The wu-chi diagram

[Taomeow]

[Apech]

Neither Zhouyi nor Shangshu are the sources of the diagrams. Fuxi is supposed to have lived some 6000 years earlier, according to oral sources and Chinese scholars who had recorder them, I seem to remember even Eva Wong mentions it. This would be impossible for a dilettante source like Wiki to corroborate, because the evidence is circumstantial. E.g., all of Xuan Kong yin feng shui is based on hetu and luoshu, and yin feng shui existed long before Zhouyi, as evident from the ancient Chinese burial sites dated 5,000 -- 6,000 years that are still in existence or (more often) were in existence when earlier scholars attributed hetu and luoshu to a particular earlier period. This is, however, irrefutable evidence for a yin feng shui master of today (e.g.), but the latter writes no Wiki articles. Much of it is indeed deciphearable only Da Vinci Code style.

 

Wong says that the Ho-to revealed itself through a pattern on a horse to Fu-hsi. Lo-shu on the shell of a tortoise to Emperor Yu - but does not give a date for either event.

 

I realise Fu-hsi was supposed to have lived 6000 years earlier but if so are there examples of the diagrams from this period?

 

I'm interested in these burial sites you mention - do you mean Banpo? If not can you give me any names?

 

Thanks.

[Taomeow]

Wong says that the Ho-to revealed itself through a pattern on a horse to Fu-hsi. Lo-shu on the shell of a tortoise to Emperor Yu - but does not give a date for either event.

 

I realise Fu-hsi was supposed to have lived 6000 years earlier but if so are there examples of the diagrams from this period?

 

I'm interested in these burial sites you mention - do you mean Banpo? If not can you give me any names?

 

Thanks.

I don't own reference sources, they were explained to me orally based on the works of Chinese archeologists Wang Guowei 王國維, Luo Zhenyu 羅振玉 , and Gu Jiegang 顧頡剛 . If you care to dig for them, give it a try, I wouldn't know where to start. Their work relates to pre-history. Look for Chinese archeology un-influenced by Western "help" and you shall perhaps find. I only have brief notes from in-person exchanges with people who know way more than me -- or Wiki.

[exorcist_1699]

Thank you for this wonderful post. Even though I am not in a position to understand most of it, it seems to be a very helpful guide to the seeker.

 

Creation , thank your comments.

 

The concept of Taiji is important in Taoist practice . It is said that human body is just another Taiji , or every human body has its own Taiji inside . In fact, some people , at certain stage of their cultivation, naturally find two twisted qi wrestling in their dantian areas like a Taiji ball .

[Apech]

I don't own reference sources, they were explained to me orally based on the works of Chinese archeologists Wang Guowei 王國維, Luo Zhenyu 羅振玉 , and Gu Jiegang 顧頡剛 . If you care to dig for them, give it a try, I wouldn't know where to start. Their work relates to pre-history. Look for Chinese archeology un-influenced by Western "help" and you shall perhaps find. I only have brief notes from in-person exchanges with people who know way more than me -- or Wiki.

 

Thanks. I've found limited material. But I have been able to confirm that Wiki was far too generous with the dates of Zhou which are given elsewhere as 770BC making it much later. I realise its unreliable as a source (unless you know who posted) but I have done some work on some of the Egyptian stuff so I knew those dates were more or less ok.

 

One thing I can agree wholeheartedly about is the distortion of archeology by the archeologist - especially 19 century and early 20 century - who were very prone to project their own theories and prejudices on the evidence. This is why I always work with source material triangulated (where possible) with verifiable evidence. Putative mythological origins are fine if understood to be what they are but I don't like to mix these with hard evidence like properly dated artifacts and so on. I also agree that historical views based on Europe and the Middle East are slanted. I think that from the very earliest times mankind has had a very broad lines of communication and carried with it a wisdom about nature/reality and so on. Anything seen from this perspective would challenge the orthodox view of the history of mankind.

[gendao]

[Taomeow]

Thanks. I've found limited material. But I have been able to confirm that Wiki was far too generous with the dates of Zhou which are given elsewhere as 770BC making it much later. I realise its unreliable as a source (unless you know who posted) but I have done some work on some of the Egyptian stuff so I knew those dates were more or less ok.

 

One thing I can agree wholeheartedly about is the distortion of archeology by the archeologist - especially 19 century and early 20 century - who were very prone to project their own theories and prejudices on the evidence. This is why I always work with source material triangulated (where possible) with verifiable evidence. Putative mythological origins are fine if understood to be what they are but I don't like to mix these with hard evidence like properly dated artifacts and so on. I also agree that historical views based on Europe and the Middle East are slanted. I think that from the very earliest times mankind has had a very broad lines of communication and carried with it a wisdom about nature/reality and so on. Anything seen from this perspective would challenge the orthodox view of the history of mankind.

You know, this reliance on hard evidence is the outcome of left-brain schooling we all know and love. I was raised in the tradition. My father is old now, but when he was younger, he was a walking encyclopedia of "hard scientific facts." He knew intimidatingly everything about everything, liked to bet and prove himself right every time, and things like exact dates, exact locations, and exact 'laws of nature' were supposed to be proof of... what exactly, I don't know. Intellectual superiority? Knowledge for its own sake? Tools of winning arguments? I don't know. Most of what he knew as "hard facts" had been changed by the very "hard sciences" he relied on during his lifetime -- no, make it "all." The Galaxy was supposed to be 5 billion years old till they discovered 18-billion-year-old stars. Learned skills were supposed to be inheritable based on hard genetic evidence, then not inheritable based on new hard genetic evidence, then inheritable again based on newer genetic evidence. Elementary particles were supposed to be particles, then waves, then both, then neither, all based on hard scientific proof. Eggs were supposed to raise your cholesterol, then lower it, then have no impact one way or the other based on hard scientific proof. Genghis Khan was supposed to be a barbarian, then an enlightened ruler, then a bloody tyrant again. Pyramids were supposed to have been built by slaves, then some engineers proved it impossible, then they were refuted, then they showed hard scientific evidence... and so on. Archeologists... carbon dating was supposed to be precise to a day, then it turned out that under various conditions, the error margin is 25,000 years give or take. The skull that was supposed to be "the missing link" and was for quite a while to all hardcore scientists turned out to have been a hoax. X-rays that were supposed to be pretty harmless and were used at shoe stores to help clients better fit their shoes proved pretty deadly after all. Computers were supposed to shorten work hours and the number of people processing any and all kinds of data, instead they increased both. The cure for cancer was officially "just around the corner" -- just one more study away -- five years away -- forty years ago, and then again a few years later, and then again, and again, and now again -- "almost there," just out of reach but we only need one more study and then... And on and on, ad infinitum.

 

Hard evidence is not reliable, contrary to what our conditioning suggests. It is prone to being obtained and interpreted by mere mortals who make mistakes, have agendas, axes to grind, grants to win, reputations to uphold, competitors to defeat, cultural bias to perpetuate, and on and on. They err and lie and stretch and jump to conclusions. They may be deficient in talent and skill and imagination yet ambitious and conceited. They plagiarize and repeat each other and things repeated often enough become our "hard facts" just because of that and nothing else -- as Lewis Carrol put it, "what I tell you three times is true." They might lack access to the bigger picture because they are narrow specialists and, as a 19th century sage put it, "a specialist is like a tooth abscess --- his fullness is one-sided." Hard evidence is notoriously without "heng," long endurance -- none of our "scientific facts" of today were seen as such 150 years ago and vice versa. They get refuted faster than they emerge. Clinging to the newest evidence especially, paradoxically, renders one obsolete in her knowledge in no time.

 

Which is one reason I allow "knowledge" to form a "field of possibilities and probabilities" in my mind without demanding "precision" except where it matters. I get rid of names and dates and "facts" and retain the essence. I rely on pattern recognition. This is something that is learned differently from looking it up in an encyclopedia. I will note what the encyclopedia has to say, sure, but I won't necessarily agree, and my disagreement may not stem from having read a competitor's article in a competing encyclopedia. I might disagree based on no "hard facts" whatsoever but, rather, on the basis of the "fact" presented not being congruent with the pattern I have learned to recognize, a pattern I've learned to trust.

 

So... it's my best bet with hetu and luoshu -- to rely on recognizing the pattern wherever I look. No matter how far back I look, I recognize it. I can't really prove it with hard facts... there's just too many facts, and I don't need any of them to be "hard" in order for them to work. Except when I do... THEN I will keep it precise. E.g., when looking for an acupressure point -- or for my own lower dantien.

[Apech]

You know, this reliance on hard evidence is the outcome of left-brain schooling we all know and love. I was raised in the tradition. My father is old now, but when he was younger, he was a walking encyclopedia of "hard scientific facts." He knew intimidatingly everything about everything, liked to bet and prove himself right every time, and things like exact dates, exact locations, and exact 'laws of nature' were supposed to be proof of... what exactly, I don't know. Intellectual superiority? Knowledge for its own sake? Tools of winning arguments? I don't know...

 

 

 

I like to balance left and right and get the benefits of both.

[thelerner]

[Taomeow]

[sean]

Great discussion.

 

I've been fascinated with this diagram for years, but never dug nearly as deeply into it as this topic here.

 

One thing that drew me to this diagram immediately was it's striking similarity to the Jewish diagram of the Kabbalah.

 

 

The only other person I've seen online discussing this connection is Bradford Hatcher of Hermetica.Info.

 

Here is a back and forth I had with him back in 2006, hopefully it adds to this discussion in some way.

 

------------------

 

Brad,

 

I stumbled across your site today via a post in a Yahoo group about the taijitu symbol. You are the first scholar I've heard even mention the similarity of this diagram with the qabalah, something that struck me immediately the first time I saw it. I have been pretty desperately trying to find any published works that discuss this diagram at any length, and if there are any other resources that discuss it's similarity with the qabalah that would be a godsend.

 

Terrific site and life work, Brad. I will have to make time to comb through it with more depth.

 

Thanks,

Sean

 

 

Hi Sean-

I haven't seen much on the subject either. But it seems so

obvious. Naturally the form of the Taijitu uses Chiese concepts

or "sephira". But really all you need to do is tease Chokmah and

Binah apart to have a Tree more modern than Kircher's.

I got what I could form Henry Wei's OP Authentic I Ching

and Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China.

I teased Richard Smith (a Yixue historian and professor at Rice)

with the notion, so he's on the lookout for anything relevant

in his travels. It being the 10th Cent for Chen Tuan and the

111th for Zhou Dunyi, I would imagine that the Arabs had

something major to do with the transmission through India,

the Mid East and into Southern Europe. I mention some other

names in my book, links between the two Chinese scholars.

Can't remember where I got them though. Maybe Fung Yulan?

The links I have in the Tongues section have the names of some

of the Arabs who might be worth looking at. I wish I could search

translations of the Ikhwan al Safa encyclopedia (10th cent?) and

the like for clues. I'm pretty certain an Arab scholar would need

to be brought in. That's where the lights were on in that era.

 

b.

 

Hey Brad,

 

I really appreciate your response. Yes, just splitting Chokmah and Binah apart, exactly! It's unbelievable. I am shocked no one else is touching this. The five element correspondence is interesting also, with Earth as Tipharet. Very Taoist.

 

Hey, so two quick questions. Is this diagram explicitly featured in and commented upon in these books you recommended? I am going to pick them both up if so. Authentic I Ching I found easily on amazon, but when you say Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China, which volume did you mean? I am getting a bunch of different volumes coming up on amazon for that search.

 

Thanks again!

Sean

 

Yes it is.

 

Needham, Joseph. Science and Civilization in China. Volume Two, History of

Scientific Thought. pp 304-345. Cambridge University Press, 1956.

 

This is going to be pricey. You won't want the abridgement.

I borrowed from the library and copied the 41 pages on the Yi.

Fung Yulan was the unabridged 2 vol as well (if it's even in there).

Henry Wei (not the other Wei) is an out of print pb, worth having

for other reasons too.

 

I tried to see a correlation between the Wu Xing and those 5 Sephira,

but I don't think it's meaningful. I suspect he diagram was forcibly adapted.

 

b

 

I see a connection but I could be stretching it. Well, off the bat Chesed and Gevurah appear to be in the right place, Water and Fire. Then Tipharet is the Sun vs. the Earth in the Chinese system, but I can't think of a better analogy to sum up the metaphoric center of these two cultures. Sky God vs. Earth God. Really could just be a cultural difference of languaging arising from the significantly different geography and lifestyle. Then we get Hod and Netzach which I think if you just flip the positions of make more sense ... Hod as Metal and Netzach as Wood. Whattdya think?

 

Sean

 

I'd agree with that - Chesed and Gevurah as Shui and Huo, but flipping Mu and Jin to relate to Netzach anh Hod respectively. Still, about all Tu and Tipareth have in common are the letter T and the color Yellow.

 

b.

 

heheh...

 

Sean

[exorcist_1699]

Besides the concepts of pre-heavenly and post-heavenly , another concept "Reversion" ( "逆 ") is also important when studying the diagram of Taiji . All living things , being entangled in the five-element circle , their growing process ( post-heavenly ) is a vector , a sequence pointing towards death , no exception seems ever been seen .

 

Can life be a reverse process towards endless upgrade and reborn , opposite to the time-series pointing towards decay , aging and death ? Taoism definitely says yes, not only in spiritual sense , but in physical.I think it is the only thinking system in human cultures that dares to make such a claim. Most other religions claim spiritual eternity , afterlife or whatever way , yet because there is no need/way to prove it , so all people are happy about it , more precisely speaking , helplessly succumbed to it.

 

However, claiming physical eternity is nothing the same, nothing easy .

 

Reversing our present, five-element-entangled status , back to Taiji , then to Wuji, is a great way that Taoism advocates . In fact, the process of refining jing to qi , reversing instead of releasing it outside, pushing it upward towards our head ( "還精補腦 " ) is already the start of stopping aging , the start of struggling against the lapse of time . Einstein's theory of Relativity already smashes our worship of absolute time in Physics , Taoist will not only smash the fetishism of time in our life , but also smash such worship to much a broader extent in biological sense .

Edited January 13, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[Taomeow]

Besides the concepts of pre-heavenly and post-heavenly , another concept "Reversion" ( "逆 ") is also important when studying the diagram of Taiji . All living things , being entangled in the five-element circle , their growing process ( post-heavenly ) is a vector , a sequence pointing towards death , no exception seems ever been seen .

I've seen it -- I have biotech friends who do stem cell research.

Of course it's been my idea for years that certain taoist alchemical practices do exactly that, physiologically speaking, -- to wit, activate dormant stem cells. The Immortal Fetus is what you get if you succeed. It's not the fetus as such, it's the fetal pattern of stem cell utilization that kicks in.

 

Can life be a reverse process towards endless upgrade and reborn , opposite to the time-series pointing towards decay , aging and death ? Taoism definitely says yes, not only in spiritual sense , but in physical.I think it is the only thinking system in human cultures that dares to make such a claim. Most other religions claim spiritual eternity , afterlife or whatever way , yet because there is no need/way to prove it , so all people are happy about it , more precisely speaking , helplessly succumbed to it.

 

Most of taoism is not after immortality and none of it is about "avoiding rebirth" (an idea imported from a foreign source, and by exceedingly few taoist lineages), since it doesn't see birth or rebirth as a bad thing, nor death -- provided the latter follows a long, fulfilled, enjoyable life. Immortality is for the most ambitious taoists, but "living out one's years to their full extent in health, peace and enjoyment" is the goal of most. Taoist ideas are life-affirming and rebirth-accepting (as one possible outcome which is not seen as negative -- see, e.g., Zhuangzi's musings re the possible joys of being reincarnated as a rat's liver -- "whatever I get reborn as, where can tao possibly take me where it isn't good?") This is not an escapist paradigm.

 

Reversing our present, five-element-entangled status , back to Taiji , then to Wuji, is a great way that Taoism advocates .

You mean buddhism.

Taoists don't call it nor see it as "entanglement." They see it as tao-in-motion, which is in no way secondary or inferior to tao-in-stillness, and call it that -- not with resentment but with appreciation and gratitude. Tao-in-motion is not "entanglement," it is "going along with the Way." Going against it consciously (i.e. alchemically rather than neurotically, out of greater ambitions than merely "living out one's years in enjoyment" rather than out of escapist get the hell outta here sentiments toward the world of tao manifestations) is just using an upgrade, or a better (or not even "better" but "different") model... like using a Mac when everyone else is stuck with Windows. (I use a Mac. Doesn't mean everybody else is "entangled..." ...or does it?... )

Edited January 13, 2010 by Taomeow

[Stigweard]

Just an observation here of the last few posts, I believe we have to be mindful of the implications of saying, "This is what Taoists believe." Exactly which Taoists are you referring to here? Is it really possible afterall to make some authoritive statement that represents all Taoist thought?

 

I believe we have to accept that Taoism is undeniably and fundamentally pluralistic in that there are so many forms and evolutions of "The Great Way". And out of all this diversity who really has the authority or the right to make any claims of "This is Taoism and all the rest is somehow less 'pure'."

 

Which is the true Taoism? Tianshi Dao? Quanzhen? Zhenyi? Longmen? TaoBum Pai?

 

Each will have similarities and yet each will either have different modes of getting "there" or will indeed have completely differring views on what "there" is.

 

Just a thought

[Taomeow]

Just an observation here of the last few posts, I believe we have to be mindful of the implications of saying, "This is what Taoists believe." Exactly which Taoists are you referring to here? Is it really possible afterall to make some authoritive statement that represents all Taoist thought?

 

I believe we have to accept that Taoism is undeniably and fundamentally pluralistic in that there are so many forms and evolutions of "The Great Way". And out of all this diversity who really has the authority or the right to make any claims of "This is Taoism and all the rest is somehow less 'pure'."

 

Which is the true Taoism? Tianshi Dao? Quanzhen? Zhenyi? Longmen? TaoBum Pai?

 

Each will have similarities and yet each will either have different modes of getting "there" or will indeed have completely differring views on what "there" is.

 

Just a thought

 

Excellent point. To me, a traditionalist, taoism (vs. not taoism) means two things:

 

1. Taoist fundamentals, i.e. a purely taoist and originally taoist (not derived from other doctrines) way to describe energies of the world: hetu, luoshu, yin-yang, wuxing, bagua, I Ching, qi, ganying.

2. Taoist Canon, i.e. what taoism itself included into what it sees as taoism.

 

So it is quite possible to tell what is or isn't "what taoists believe" much to the same extent it is possible to tell "what Christians believe," as well as to assess a statement made to that effect as true or false. In most general terms, Christians don't believe that Allah is the Savior. To the same extent, in most general terms, taoists don't believe that they are "entangled in wuxing." And so on: from a statement of someone's belief one can infer whether it is a taoist view being proclaimed or not really. Specificities vary, of course.

[gendao]

Taoism to me means following the rules of Nature. When you abide by such rules, you will reap the rewards of that.

 

Many of the same people who don't dare break the (arbitrary) rules of Man, will flagrantly violate the (real) rules of Nature by which life and the universe actually operate on.

Most people see a red light and stop. They pay their taxes on time. Etc.

Yet they may have no problem scarfing down food products loaded with trans fatty acids that will clog their blood vessels. Not to speak of far more esoteric natural causes & effects.

 

The laws of Nature are largely unwritten and unseen to the casual eye...but no less important. So, Taoists have devised a science out of detecting these rules (many exceedingly subtle) and learned how to live accordingly to them - to fully maximize their personal potentials and opportunities in life.

Edited January 14, 2010 by vortex

[Stigweard]

Excellent point. To me, a traditionalist, taoism (vs. not taoism) means two things:

 

1. Taoist fundamentals, i.e. a purely taoist and originally taoist (not derived from other doctrines) way to describe energies of the world: hetu, luoshu, yin-yang, wuxing, bagua, I Ching, qi, ganying.

2. Taoist Canon, i.e. what taoism itself included into what it sees as taoism.

 

So it is quite possible to tell what is or isn't "what taoists believe" much to the same extent it is possible to tell "what Christians believe," as well as to assess a statement made to that effect as true or false. In most general terms, Christians don't believe that Allah is the Savior. To the same extent, in most general terms, taoists don't believe that they are "entangled in wuxing." And so on: from a statement of someone's belief one can infer whether it is a taoist view being proclaimed or not really. Specificities vary, of course.

Sure I am a bit of a traditionalist myself. The thing is though that the path of becoming a Xian is well within the core components of Taoist ontology.

 

Here is the "Jade Emperor's Heart Seal Sutra" from The Daozang (Treasury of Tao):

 

The precious Immortal Medicine is contained within you:

Shen as spirit and mind

Chi as general vitality

And ching as sexual energy.

There are one energy manifested in different forms.

To maintain integrity, do not employ them in isolation.

Before manifestation, this high potency of life is whole and subtle.

In your cultivation, return to the subtle breath

Before you were born

After a certain length of time, wholeness can be seen;

It will become the foundation of your spiritual empire.

You then can have a personal audience with

The Jade Emperor who sits firmly on the throne within.

With him, you ride on the natural cycle of universal energy

And are able to ascend from the lower sphere of nature

To the high Heavenly realms

For the person of high intelligence,

This is easy to fulfill;

But for the ignorant it is difficult to accept.

In the early morning's dawn,

Inhale and exhale the clarity and purity.

Like the fetus,

Rest in the mysterious womb of the mother.

In this way you gather your own subtle essence

And enjoy steady subtle growth.

As the integrity of your life is restored,

You will find the true fulfillment of immortality;

All things are only temporarily named.

The truth of immortality is dependent

On your integrated new life of wholeness.

Your integrated new life of wholeness

Is able to penetrate the densest stones

And soar freely in the ethereal sky.

This integrated new life cannot be drowned,

Nor can it be burned in the hottest fire.

In general, spirit must integrate with form

Subtle essence depends on vital chi.

Once achieved, it becomes undecaying and unwithering,

Like and evergreen

In the beginning these three are separate;

As one, their subtle power is beyond the mind's grasp.

Only when they are completely integrated

Do we have the precious immortal medicine.

When they are separated, there is no power.

For the achieved one,

The seven orifices communicate with each other,

Each imparting its own subtle light.

Once you gain immortality,

Your body becomes light.

Your Inner Sun and Moon will shine

In the "Golden Court" of your life being.

You will glow with an auspicious light

And be filled with the most precious harmony.

[if you read this invocation time after time,

The subtle meaning of its wonderful principle

Will become apparent to you.]

[Taomeow]

Yup, this is consistent with what I'm talking about always --

integration, as opposed to fragmentation,

wholeness, as opposed to a hierarchy,

communication, as opposed to disconnection (on any level -- of the body and mind, of the houtian and xiantian, of xing and ming, of manifestations and the unmanifest),

and remembering, as opposed to forgetting,

are key taoist methods of cultivation. Poetic promises aside, this text contains many practical pointers in the right direction -- e.g.:

 

After a certain length of time, wholeness can be seen;

It will become the foundation of your spiritual empire.

 

The truth of immortality is dependent

On your integrated new life of wholeness.

 

In the beginning these three are separate;

As one, their subtle power is beyond the mind's grasp.

Only when they are completely integrated

Do we have the precious immortal medicine.

When they are separated, there is no power.

 

For the achieved one,

The seven orifices communicate with each other,

Each imparting its own subtle light.

 

These are the keys to the castle, the rest is PR.

[forestofclarity]

I wonder if the Taoist pope hangs out with the Buddhist pope!

 

Just an observation here of the last few posts, I believe we have to be mindful of the implications of saying, "This is what Taoists believe."

[Taomeow]

Taoism to me means following the rules of Nature. When you abide by such rules, you will reap the rewards of that.

 

Many of the same people who don't dare break the (arbitrary) rules of Man, will flagrantly violate the (real) rules of Nature by which life and the universe actually operate upon.

Most people see a red light and stop. They pay their taxes on time. Etc.

Yet they may have no problem scarfing down food products loaded with trans fatty acids that will clog their blood vessels. Not to speak of far more esoteric natural causes & effects.

 

The laws of Nature are largely unwritten and unseen to the casual eye...but no less important. So, Taoists have devised a science out of detecting these rules (many exceedingly subtle) and learned how to live accordingly to them - to fully maximize their personal potentials and opportunities in life.

Non-violation of the rules of Nature is where it's at, sure, and in this respect taoism is similar to shamanism, Shinto, or pagan religions, and distinctly different from paternalistic hierarchies that place yang, heaven, father, disembodied spirit, some mind ideal or other on top and in a position of power, superiority, control over yin, earth, mother, embodied life, actual being of live creatures. One whiff of that superiority-inferiority mindset and I know I'm not dealing with taoism, no matter what name the pyramid scheme calls itself.

[Stigweard]

Yup, this is consistent with what I'm talking about always --

integration, as opposed to fragmentation,

wholeness, as opposed to a hierarchy,

communication, as opposed to disconnection (on any level -- of the body and mind, of the houtian and xiantian, of xing and ming, of manifestations and the unmanifest),

and remembering, as opposed to forgetting,

are key taoist methods of cultivation. Poetic promises aside, this text contains many practical pointers in the right direction -- e.g.:

 

After a certain length of time, wholeness can be seen;

It will become the foundation of your spiritual empire.

 

The truth of immortality is dependent

On your integrated new life of wholeness.

 

In the beginning these three are separate;

As one, their subtle power is beyond the mind's grasp.

Only when they are completely integrated

Do we have the precious immortal medicine.

When they are separated, there is no power.

 

For the achieved one,

The seven orifices communicate with each other,

Each imparting its own subtle light.

 

These are the keys to the castle, the rest is PR.

You see, I knew we were agreeing with each all along

[exorcist_1699]

 

You mean buddhism.

Taoists don't call it nor see it as "entanglement." They see it as tao-in-motion, which is in no way secondary or inferior to tao-in-stillness, and call it that -- not with resentment but with appreciation and gratitude. Tao-in-motion is not "entanglement," it is "going along with the Way." Going against it consciously (i.e. alchemically rather than neurotically, out of greater ambitions than merely "living out one's years in enjoyment" rather than out of escapist get the hell outta here sentiments toward the world of tao manifestations) is just using an upgrade, or a better (or not even "better" but "different") model... like using a Mac when everyone else is stuck with Windows. (I use a Mac. Doesn't mean everybody else is "entangled..." ...or does it?... )

 

It seems Buddhism does not talk about the 5-element-circle. My view on this post-heavenly status/ arrangement that entangles us , of course ,is based on the Taoist classics: " Yin Fu Jin" ("陰符經"), not any of my invention . It is a pity that there is no good English translation of this deep-sight book .

 

Marx once said: " The point is about how to change the world, not just to explain why it is";

 

My attitude towards life is the same. Most Taoist masters repeatedly mention life is just "dew at dawn" or "foam and bubble on water" . People who aged more than 35 knows such sayings are nothing exaggerating . Especially you have a sick and unhealthy body...You especially understand and senses where Taoist power and value lies .

 

When people are fallen in a deep narrow cavern and are in great danger , and you know about the simple , effective steps of rescuing them out from a Rescue Manual , of course, you just speak it out ,you do not argue about what version , what color or who writes this Manual...

Edited January 14, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[Taomeow]

It seems Buddhism does not talk about the 5-element-circle. My view on this post-heavenly status/ arrangement that entangles us , of course ,is based on the Taoist classics: " Yin Fu Jin" ("陰符經"), not any of my invention . It is a pity that there is no good English translation of this deep-sight book .

 

What you presented, whether in your own words or repeating someone else's, constituted a very explicit superimposition of buddhist ideation over taoist graphics. A diagram, by itself, contains no such ideation -- it is a mere visual image, it doesn't include any explanations. So whenever these appear, it means someone has supplied them, and this someone may be a buddhist, a satanist, or a biomechanical fundamentalist -- a cat can look at the king, a buddhist can look at a taoist diagram. What either one will see in what they're looking at is a different matter altogether. When you tell me what you see, I know who's looking. It's much the way the famous South American shamanic healer Maria Sabina always sang and chanted about Jesus and the Blessed Virgin and Catholic saints but was actually using magic mushrooms to access them.

 

My attitude towards life is the same. Most Taoist masters repeatedly mention life is just "dew at dawn" or "foam and bubble on water" . People who aged more than 35 knows such sayings are nothing exaggerating . Especially you have a sick and unhealthy body...You especially understand and senses where Taoist power and value lies .

 

When people are fallen in a deep narrow cavern and are in great danger , and you know about the simple , effective steps of rescuing them out from a Rescue Manual , of course, you just speak it out ,you do not argue about what version , what color or who writes this Manual...

 

The sentence starting with "especially" needs an "if" somewhere, otherwise it sounds like a curse. (Mudra of protection. Touching the warding-off-evil talisman.)

 

What people see as having fallen, as simple effective steps of rescuing, etc., vary very widely. You believe being human means having fallen; I'm not all that sure. I tend to think it's the opposite -- NOT being human enough is having fallen. You think what you have is a Rescue Manual. Again, I'm not all that sure. I tend to think it's the opposite -- an extra push in the general direction of losing one's humanity. So I do try to differentiate between what pulls me out of a deep narrow cavern and what jams me deeper into it. Preferably in advance rather than post factum. Taoist sciences are big on prevention.

[~jK~]

Great discussion.

 

I've been fascinated with this diagram for years, but never dug nearly as deeply into it as this topic here.

 

One thing that drew me to this diagram immediately was it's striking similarity to the Jewish diagram of the Kabbalah.

 

Sean

 

My first teachers in Meditation & Yoga, from about 40 years ago, were both Jewish (brothers), with about 6 years at this place out in Colorado that specializes in Jewish archives. They sell books etc - some are v good.

http://bwtinc.org/default.aspx

 

I contacted the BWT a few months ago to see about ordering some material - they said no problem.

 

It is a historic fact that the Israelis have wandered the globe for many years - it seems they have also kept a library of information - including some time in China...

 

Edited January 15, 2010 by ~jK~