Of Mind and Matter

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

This is a post by CowTao in a different thread to me and I thought that his words are worthy of consideration.

 

Hello MH,

 

You ought to get a smack on the head because you have made me feel like i am not welcomed here on TTB!

(But i know you did not mean for it to be misunderstood in that sense, so all's well...)

....... ........ ........

 

 

Attempting an answer, i'd say mind is not on the dark side of the moon, and neither is mind on the bright side of it.

Where is mind?

 

When you hear a sound, there you will hear mind.

When you see a pretty girl pass by, there you will see mind.

When you taste something sweet, and call that honey, thats the taste of your mind.

When you smell the fragrance of green-ness after a short rain shower, that is the smell of your mind.

When you feel the heat of the summer sun on your face, that is how the mind is felt.

 

The 5 senses function to complete the make-up of what we label as a human being. The mind is always

the king. Why? Even if you take away one, two, three or even four of the senses, this we call a 'human

being' can still function, although not as completely as one who has all the senses intact, of course, which

is what most people have. But the mind, ah, the mind -- it can never be erased from the picture.

 

Since that which we label as the objective world is nothing other than that which can be sensated, hence

the allusion arises that all phenomena are but radiant displays of our own mind. Why radiant? Because even

if we were to lose one or more of the senses, we still retain the power of imagination, and this, as you know,

can be a source of all kinds of weird and wonderful possibilities. But where do all these possibilities reside?

Its quite obvious i think. Rather similar to when we are dreaming, actually.

 

Sorry for the interruption. I'll go back to my Haiku Chain now... Bye!

 

I realize that there are many people who believe in a universal consciousness of some form or another. Some like to give it names like God, or Goddess, or Grandfather, etc.

 

And then there are others, myself included, who do not hold to this concept.

 

I have oftentimes said that I need to take good care of my body because my body is the only thing I have to carry my brain around in. I do agree with the concept of 'mind'. That is, our logical brain as well as other means of perception.

 

So I guess a question at this point would be: Is our 'dream world' the same thing as our conscious interaction with reality or is there a difference?

 

Peace & Love!

Edited January 5, 2010 by Marblehead

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Hello MH,

 

You ought to get a smack on the head because you have made me feel like i am not welcomed here on TTB!

(But i know you did not mean for it to be misunderstood in that sense, so all's well...)

....... ........ ........

 

So I guess a question at this point would be: Is our 'dream world' the same thing as our conscious interaction with reality or is there a difference?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Naughty marblehead, making people feel they are not welcome.... that doesn't sound like you....

 

 

Isn't this question the same as the objective/subjective world question?

 

You mentioned 'universal consciousness' above and that you don't subscribe to it, by universal consciousness do you mean essentially 'God' or something else? Otherwise it's difficult to discuss because I'm not sure what certain words mean to you.

 

In answer to the above question in the quote I would say that there are many levels of consciousness and it's difficult to define which one your'e in unless you become conscious of another level and can kind of look backwards at the other. I still remember what it was to feel like a child, I can remember my level of consciousness and although at the time I couldn't have known, later as I grew, I knew how little I knew, yet, there was also something quite perfect in that, which I attempt to return to with the awareness intact... if that's possible in fact(I think/feel it is).

 

I think there is a certain 'dream within a dream' thing going on, the brain has its functions but also acts as an inhibitor.... so I've seen you do believe in chi(surprised me actually), I probably shouldn't say believe, I should say experienced.... so there are some who say they can see chi, usually having got that ability through 'stopping the mind'....lowering the brain waves..... so I guess the question is can you consider that possible? If you can then it stands to reason the brain acts as some kind of inhibitor, covering up one level of 'the dream/reality'.

 

edit/ps: my my, I just took a look at that thread...you have been busy

Edited January 5, 2010 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Marblehead]

Naughty marblehead, making people feel they are not welcome.... that doesn't sound like you....

Isn't this question the same as the objective/subjective world question?

 

Yes, I am ashamed. That is why I have left that thread.

 

You mentioned 'universal consciousness' above and that you don't subscribe to it, by universal consciousness do you mean essentially 'God' or something else? Otherwise it's difficult to discuss because I'm not sure what certain words mean to you.

 

The answer is "yes" to your question. It is my understanding that for consciousness to exist there must be a being of some form that is conscious.

 

In answer to the above question in the quote I would say that there are many levels of consciousness and it's difficult to define which one your'e in unless you become conscious of another level and can kind of look backwards at the other. I still remember what it was to feel like a child, I can remember my level of consciousness and although at the time I couldn't have known, later as I grew, I knew how little I knew, yet, there was also something quite perfect in that, which I attempt to return to with the awareness intact... if that's possible in fact(I think/feel it is).

 

I agree that we do (or at least can) have different levels of consciousness. I think that we need to be able to distinguish between when we are in these different states though. I can imagine myself being a child again but there are some things I am no longer able to do bacause of my age that I was able to do when I was a child.

 

Same with our dreams, I think. Sure, we can linger on the memory of a dream (if it was a nice dream) if we wish. Nothing wrong with that. But I think it is an error to think that our dream is a real part of our conscious, everyday reality.

 

I think there is a certain 'dream within a dream' thing going on, the brain has its functions but also acts as an inhibitor.... so I've seen you do believe in chi(surprised me actually), I probably shouldn't say believe, I should say experienced.... so there are some who say they can see chi, usually having got that ability through 'stopping the mind'....lowering the brain waves..... so I guess the question is can you consider that possible? If you can then it stands to reason the brain acts as some kind of inhibitor, covering up one level of 'the dream/reality'.

 

I will agree in that in Taoism we are constantly told to clear our brain so that the spirit of Tao can enter unimpeded. This is part of the unlearning process expressed in Taoism. Unlearning those things that block our ability to experience each experience without bias and prejudice.

 

It is said that most of us use only a small portion of our brain's capacity. Percentages differ but I am sure that it is none-the-less a valid statement.

 

But to the words in the thread title, I suppose the question would be: Does mind create matter or is it matter that creates mind?

 

From everything I have seen and experienced in my life I suggest that it is matter that creates mind. There must be a physical brain to be the central focal point of mind operations. It does, in my opinion, require a brain in order to experience awareness. (Actually, it requires a brain, of whatever a size for almost all animal life forms to exist even though there are a few exceptions.)

 

edit/ps: my my, I just took a look at that thread...you have been busy

 

Yeah. I know. Some of the things needed to be said, some I should have kept my mouth shut. But what happened, happened and I can't change that. It's now history.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Peace & Love!

 

That's as much as I can quote from your in quote response There must be a way but I don't know what it is!

 

So I gotta kind of work from memory; anyway, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much, it's kind of a valid

point that this is a Taoist forum, and a lot of us do come from different angles, and we are guilty of making a new religion called 'Buddao' ....

 

The mind/matter situation....well, that's a bit messed up these days due to the old Newtonian laws of physics being (to some degree anyway)thrown out due to particle and quantum physics, whereby in various experiments scientists observed particles would follow the expectation of the observer, this broke down the Newtonian idea of a separation between mind and matter, it's something they can't quite understand so various theories are postulated. Most importantly is 'the wave/particle duality' where particles of matter were found to essentially not exist until they were being observed, they remained in what was called a 'hazy wave state' until observed then they would become physical(don't ask me man, I'm no scientist ). Most in spiritual circles then make the jump I guess that mind then creates matter, or at least directly effects it, so the whole bit about the observer being needed, a human mind or some kind of mind. It is a big jump to mind creates matter and the universe though..... but there does seem to be a scientific theory to it these days.

 

As for the brain part and a brain being needed I guess this means you believe without an organic brain there is no mind? Is that right? So I would take it as absolute that for you there is no life after death...or at least no continuation of the personality? Then I gotta ask what is chi? And why can chi be manipulated/directed by the human mind? Would chi not be some kind universal energy, although without personality. To tell you the truth if your view is that you don't believe in a continuation of the personality after death but you still believe in chi and perhaps the energy within you goes and joins some other kind of energy/chi in the universe then your view is actually the same as millions of Chinese(to be frank). I have this same conversation with many here.... it surprised me greatly that many believed in chi and practiced qigong yet had no belief in the continuation of the personality. I don't know why... but it just did...took me a while to get my head around that one.

 

So I guess my question is the life after death one, as in do we cease to be, as in a kind of personality? And what is chi in your view?

[Marblehead]

Great response and oh, so many questions. Let's see how I handle them.

 

That's as much as I can quote from your in quote response There must be a way but I don't know what it is!

 

Yeah, that button doesn't always work the way we expect it to.

 

So I gotta kind of work from memory; anyway, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much, it's kind of a valid

point that this is a Taoist forum, and a lot of us do come from different angles, and we are guilty of making a new religion called 'Buddao' ....

 

Yeah. I guess I need to work on 'tolerance' a bit more. Hehehe.

 

The mind/matter situation....well, that's a bit messed up these days due to the old Newtonian laws of physics being (to some degree anyway)thrown out due to particle and quantum physics, whereby in various experiments scientists observed particles would follow the expectation of the observer, this broke down the Newtonian idea of a separation between mind and matter, it's something they can't quite understand so various theories are postulated. Most importantly is 'the wave/particle duality' where particles of matter were found to essentially not exist until they were being observed, they remained in what was called a 'hazy wave state' until observed then they would become physical(don't ask me man, I'm no scientist ). Most in spiritual circles then make the jump I guess that mind then creates matter, or at least directly effects it, so the whole bit about the observer being needed, a human mind or some kind of mind. It is a big jump to mind creates matter and the universe though..... but there does seem to be a scientific theory to it these days.

 

I try to stay up to date with what is going on in the sciences. I don't try to understand most of it but I do like to know where the current theories are headed. String Thoery and Quantum Physics is wierd stuff. And it is true that if we reduce a thing to its smallest components it appears that we are left with nothing. But Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu both warned against breaking things down because in the process we loose that things essence and its essence is what makes it what it was before we started breaking it down.

 

As for the brain part and a brain being needed I guess this means you believe without an organic brain there is no mind? Is that right?

 

That is correct. And even if a mind still existed without a brain there would be no awareness because it is our brain that offers awareness.

 

So I would take it as absolute that for you there is no life after death...or at least no continuation of the personality?

 

Exactly. No continuation of the personality, no more Marble upon death.

 

Then I gotta ask what is chi?

 

Chi is the energy of the universe. You may have already read what I mentioned before but I will say it again anyhow. Before the beginning Tao was One (still is but bear with me). One became two: Chi and Mystery (all potential). Two became three: The Manifest. The Manifest is the mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all physical objects as well as all life forms).

 

Chi's interaction with Mystery creates 'things'.

 

All living things have their personal Chi. This personal Chi includes what I call the 'Life Force'. Without this there would be no life.

 

And why can chi be manipulated/directed by the human mind?

 

Chi is energy. It has its polarities: negative (yin) and positive (yang). We can alter the polarity by adding or reducing either yin or yang. Chi energy can also be concentrated anywhere in our body for specific purposes. Energy flows in the direction of least resistence therefore we can direct this energy where it is needed.

 

There are other aspects of Chi that I am still not comfortable with yet and I am still considering those. They are things like a person's aurora and energy healing of other people. (Self healing I have no problem with.)

 

Would chi not be some kind universal energy, although without personality.

 

Exactly. It could be considered the mind of the universe, I suppose, although I do not go there, but even if we said that, what is there that would give universal mind awareness? That would require some form of brain, wouldn't it? Like a God or Goddess?

 

To tell you the truth if your view is that you don't believe in a continuation of the personality after death but you still believe in chi and perhaps the energy within you goes and joins some other kind of energy/chi in the universe then your view is actually the same as millions of Chinese(to be frank). I have this same conversation with many here.... it surprised me greatly that many believed in chi and practiced qigong yet had no belief in the continuation of the personality. I don't know why... but it just did...took me a while to get my head around that one.

 

Yes, that is exactly my understanding. When we die everything that was 'us' is recycled. (No energy of the universe is ever lost.) Physical matter gets eaten by the bugs, etc. We become fertilizer for the flowers. Our personal Chi (energy and Life Force) return to and mix with universal Chi to perhaps become some other life form (through Chi interacting with Mystery), or not. But regardless, I don't believe that our personality stays a part of what was our Chi. If I were a Buddhist and believed in reincarnation it would be easy for me to say that it does. That would easily explain the concept of prior lifes.

 

So I guess my question is the life after death one, as in do we cease to be, as in a kind of personality? And what is chi in your view?

 

So, yes "Marble" will cease to exist upon death. But, everything that was Marble will continue to exist in various forms and energy.

 

I would like to also point out that it is my understanding that what science refers to as 'dark energy' and 'dark matter' are what I call Chi and Mystery.

 

And please let me know if you see any missing or faulty logic with my understandings.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Well, that's the base point I guess, whether it's your belief that without the brain a form of personality can exist. Since there is not a time I can remember when I didn't have a brain(except a few nights ago when I drank too much)I couldn't argue, nor would I really be inclined to. Many experiences I've had could be put into the context of 'brain phenomenon', I can't say I think it's that simple but that may very well be my desire for it not to be.

 

I think ultimately the only true and useful point is if your practice or belief system enhances your life and leads to happiness. I can certainly see how your view could very much keep you in the here and now, and actually I could do with a bit more of that from time to time. It's easy to get a bit lazy or complacent when you believe in reincarnation or an after life.

 

I will say this though Marblehead, if there is an after life I'm gonna hunt you down and say "Look at me, I got no brain!" I'm annoying like that. And don't be trying the "I have no brain with which to perceive what you just said, who am I? I don't know, bye bye."

[Marblehead]

I think ultimately the only true and useful point is if your practice or belief system enhances your life and leads to happiness. I can certainly see how your view could very much keep you in the here and now, and actually I could do with a bit more of that from time to time. It's easy to get a bit lazy or complacent when you believe in reincarnation or an after life.

 

I will say this though Marblehead, if there is an after life I'm gonna hunt you down and say "Look at me, I got no brain!" I'm annoying like that. And don't be trying the "I have no brain with which to perceive what you just said, who am I? I don't know, bye bye."

 

Yeah. I think that being present in the here and now is very important. Doesn't matter if I am sitting here in front of the computer or if I am actively engaged in some activity that is directly effecting someone else's life or if I am outside viewing the gardens or the fish ponds. But whatever I am engaged in at the moment I wish to feel that I am fully immersed in what I am doing.

 

Now, if there is such a thing as reincarnation I am going to have a real blast next time around. There were a lot of ladies I missed on this go 'round. I won't miss them given a second opportunity.

 

So if we do meet in that nest realm, if there is such a thing, then I would welcome your teasing. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

 

So I guess a question at this point would be: Is our 'dream world' the same thing as our conscious interaction with reality or is there a difference?

 

Peace & Love!

G'day MH! How are you doing? Came across 2 videos that might interest you. Its made by a NewZealand chap, an ordinary guy, but one who has a few interesting ideas about life and the nature of reality. You may be interested to check out his homepage as well cos he has made a few related clips that are equally as interesting to ponder over. I assure you he is not a dogmatic individual; The way he presents his views, to my mind, is very practical and worthy of consideration. I think you will enjoy his perspectives very much. (I found the sound slightly muted so i had to put on the headphones - hope it'll be okay for you.) All the best!

[Marblehead]

G'day MH! How are you doing? Came across 2 videos that might interest you.

 

Okay. I viewed the first one and wish to comment on it before watching the second.

 

Yes, the audio is crappy. Hehehe. His monotone speech was difficult to stay with and his Brit accent was difficult for me to understand at times.

 

I do agree though that the mind is without limit. And I agree that there is a connectivity between all things. But then, when I saw the picture of the seahorse I also saw the separateness between it and the coral behind it. And the butterfly was distinct from the leaf it was standing on.

 

So even though I can see the connectivity of all things I can also see the separateness. This is important in Taoist Philosophy, I think.

 

And back to the mind. While it is true that the mind is without limit, the mind has its base in the brain. The brain is a physical phenomenon. Its existence depends on the life of the body. Does the mind remain after the body dies? I have seen nothing to cause me to think that it does.

 

So really, I cannot say if there is mind exclusive of matter. All I can say is that I believe that there is not. (Remember, I can be classified as an Atheist so that negates any concept of an universal consciousness.)

 

Okay. Off to the second one.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

G'day MH! How are you doing? Came across 2 videos that might interest you.

 

Okay. Finished the second one. The audio was a bit better even though his still spoke in a monotone.

 

I did not hear a single thing spoken that was not consistent with Taoist Philosophy.

 

I have always loved the story about heaven and hell (even though I do not believe that there is such places).

 

Thanks for sharing those.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Edit to add:

 

Have a great day!

Edited January 10, 2010 by Marblehead

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

 

his Brit accent was difficult for me to understand at times.

 

 

 

Yes, we did rather make a pigs ear of the language when we created it . It's just not American friendly at all!! Incidentally, on a side note I had a friend who went over to your side of the Atlantic and he met with a guy, web designer with a degree, and he had already told him he was English and the guy then asked him "so anyway, how come you can speak such good English", so he figured the guy hadn't heard him before and he repeated that he was English and the guy said. "yeah I know, but how come your English is so good!?", he was really embarrassed when my friend had to say "well, we kind of invented the language you know', the guy really didn't know. He said he met several people in the U.S of A who were the same. Others have told me the same thing! It's amazing to me! My friend also said that the ones most up on worldly differences of culture and so on were soldiers and the police! 'Cos they were given training in such things!

 

I can't say I've ever met an American outside of America who didn't know that, but I believe there's something like 80% of Americans who never own a passport in their life(I can't remember the exact statistic but it's around that mark). Is it common for people to not know where the language comes from?..... I'm not being silly, I'm genuinely interested.

[Marblehead]

Yes, we did rather make a pigs ear of the language when we created it . It's just not American friendly at all!! Incidentally, on a side note I had a friend who went over to your side of the Atlantic and he met with a guy, web designer with a degree, and he had already told him he was English and the guy then asked him "so anyway, how come you can speak such good English", so he figured the guy hadn't heard him before and he repeated that he was English and the guy said. "yeah I know, but how come your English is so good!?", he was really embarrassed when my friend had to say "well, we kind of invented the language you know', the guy really didn't know. He said he met several people in the U.S of A who were the same. Others have told me the same thing! It's amazing to me! My friend also said that the ones most up on worldly differences of culture and so on were soldiers and the police! 'Cos they were given training in such things!

 

I can't say I've ever met an American outside of America who didn't know that, but I believe there's something like 80% of Americans who never own a passport in their life(I can't remember the exact statistic but it's around that mark). Is it common for people to not know where the language comes from?..... I'm not being silly, I'm genuinely interested.

 

Actually, I think it is more at when we hear that someone is from England (or most anywhere withing the Brit Empire) we expect to hear the heavy Queen's English or the Cockney English that we hear from many of the British Empire music artists.

 

Many of us are unaware that there are Brits who speak a proper (American) English.

 

My last job before I retired was driving a taxi and one of my custoners had such a horrible Cockney accent I could hardly understand her at all and I constantly had to ask her to repeat herself. Actually, she might have been an Aussie because she sure loved to use the "F" word. Hehehe. I had to start using it when replying to her so she would understand what I was saying.

 

But I don't doubt that your guess it pretty true with many Americans in that they have no idea that we stole our language from the Brits.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Many of us are unaware that there are Brits who speak a proper (American) English.

 

Peace & Love!

 

LOL