The wu-chi diagram

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited January 9, 2010 by winpro07

[Stigweard]

Correct, but it's not my perspective, it's Ta Chuan (the Great Treatice) and Laozi (tao gives birth to one. One in the North is where it's at.)

The diagram you posted is left-right reversed. Hetu comes first.

Look at the clockwise cycle of creation. That's about the only thing this version of the diagram got right.

You posted this version of the diagram before and I think I pointed out its problems at that time. It's not a very good diagram, it has a few mistakes. I don't want to go over them once again -- maybe you can find the original discussion somewhere?

I'm hearing you. I just want to know why you are saying Water is designated as the first element in the sequence. Most systems use Wood as the start of the sequence.

[Taomeow]

I'm hearing you. I just want to know why you are saying Water is designated as the first element in the sequence. Most systems use Wood as the start of the sequence.

Whatever systems do that don't know their taoist fundamentals.

 

I'm pretty sure about this one, Hetu makes it obvious and if it doesn't to you, please check out the Ta Chuan -- whatever schools use it by overruling it are full of crap. In some languages, e.g. in Russian, the primate of water as the phase that starts it all is reflected in the fact that we have the same word for "kidneys" and "buds" --it's "pochki" in the human body (Water phase, North) and "pochki" from which leaves spring on a tree, I'd say a transitional Water-Wood interface. A book on embryonic development will reveal the same sequence -- the kidneys are the first organ of the body to form.

[Guest winpro07]

both are right,

 

 

at different levels or stages in the alchemy.

Edited January 9, 2010 by winpro07

[Stigweard]

Whatever systems do that don't know their taoist fundamentals.

 

I'm pretty sure about this one, Hetu makes it obvious and if it doesn't to you, please check out the Ta Chuan -- whatever schools use it by overruling it are full of crap.

Hmm ... why does the Hetu make it obvious? Because water is 1 on the cycle?? If this is was the basis of the attribution then Fire would be second because it is 2, which is why I suggested the sequence of Water, Fire, Wood, Metal, Earth.

 

Careful with your assertions of other schools of thought being "full of crap." Statements like this begin to sound like bigotry. Rather than make these sorts of statements, could you perhaps simply provide conclusive proof and references to back up your assertions?

In some languages, e.g. in Russian, the primate of water as the phase that starts it all is reflected in the fact that we have the same word for "kidneys" and "buds" --it's "pochki" in the human body (Water phase, North) and "pochki" from which leaves spring on a tree, I'd say a transitional Water-Wood interface.

Sorry your Russian language reference proves nothing in relation to Taoist ontology (the Water-Wood interface does however link back interestingly to the Jia Tze reference I gave earlier).

A book on embryonic development will reveal the same sequence -- the kidneys are the first organ of the body to form.

Reference your statements please. I don't have a book of embryonic development and the best I could find is Interactive Prenatal Development Timeline - Intermediate. According to this the first organ to develop is actually the heart.

 

Wood is the start of the highest alchemy because it brings down the 7th element, or rather up and down at the same time.

I need you to explain further. What do you mean when you say "brings down the 7th element"?

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited January 9, 2010 by winpro07

[Taomeow]

Hmm ... why does the Hetu make it obvious? Because water is 1 on the cycle?? If this is was the basis of the attribution then Fire would be second because it is 2, which is why I suggested the sequence of Water, Fire, Wood, Metal, Earth.

 

Careful with your assertions of other schools of thought being "full of crap." Statements like this begin to sound like bigotry. Rather than make these sorts of statements, could you perhaps simply provide conclusive proof and references to back up your assertions?

 

Sorry your Russian language reference proves nothing in relation to Taoist ontology (the Water-Wood interface does however link back interestingly to the Jia Tze reference I gave earlier).

 

Reference your statements please. I don't have a book of embryonic development and the best I could find is Interactive Prenatal Development Timeline - Intermediate. According to this the first organ to develop is actually the heart.

I need you to explain further. What do you mean when you say "brings down the 7th element"?

 

All right. Let's assume I don't mind the tone. For the greater good, I will provide, for the third time, the reference I provided on two prior occasions -- to wit, Ta Chuan, The Great Treatise (Great Commentary), one of the first books included in the taoist canon and the fundamental basis for many thousands of other taoist sources, both the ones that get it right and the ones that are full of crap because they either don't get it or didn't care to look as far as the basic fundamentals of their subject matter. (I will be very careful if a cop tells me "careful" and explains to me what kind of statements he'd rather I make or don't make. If you show me a badge, I will extend this careful stepping on eggshells to the ones you specify as well. ) Back to the reference though: can be found by itself or appended to the Wilhelm/Baynes translation of the I Ching on pp.280--355. Chapter IX on p.308 is the one you might want to peruse.

 

At the risk of further wrath I assert that I gave my Russian/embryonic/any which illustrations of the fundamental assertion I made based on Hetu/Ta Chuan for informal conversational purposes and in the tone of friendly discourse that clearly and unambiguously implied this goal, and therefore won't accept any homework related to either. I think your attitude (taking my corrections personally instead of realizing that their source is a passion for the art and whatever humble understanding it has produced to date, as impersonal as it gets) has gotten in the way of a darn good chance for you to understand the wuxing dynamics (one of the most beautiful, enlightening and practically useful episodes of cognitive perfection in all of taoism) which I would otherwise have been more than happy to explain, to the best of my ability, in such manner that you would never need any second or third party's opinion to rely on ever again because you yourself would see it everywhere and understand it as well as that an ox is not a horse.

[Taomeow]

both are right,

at different levels or stages in the alchemy.

In alchemy we go against the rules. I was talking the rules. I don't understand people (no one here on this forum, of course ) who go against the rules without knowing first what the rules are. I mean, I'm a rebel in my own right, but to rebel inside my own jing-qi-shen, inside my own body-mind-spirit, inside my own life-afterlife without knowing the rules first would be like randomly wrecking my own house in hopes that a bigger better one will miraculously build itself out of the rubble as soon as I break enough stuff.

 

I am not in favor of alchemy that is not based on a thorough understanding of the business-as-usual fundamentals and practical applications of same to inner and outer tasks for at least a few years prior to turning it all upside down. I'm not in favor of starting fires in the attic and floods in the basement just because I don't know which pipes normally go where and which ones are gas and which ones are water and which ones are the sewer. I am not in favor of masters and schools that get people to do things that are based on such ignorance, that are taken out of context and on faith and then defended to the death out of loyalty to a teacher, a sect, a school, or one's money and time invested. I can't help it... my numerological number is 22 and that's a "reformer of a culture" if it reaches its full potential, which it can only reach if it follows many rules before undertaking a revolution. And my gua is Gen, which is responsible for "setting and upsetting the limit." I understand upsetting the limit as knowing what it is first and where it's set before undertaking the upsetting. Rant over, excuses out...

[Stigweard]

All right. Let's assume I don't mind the tone. For the greater good, I will provide, for the third time, the reference I provided on two prior occasions -- to wit, Ta Chuan, The Great Treatise (Great Commentary), one of the first books included in the taoist canon and the fundamental basis for many thousands of other taoist sources, both the ones that get it right and the ones that are full of crap because they either don't get it or didn't care to look as far as the basic fundamentals of their subject matter. (I will be very careful if a cop tells me "careful" and explains to me what kind of statements he'd rather I make or don't make. If you show me a badge, I will extend this careful stepping on eggshells to the ones you specify as well. ) Back to the reference though: can be found by itself or appended to the Wilhelm/Baynes translation of the I Ching on pp.280--355. Chapter IX on p.308 is the one you might want to peruse.

 

At the risk of further wrath I assert that I gave my Russian/embryonic/any which illustrations of the fundamental assertion I made based on Hetu/Ta Chuan for informal conversational purposes and in the tone of friendly discourse that clearly and unambiguously implied this goal, and therefore won't accept any homework related to either. I think your attitude (taking my corrections personally instead of realizing that their source is a passion for the art and whatever humble understanding it has produced to date, as impersonal as it gets) has gotten in the way of a darn good chance for you to understand the wuxing dynamics (one of the most beautiful, enlightening and practically useful episodes of cognitive perfection in all of taoism) which I would otherwise have been more than happy to explain, to the best of my ability, in such manner that you would never need any second or third party's opinion to rely on ever again because you yourself would see it everywhere and understand it as well as that an ox is not a horse.

Every one of my requests to authenticate your facts given were valid regardless of whatever "tone" you have assumed I had.

 

You have asserted that Water is the first in the sequence. My question was simple: Why is that designation made? If Water is first phase because of the 1 single heaven dot then, to remain consistent, Fire must be the second followed by Wood, Metal, and the Earth. But this isn't the creation cycle of the Wuxing so a discrepancy occurs and I am very interested to discover why.

 

So lets get ourselves on the same page here. You have quote the Ta Chuan as the authoritative source for this discussion. Here's an online copy:

 

Ta Chuan section 1

Ta Chuan section 2

 

Could you please point me to the sections that support your comments?

 

[Taomeow]

Every one of my requests to authenticate your facts given were valid regardless of whatever "tone" you have assumed I had.

 

You have asserted that Water is the first in the sequence. My question was simple: Why is that designation made? If Water is first phase because of the 1 single heaven dot then, to remain consistent, Fire must be the second followed by Wood, Metal, and the Earth. But this isn't the creation cycle of the Wuxing so a discrepancy occurs and I am very interested to discover why.

 

So lets get ourselves on the same page here. You have quote the Ta Chuan as the authoritative source for this discussion. Here's an online copy:

 

Ta Chuan section 1

Ta Chuan section 2

 

Could you please point me to the sections that support your comments?

 

 

Alas, Chapter IX, when clicked upon, yields 404 --Resource Not Found.

 

OK, I'll type it in from my hard copy. P. 308:

 

"they (in reference to sections of Ta Chuan under scrutiny) represent the beginning of the connection between the number speculations of the Book of History (Shu Ching) and the yin-yang doctrine of the Book of Changes.(...) To understand this connection, which can be mentioned here only in passing, we must go back to the diagram known as Ho T'u, the Yellow River Map, said to have originated with Fu Hsi (fig.4). This map shows the development out of even and odd numbers of the "five stages of change" (wu hsing, usually incorrectly called "elements.")

 

Water in the north has sprung from the one of heaven, which is complemented by the six of earth. Fire in the south has sprung from the two of earth, which is complemented by the seven of heaven. Wood in the east has sprung from the three of heaven, which is complemented by the eight of earth. Metal in the west has sprung from the four of earth, which is complemented by the nine of heaven. Earth in the middle (t'u, the soil, the earth substance as distinguished from ti, the earth as a heavenly body) has sprung from the five of heaven, which is complemented by the ten of earth."

 

Now this clearly states that Water has sprung from the one of heaven, the very first manifestation (remember -- "tao gives birth to one?" -- that's what it is that it gives birth to, what did you think it was that tao first gives birth to, a tree?.. A tree needs... um, water in order to start growing. The beauty of it all is that it is a ganying fractal, you've seen the sequence in your everyday observations many times... as above, so below... if that's what you saw below, that's what happened above, taoism is a natural science before it is a supernatural one.) Now of course the above-cited paragraph also happens to resolve much confusion about the place occupied by earth. There's two kinds of earth under scrutiny -- earth as a wuxing phase of qi (t'u, the soil) and earth as the heavenly body of Hetu (ti), or rather as a heavenly number (numbers are real forces of creation in taoism, not mental abstractions... but don't let me digress.) To add to the confusion, they also liberally use "earth" to mean "yin" as opposed to "heaven" used to mean "yang" as in the case of the yin (even) and yang (odd) numbers spoken about in the above paragraph. So... When they place earth in the middle of the wuxing cycle, many many MANY MANY schools mistake one for the other. The earth of Hetu, earth the heavenly body and the primal-creation heavenly number (which, in the case of the earth, happens to be five), ti, does indeed sit in the middle. Whereas the earth of wuxing, t'u, is part of the cycle of the five phases like everything else, nothing special about it. Both systems are wonderful to work with, each has its magnificent applications. It only begins to suck when one is confused with the other and a whole doctrine "springs" out of this mistake. These were the ones I originally referred to as "full of crap." Maybe it was too harsh. It's all so simple people quit believing their eyes and start getting all mysterious and metaphysical... and vice versa: deceived by the superficial simplicity, even mundanity of the phenomena they're looking at, they get stuck with some banal explanation and fail to grasp the mystery. (The numbers of Hetu! Mystery of mysteries!..) The same confusion is, e.g., revisited many times in regard to Water of wuxing and Water of the bagua: they are different waters.

 

How wuxing phases get to be arranged in the sequence of creating/nourishing each other is something that can be as simple or as complex as you like, but please understand -- if in your daily life Water nourishes Wood, so does Water phase of qi nourish Wood phase of qi, not Fire. If in your daily life Metal is mined from Earth, so does Metal phase of qi get created by Earth phase. If you melt this Metal and it flows rather than grows or rotates or goes up, it means Metal phase of qi generates a Water, flowing kind of qi. Start with common sense and the sequence will fall into place. No, not even that. Observe and experiment and common sense will fall into place.

 

In any event, I never planned to spend so much time on this, so if I've still left you unhappy, I'm sorry but I've no time to pursue it any further for now. Maybe some other time if need be.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Taomeow

[Apech]

First of all - I am grateful for Taomeow and Stig for spending time on this discussion.

 

I have learned a lot already.

 

Obviously there are specific arrangements of both the 'elements' = 'stages of change' and of the trigrams which have specific applications. For instance the Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven pa-k'ua. If anyone is interested the book which I quoted originally "Cultivating Stillness" has diagrams showing the transformation of the trigrams from Earlier to Later Heaven ... heaven to fire and earth to water and so on.

 

Obviously also, the development of understanding of the process of change is key. The subject matter is 'how does a non-dual source through a process of interaction of its own inherent qualities generate an apparently dual world' - or that's how I would put it. In terms of my original question - this is about reading the Wuji diagram from top down - the generation cycle of the 10,000 things.

 

The way I explain this to myself is that as a being in this world and yet of a spiritual nature I deal both with the inner truth of the nature of spirit/the absolute/Tao and also with the (what I would call) devolved or perhaps evolved world. This world has qualities such as fire and water which exhibit themselves in cycles of change and development.

 

However what I am more interested in is the internal alchemy route of bottom to top. And specifically the part of the diagram which shows the 'elements' arranged as they are. I am thinking here that by understanding the function of the five within myself an bringing them to a state of harmony then what arises is a state of transformational stillness. This is indicated by placing earth in the centre.

 

Any thoughts?

[Mal]

Any thoughts?

 

Use a 4 element system rather than five

 

I'm sorry I originally learnt 4 elements

so "Metal" always seems a bit strange to me.

 

You posted this version of the diagram before and I think I pointed out its problems at that time. It's not a very good diagram, it has a few mistakes. I don't want to go over them once again -- maybe you can find the original discussion somewhere? [/color]

 

I think that was me, but I can't find it either. So thanks for the explanations.

[Taomeow]

Use a 4 element system rather than five

 

I'm sorry I originally learnt 4 elements

so "Metal" always seems a bit strange to me.

I think that was me, but I can't find it either. So thanks for the explanations.

This is the Greek version, right?

 

They also get these "elements" from combinations of two properties as I recall, and also place the outcome in the human body:

 

hot and wet produce blood,

cold and wet produce phlegm,

cold and dry produce yellow bile,

hot and dry produce black bile. (quoting from memory, please nobody throw anything heavy!)

 

The similarities are not surprising because all Greek philosophers got their education at the University of Alexandria, where the Great Silk Road had brought some professors who had taoist teachers. It's a good thing though they only lost one "element" in transition. When the great library at Alexandria was burned, Metal (which is controlled by Fire) must have perished in the process!

 

 

I re-read my yesterday's entries and feel frustrated because it's not simple enough to get away with going over it in a cavalry attack like that, and I failed to mention that Hetu and Luoshu must be looked at together actually, otherwise "why Fire isn't second after Water" still remains unclear, and and and... but then I thought, OK, this is stuff for oral transmissions anyway, and it has to be accompanied by hands-on practice involving exactly what you're trying to understand... at least that was my experience, I never learned any of this separately from applications, so I might not understand how to talk about it to someone who might be learning one thing while practicing another (or nothing at all). I got the wuxing picture from TCM and form-compass feng shui before I even knew the I Ching. I might suck at explaining it after all, because it's really hard to tell what is or isn't "obvious" to someone else. I may be forgetting how NOT obvious it was to me before the applications... so, sorry if that's the case.

[YMWong]

TM is right, Water is the first 'agent' according to most chinese sources.

I'd suggest those interested to look for instance at so-called 太一生水 manuscript

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi_Shengshui

 

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/...+philo+tyss.pdf

 

YM

[Apech]

This is the Greek version, right?

 

They also get these "elements" from combinations of two properties as I recall, and also place the outcome in the human body:

 

hot and wet produce blood,

cold and wet produce phlegm,

cold and dry produce yellow bile,

hot and dry produce black bile. (quoting from memory, please nobody throw anything heavy!)

 

The similarities are not surprising because all Greek philosophers got their education at the University of Alexandria, where the Great Silk Road had brought some professors who had taoist teachers. It's a good thing though they only lost one "element" in transition. When the great library at Alexandria was burned, Metal (which is controlled by Fire) must have perished in the process!

 

 

Sorry no. The Western Four Element system has its origins in Egypt and the Four Sons of Horus later developed by influence from Mesopotamia and then Greek thought. I'm not saying no influence from Silk Route but that was later and Alexandria was only constructed towards the end of the history of Egypt. They didn't lose metal it was never an element. There are correspondencies between the two systems but you can't read across like that. One interesting comparison though is where earth is placed centrally. In Western Hermetics the substance produced by the perfect harmony of the Four Elements is the Philosophers Stones (secret of immortality amongst other things).

[Taomeow]

Sorry no. The Western Four Element system has its origins in Egypt and the Four Sons of Horus later developed by influence from Mesopotamia and then Greek thought. I'm not saying no influence from Silk Route but that was later and Alexandria was only constructed towards the end of the history of Egypt. They didn't lose metal it was never an element. There are correspondencies between the two systems but you can't read across like that. One interesting comparison though is where earth is placed centrally. In Western Hermetics the substance produced by the perfect harmony of the Four Elements is the Philosophers Stones (secret of immortality amongst other things).

This view is in accord with traditional Western schooling that loses China off the map of philosophical and scientific contributions and primates as a matter of routine. Here's a book worth checking out for a better researched version: "Lost Discoveries," by Dick Teresi.

[fiveelementtao]

They didn't lose metal it was never an element.

 

I have done alot of thinking and experimenting with this problem... I feel very confident that I have found a solution. It's important for me that I not only find an intellectual understanding but also an experiential understanding of the elements.

Metal didn't get lost. It's there right under our noses. It's difficult because we get caught up in literal names like "Metal"

I once read a description of the Five Phases like this: (I'm paraphrasing)

The five phases describe Five ways in which energy manifests. It follows Five basic laws which interact and change.

Wood - Expanding

Fire - Rising

Earth - Congealing (I can't think of a better word, maybe condensing.. anyway think gravity...)

Metal - Contracting

Water - Descending

 

These "elements" are the best symbols we have in Nature to explain the ways in which the Five Phases operate. They are not the phases themselves they are the result of their action... So, don't get caught up in names like "metal" instead think what the process is that produces metal... According to the Five Phase theory, ash becomes earth which compresses the minerals to become metal. So metal itself isn't the Phase it is the result of the contracting force of the phase in question...

 

Western elements are the same (including Hindu). Here's how they connect with Taoist elements...

Earth - Earth

Water - Water

Fire - Fire

Air - Metal

Ether - Wood

 

Metal is the lungs (air). So air is connected to the metal element.

Wood is expanding energy. The hun energy of the liver is considered the ethereal aspect of our energy. (below the Shen of course)

ether is the expansive force of spirit.

so look back at the taoist element chart with the four cycles of the five elements.

The constructive cycle doesn't really construct energy. It creates energy by fueling the elements. The "controlling" cycle attempts to suppress the excess energy created by the creative cycle. This doesn't last and the excess energy which has no place to go (No purpose) starts to decay (disease, evil). The "insulting" cycle is actually purifying and purifies the excess energy which is liberated and then returns to the Source by way of the "destructive" cycle. The destructive cycle is what is used in the Yogic elemental cycle Earth Water Fire Air Ether. It is used in yogic meditation because it traces the path of Kundalini (earth) returning to the void.

Ching Chi Shen is often quoted as the path of alchemy but others (including Master Ni) state that the proper cycle of energy for alchemy is Jing (water)-Shen (Fire)-Chi (Air)-Universal Chi (Ether)-Void. Same as the path of kundalini...

 

In spirit fighting we use the "insulting" cycle which is the opposite of the "destructive" cycle. Wood metal Fire Water Earth. This is pre heaven energy descending to earth to purify "evil" excess energy of decay. It traces the opposite path of the destructive or "liberating" cycle. (Ether, Air, Fire, Water Earth)

So, here is my view of how energy is created balanced and returned to the Void for recycling:

Void (Pure undifferentiated Potential) separates into Yin and Yang which creates the Five Phases which govern how created energy functions. Now, the energy is in the post heaven stage. Energy follows the creative cycle and produces energy (life). as the energy continues to grow, the controlling cycle seeks to preserve life by suppressing its' growth, this is only temporary, the excess energy begins to decay which brings disease. The insulting cycle brings pre heaven energy from heaven to purify the decaying excess energy which is then liberated (dies) and follows the "destructive" cycle back to the source where it returns to the void and is recycled and the process starts all over again....

 

So, bottom line is (for me) that the five elements in western understanding is the same as the Chinese version only looked at through a different culture and with a different emphasis... I know that some will find all kinds of problems with my understanding and throw book knowledge at me. But, for me, this stuff has to be something that I can experience. Otherwise it is all a bunch of intellectualization. This understanding is something I can actually use in my experiential practice...

[Apech]

This view is in accord with traditional Western schooling that loses China off the map of philosophical and scientific contributions and primates as a matter of routine. Here's a book worth checking out for a better researched version: "Lost Discoveries," by Dick Teresi.

 

 

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. The oldest extended corpus of written religious writing in the world is the Egyptian Pyramid Texts (~2300/2400 BC) of King Unas (or Wenis). In these texts are ideas which are clearly older and given how developed they were when first written and that they come towards the end of the pyramid building age must stretch back at least to around 3000 BC. The Four Sons of Horus as a) guardian spirits of the major organs of the body, b ) four aspects of the construction of the cosmos and c) the four rudders of heaven are the antecedents of the what was later to be incorporated into Babylonian/Hellenistic zodiacs and so on which led to the four beasts and the four elements. In other words it was a consistent theme in the tradition of thinking which came from the ancient world through places like Alexandria and was preserved in traditions such as western alchemy and Hermeticism.

 

Every valid system of thought/symbolism of this kind is developed in a way which internally self consistent. They are models which allow us to reflect on the nature of reality. Where problems emerge is when trying to read across from system to system - this is because each 'element' in each system makes sense in the context of that system. The idea of 'metal' as an element or 'stage of change' did not exist as an explicitly stated function in the west and so it was not the case that it was dropped, left out or forgotten.

 

 

 

 

 

.....

 

So, bottom line is (for me) that the five elements in western understanding is the same as the Chinese version only looked at through a different culture and with a different emphasis... I know that some will find all kinds of problems with my understanding and throw book knowledge at me. But, for me, this stuff has to be something that I can experience. Otherwise it is all a bunch of intellectualization. This understanding is something I can actually use in my experiential practice...

 

 

Yep ... I think that's an interesting analysis.

Edited January 10, 2010 by apepch7

[Stigweard]

[Taomeow]

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. The oldest extended corpus of written religious writing in the world is the Egyptian Pyramid Texts (~2300/2400 BC) of King Unas (or Wenis). In these texts are ideas which are clearly older and given how developed they were when first written and that they come towards the end of the pyramid building age must stretch back at least to around 3000 BC.

 

 

Yup, I think you misunderstood what I was saying too. Hetu and Luoshu are older. Greek philosophers from whom we inherited the Four Humors theory may or may not have been in contact with the sons of Horus, but they were in contact with their professors at the university, which is what I was alluding to. The chart Mal posted is from that period, what was known earlier is... hmm, only everything, but not necessarily from Egypt, Sumer or Mesopotamia, contrary to popular belief. That later-stage knowledge will mirror earlier-stage knowledge because the latter happens to refer to something real is no surprise either, of course. The oldest yin-yang (taiji) symbols I've seen -- exactly like the "modern" ones -- are dated as 45,000--60,000 years old and were found at archeological sites in Europe. (Source: "The Language of the Goddess" by Marija Gimbutas, Ph.D. )

Edited January 11, 2010 by Taomeow

[exorcist_1699]

Edited January 11, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[Apech]

[~jK~]

Hello knowledgeable ones,

 

I have been reading Eva Wong's "Cultivating Stillness" over the Xmas/New Year and am interested in the diagram (Fig. 1 in the book) - version attached below.

 

I wondered if anyone knew of any source material which deals with this diagram in greater depth - online or in print.

 

Thanks.

 

A7.

 

 

Eva Wong wrote the entire book Cultivating Stillness to be a type of rosetta stone for Taoism.

The beginnings of each chapter have the translations in usually 3 forms and then more detail in the rest of the chapter.

 

If you want, I can ask a friend what the Taoism Sifu that lives in Eva Wong's ancestral hometown will charge you to explain more.

I know he has traditionaly required the person to come but my last contact was about 5 years ago - so he may have changed.

 

One point is that Chinese schools are a lot different from USA - when they graduate high school they are at 3rd year university as compared to USA standards.

 

All school children know these 186 rules by heart - from age 12 - and a Taoist Sifu will expect you to follow them. http://tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_simp.php

[Apech]

Eva Wong wrote the entire book Cultivating Stillness to be a type of rosetta stone for Taoism.

The beginnings of each chapter have the translations in usually 3 forms and then more detail in the rest of the chapter.

 

If you want, I can ask a friend what the Taoism Sifu that lives in Eva Wong's ancestral hometown will charge you to explain more.

I know he has traditionaly required the person to come but my last contact was about 5 years ago - so he may have changed.

 

One point is that Chinese schools are a lot different from USA - when they graduate high school they are at 3rd year university as compared to USA standards.

 

All school children know these 186 rules by heart - from age 12 - and a Taoist Sifu will expect you to follow them. http://tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_simp.php

 

JK,

 

Thank you for your kind offer but the demands of the rest of my life would prevent me traveling to China. I didn't realise that the book was intended as a 'Rosetta Stone' and I would say if so, it is only partly successful, although it is a very interesting book - hence my original question. All I was after was a bit more background and people have been most helpful.

 

I don't really follow your point about schools. I didn't go to school in the US although I did spend some time there when I was younger. I don't think I would struggle to follow the 186 rules though - except perhaps the one about keeping warm in winter and cool in summer, we have the coldest winter for 60 years here although signs of a thaw today!

 

A7.

[Creation]