression of Virtue. In other words, only he is who is willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the world, is worthy of caring for it.

 

5) Most Buddhists texts were written for the common man, the Tao Te Ching was written for rulers and not intended for the common man. Most likely Lao Tzu believed most men were incapable of following his teachings and only those of noble blood, educated, and who commanded a degree of political power could put them into practice in a way that could change the world on a large scale.

 

Anyways, that's all I got now, but I think it is representative of the major differences.

 

Aaron

Edited August 25, 2012 by Aaron

[konchog uma]

1) Buddhists preach detachment from the world, Taoists teach that one must become more attached to the world.

 

shakyamuni didn't really advocate detachment. I believe he taught that detachment can lead to dissociation in its extreme. He advocated a middle way, neither attachment or detachment. More like acceptance. But it can't really be put into words unless you get all stupid like "neither acceptance or non-acceptance, nor is it both at once, nor is it neither..." lol the middle way took 400 years for anyone to understand (nagarjuna) and its still a mystery, even to most buddhists in the west

 

3) Buddhist believe that one can eventually overcome suffering through enlightenment and be free from the cycle of rebirth, Taoists do not believe in rebirth and believed that people should aspire to understanding the mysteries of Tao so that they can return to the Tao upon death. Note- later on reincarnation did find its way into Taoism, but there is no evidence that it was present prior to Buddhism's spread to China. (My own view is that we are never separate from the Tao, so there is no need to return, but that's beside the facts.)

 

Basically true as far as i understand it, except that there is a difference between rebirth and reincarnation in buddhist thought. Some enlightened beings stay in existence, and sometimes reincarnate (like padmasambhava for example) but the concept of rebirth refers to an unskilled turn on the wheel of samsara, being caught up in the cycle of karma and necessarily being born into conditions that it generates. So in other words one can reincarnate at will as a matter of buddha-activity, but rebirth is not willfull, it happens according to karma. So buddhists generally aspire to avoid rebirth, although its a pretty high ideal, not for every buddhist, and many don't care about it.

 

4) Buddhists believe that compassion is instrumental in removing the suffering from one's own life and the lives of others, Taoists believe that compassion is an act of Te and that when it is done honestly, without selfish motives, is the highest expression of Virtue. In other words, only he is who is willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the world, is worthy of caring for it.

 

where does the difference between the two lie? i don't understand your point in #4

 

5) Most Buddhists texts were written for the common man, the Tao Te Ching was written for rulers and not intended for the common man. Most likely Lao Tzu believed most men were incapable of following his teachings and only those of noble blood, educated, and who commanded a degree of political power could put them into practice in a way that could change the world on a large scale.

 

on the contrary, most of the sutras were conversations between shakyamuni and various disciples and bodhisattvas, or the words of deities, and as such are pretty far beyond the common man. One of the things that makes buddhism hard to understand is that the writings aren't really for beginners or laypeople, but instead deal with very advanced concepts like emptiness and buddha-nature right from the door.

 

interesting comparisons, thanks for sharing