Free Will

[island]

Hi All

 

I would be interested to know what position Taoists, Buddhists and Eastern Philosophers take on the argument for Free Will?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hi All

 

I would be interested to know what position Taoists, Buddhists and Eastern Philosophers take on the argument for Free Will?

 

Well Buddhist don't believe in a self, so I guess that means there's no free will, just causes and conditions.

 

And Advaitnas, at least to my knowledge, think everything is a manifestation of Brahman, so they don't have free will either.

 

Not that I support or agree with either. .

[glooper23]

I think Taoists would say free will is the ability to follow or to not follow the Tao.

[3bob]

It takes will to surrender will.

 

and realitive will and the ability to not be driven about by all of the various influences is being practiced.

 

[River Gazer]

A mind can never fully conceive itself. The ebb and flow of your subconscious is beyond common fathom. Whether reality is an illogical bunch of choices, and cause and effect, it will never by a standard be relevant to you.

 

Logically speaking, cause and effect is the only logical way, but it will never matter. The average mind has difficulty watching their conscious mind, let alone the in fathomable complexity of the ten-thousand half-thoughts processing through the mind-below-the-mind

[Marblehead]

Well Buddhist don't believe in a self, so I guess that means there's no free will, just causes and conditions.

 

Hehehe. And we Philosophical Taoists believe in a self and strongly believe in 'free will'.

 

And BTW, Zoroastrianism, the first known mono-theistic religion, also defined 'free will' as the most important power of man. (We are free to do either good or evil. As initially established, the religion had only a god but had no devil. That would make it the first non-dualistic religion as well.)

 

Peace & Love!

[island]

Thanks so much for the replies.

[Ya Mu]

One can choose to have free will. But anyone who watches TV then purchased something probably gave up the choice of free will. Too many people usually don't exercise the choice and will just follow others.

[Marblehead]

One can choose to have free will. But anyone who watches TV then purchased something probably gave up the choice of free will. Too many people usually don't exercise the choice and will just follow others.

 

Valid point. Just as we will loose muscle if we do not physically exercise, we loose our free will if we do not exercise it.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sloppy Zhang]

So in another thread I mentioned these two videos:

 

Imagining the Tenth Dimension Pt 1

 

And:

 

Imagining the Tenth Dimension Pt 2

 

Basically, in the fourth dimension, past, present, and future are one. Since we are third dimension beings, we can't perceive the whole of a fourth dimensional object, so we can only see one cross section at a time- and that's the progression of time, past, present, and future.

 

That said, any choice you make has already been made.

 

It reminds me of the movie Matrix: Reloaded, where Neo is talking to the Oracle, and he says he doesn't know what choice to make, and she tells him he's already made the choice, his job now is to understand why he made it.

[Birch]

I think "free will" as we might conventionally describe it is very much something you can train yourself to have more of a chance of getting to. But the work that might need to be put in (as another poster mentioned) is still work. I think many people (including myself) refer to their free will as the capacity to not do something within a really (self)restricted system of options (dualistic in fact).

 

Mindfulness practice IMO will make this clearer.

 

Yoga also helps with this.

 

I believe in many practices the goal is unifying bodymind (or realising it is unified anyway). The "seat" of the "will" is often cited as "third chakra" - which is also where a sense of self seems to lie for me. Indeed when my ego feels bashed or hurt or scared, this is where I feel it physically.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

In general these days I consider free will to be something of an illusion. A quite convincing one mind you.

 

Take this example, a guy grows up in an abusive/violent family, guy gets a rather serious knock on the head, guy begins to abuse animals, guys regains feeling of lost power due to result of abuse(by killing an animal), guys actions escalates due to overriding emotional factors, guy progresses to serial killer status.

 

The above factors I have cited are the generally accepted psychological/physical surrounding of the development of a serial killer(made very very simple I might add).

 

Was it his fault? Did he have free will? If you are simply a conditioned result of the environment you grew up in, which psychology holds as true, and frankly speaking does seem to be true; then how can you ever be blamed for any wrong doing?

 

All you have is your overriding emotions juxtaposed to societies concept of morals. You either choose to go with your emotions or repress them. But even if you choose to repress them, thus, supposedly, exercising your free will, you are in fact, simply following the conditioning of your environment in some fashion. Where's this 'free will' often spoken of? It doesn't exist. The only thing 'free' about free will is you are free to choose that which you must.

 

If I were God, which I'm sure you all know I'm not, I would simply have to forgive everyone for everything they did 'wrong'. I would have no other choice, as they didn't have free will, they only had the illusion of free will. The game was already rigged, unless I could show that they chose that lifetime and environment specifically. Were I God I would still be in the wrong though, because they(for the most part)couldn't remember choosing that life.

 

The real question isn't free will, as in do I buy some bananas or apples today, the real question is 'do I express or repress', and how much of that decision is truly my decision or other.

 

And is there really such a thing as 'right or wrong', a Daoist would have to say there is no right or wrong, because right and wrong are purely subjective(ie. kill for yourself you're a murderer, kill for your country you're a hero). Things get rather dangerous after there is no right of wrong.

 

The term 'Free Will' is spin invented by societies too unsophisticated enough to be able to understand the development of the human mind, a form of black and white thinking were everyone can be slotted nicely into good guy/bad guy status without really having to deal with the issues they could neither understand or deal with.

[Marblehead]

Although that is a valid arguement Ninpo, but I do not accept it because, like you said, if that is true then no one would have to take responsibility for their actions, and this I cannot accept.

 

We must understand that we have free will, whether we actually do or not, so that we can cause people to take responsibility for their actions.

 

This species of primates has never allowed the individual to do whatever it wants to without accountability. The only way this can be inforced is to make it a given that each individual has free will and they had choices and that they chose to do this instead of that.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

That said, any choice you make has already been made.

Please provide supporting data for such beliefs.. i can find NO verifiable evidence this is an existent condition outside the imaginations of those 'choosing' to believe it..

 

Be well..

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Free Will? Do we hve it? I don't know... I think that is a CHOICE.

 

 

I am a practitioner, follower, educator, and upholder of the "Law of Free Will", which is plainly and simply to respect the consenting will and/or willful consent of all individuals, lest you forsake any potentially inherent rights thereof to free will.

 

To reiterate:

That which you do unto others, you physically speak into effect as condoned treatment upon your own person.

 

I shall reiterate again:

That which i have done to you, i forsake any right to disallow you to inflict upon me.

 

 

 

The law of free will protects all individuals who give consent to protect and respect the free will of others.

Those who follow the law of free will earn the protection of free will by protecting the free wills of others who also follow the law of free will.

 

 

The law of free will is exempt to no one, exclusive to all but willing participants, cannot be enforced upon any unwilling individual, and is universally binding to all individuals who wish to own and operate any level of free will.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Although that is a valid arguement Ninpo, but I do not accept it because, like you said, if that is true then no one would have to take responsibility for their actions, and this I cannot accept.

 

Exactly, because you can't accept it. You are a conditioned model of society. How about I bounce along and say I don't accept your conditioned model of society, it's my free will to do so. How about you say you can't accept if I have 'a thing' with your wife, but your wife says she accepts it just fine(just an example by the way). Who's wrong? And how about I say to you that your idea of me taking responsibility is restrictive to my freewill, now I cannot do what I want because you say it's 'wrong'. Where has my freewill gone? Where is the line that says everything is my responsibility if not societies conditioned view of acceptablity, which lets face it, changes as does fashion. 100 years ago were I a Chinese male it would be perfectly socially acceptable for me to have 3 wives, if I could afford them, now, not so. So why should I pay attention to that which is not real. So I can fit in? How about I have no desire to fit in?

 

(by the way, dont take the wife example in the wrong way, it was simply what came into my mind as I was typing, not an attack of any sorts)

 

 

We must understand that we have free will, whether we actually do or not, so that we can cause people to take responsibility for their actions.

 

This species of primates has never allowed the individual to do whatever it wants to without accountability. The only way this can be inforced is to make it a given that each individual has free will and they had choices and that they chose to do this instead of that.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Again, if I am accountable and will be punished, then 'free will' is not a real thing, it is an illusion. Free will with limitation is not free will, it's similar to the lovely Christian view 'God gave you free will.....BUT, if you do this you're going hell...Happy Christmas!'.

 

And how should we be held accountable for our actions that were, more than likely, based on a childhood we had no control over? Cut off a hand? Stoning? Prison? Death sentence? And how can I, or you, judge such a punishment when we have not lived that life? Is not the American constitution supposedly structured around the concept of 'freedom'? Is freedom by degrees freedom? I would say not.

 

Don't get me wrong Marbles, I'm not saying I want everyone running around shooting everyone, I'm just toying with the concept of free will, and I find it wanting.

 

Also, your idea of accountability is very confucian. Nothing wrong in that, but personally I've never really been able to reconcile confucianism with Daoism. Is your goal to uphold society and it's mores, or to be a Daoist? How about if being a Daoist contradicts societies mores.... I won't go as far to say murder... but I mean some other fairly common thing that is simply not acceptable to the society you're living in at the time. What would you do? Which path?

 

I know there are a lot of questions there Marblehead, I don't expect you to answer them all, they are more for pondering than anything else.

 

I gotta go to bed, or one particular element of society won't be best pleased with me.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Greetings..

 

 

Please provide supporting data for such beliefs.. i can find NO verifiable evidence this is an existent condition outside the imaginations of those 'choosing' to believe it..

 

Be well..

 

I don't really have "data", merely a few observations that I have taken.

 

1) If you believe theoretical physics about the whole dimension thing, our future selves already exist, we just haven't viewed that cross section of our lives yet. Living as three dimensional beings we can only see things at our level, and since the "future" has yet to cross our plane of existence, we have yet to view it. But if you think about it, our future selves already exist, and all the decisions we've made in the future have already happened- we just don't perceive them that way (please see at least part one of the video I linked to understand this part)

 

2) Rawn Clark wrote his article on his Eight Temples meditation project in 2002. He said that the meditation project started four years prior, in 1998. In his article, he mentions that people showed up for the meditation project essentially "from the future." So here, in 2010, if I decided to try his meditation project and go to the astral temple for the project, I would meet him and his students as they were going through the project in 1998. People in 1998 would see me as being from "the future", My 1998 self, who at the time wasn't even interested in meditation, hadn't even come close to discovering this meditation project, and was nowhere near close making the decision to do it. But my decision had already been made. (please see the link I provided above and peruse through his website, on the first page there's a link to the "Eight Temples Meditation" article, click on the flag for the language of the article that you want to read it)

***note*** I haven't done the Eight Temples meditation project myself. But if I decide to do it, the decision would have already been made, and if I decide to not do it, that decision has also already been made.

 

 

Of course, this could all be wrong. Theoretical physics may be wrong, and Rawn Clark could just be seeing some funky astral disruptions that only look like me from 2010.

 

I am merely offering it to this thread as another aspect of the issue. People always think of "free will vs. other option". It's always a linear type thing, with branches or forks in the road. You go down one branch, and arrive at another, you go down one fork in the road and meet another, and you make choices as you go, unless there is some higher power which has a plan to dictate where you go.

 

But what if you've already made the choice? You have free will, but you don't have free will. You have both, yet neither. Seems more Taoist to me, so I like it Plus it totally blows your mind to think about, so it's fun

 

Unless it doesn't blow your mind and you think it's garbage, in which case...... feel free to move along from this post! But you've already made the choice, to believe it, to not believe it, to have an open mind towards it, to shut it all out

Edited June 14, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

 

I gotta go to bed, or one particular element of society won't be best pleased with me.

 

Excellent response, questions and considerations.

 

First, I'm not married so I did not take offense. Otherwise, in the scenario you presented I would probably take one of my swords to the both of you. Cause and effect. Hehehe.

 

Yes, perhaps you felt a bit of coufucianism in my previous post. But remember, I am retired Army so twenty years of my life were based on that type of philosophy. And beside that, I am a rather conservative person philosophically so that will show in my words as well.

 

I agree, free will in not total free will - there are limits. So many variables that they are even too numerous to attempt to list.

 

But still, within the limits we each find ourself I suggest that we still have a great many choices we can make concerning our own life and who we interact with other members of our society and with the earth in general.

 

I agree that, generally speaking, the higher one is on the social ladder (within their own society) the more free will they will have, the more choices they will have. But even those lower on the ladder have the free will to revolt against the authorities if their free will (freedom) is being limited far too much.

 

But, I will agree that there are many people on this planet who basically have no free will - they have no choices. And I think that is very sad indeed.

 

I believe that Taoist philosophy is based on the concept that humans have free will. I have no conflict with my Taoist beliefs and the belief in the concept of free will.

 

And I still hold to the understanding that we are all responsible for our actions and if we violate the laws of our society we are to be held responsible by our society.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Life has revealed freewill to be the instrument of its own exploration.. without which, randomness and spontaneity are not possible, and.. randomness and spontaneity are the variables that reveal ones 'true 'nature'.. We/us/Life exist as Independently Functioning Versions of Oneness, for its purpose of experiencing its own existence, for understanding its own 'Nature'.. without the unpredictable outcomes of freewil and choice, Oneness would reveal to itself a mechanistic passionless drone, a cog in a machine unable to affect its own existence.. and Life clearly contradicts that false result by brilliantly demonstrating the abundant creativity of the Human Experience, even if we sometimes do not approve of that creative result..

 

Attachment to theoretical physics or ancient models of a Cosmos beyond the grasp of primitive understandings serve to secure one's place in the mechanism that aleviates the experiencer from accepting responsibility for their own existence.. suspend ALL beliefs, study and observe Life from an unprejudiced perspective.. there is only one conclusion, freewill and choice are the vehicles of existence, the options of acceptance or rejection in each of the relationships with Life we experience.. just as you will choose to accept or reject the merits of this opinion i have posted..

 

Be well..

[Sloppy Zhang]

Greetings..

 

Life has revealed freewill to be the instrument of its own exploration.. without which, randomness and spontaneity are not possible, and.. randomness and spontaneity are the variables that reveal ones 'true 'nature'.. We/us/Life exist as Independently Functioning Versions of Oneness, for its purpose of experiencing its own existence, for understanding its own 'Nature'.. without the unpredictable outcomes of freewil and choice, Oneness would reveal to itself a mechanistic passionless drone, a cog in a machine unable to affect its own existence.. and Life clearly contradicts that false result by brilliantly demonstrating the abundant creativity of the Human Experience, even if we sometimes do not approve of that creative result..

 

Attachment to theoretical physics or ancient models of a Cosmos beyond the grasp of primitive understandings serve to secure one's place in the mechanism that aleviates the experiencer from accepting responsibility for their own existence.. suspend ALL beliefs, study and observe Life from an unprejudiced perspective.. there is only one conclusion, freewill and choice are the vehicles of existence, the options of acceptance or rejection in each of the relationships with Life we experience.. just as you will choose to accept or reject the merits of this opinion i have posted..

 

Be well..

 

In my humble opinion, a lot of the "consequences" for accepting various types of world views are assumptions made on our parts that we attach.

 

For example-

 

1) Concept: you've already made a decision

Conclusion: life would be dull and boring, we'd just be another mechanism without any responsibility.

 

My thoughts: that concept does not, in my mind, automatically create that conclusion.

 

If I have already made every decision that I am faced with, that doesn't, in my mind, make my life dull and boring. It doesn't free me from consequences or responsibility of my decisions, and it doesn't mean that I don't have to go through a decision making process. For me, it's actually kind of cool to think that the "future" has already happened kinda like sci-fi, makes life more interesting for me.

 

So where does spontaneity come into play? You can still be spontaneous. You can still make some whirlwind decision.... but that decision has already been made. But you are making a new decision. But that decision has already been made. So you make a new decision. It's a constant paradox. Both are true. But neither are true. I love paradoxes. I always have.

 

Random chance can still happen, and you'll never see it coming. But at the same time, it's already happened. You can still be passionate and have a love for everything, even though you've already encountered it.

 

Maybe this is touching on an aspect of "the great Now" that I've seen mentioned in a few places. There is no past or future, just now. To say it's already happened is somewhat inaccurate, because it is happening in the present. You are your future self NOW. Your decisions are being made NOW, the decisions you make 5 years from now are happening NOW. They've already happened which is what got you here NOW.

 

Maybe it's because I don't always think logically, and enjoy (not) doing so I am able to accept paradoxes, and that all possibilities happen simultaneously.

 

Same thing with the thought that:

 

2) Concept: there's no good or evil

Conclusion: people are free to do whatever they want

 

I don't necessarily think that there is some ultimate good or evil out there. But at the same time I don't think that it entitles people to do whatever they want. There ARE people out there who make that conclusion, and do horrible things to themselves and/or others. But I do not think that the concept definitely makes it so that the conclusion always happens. No offense to anyone, but I find it rather silly that "well if people do whatever they want and hurt everyone then morals fly out the window" is the counter argument that ALWAYS comes up when someone suggests "hey, there might not be any absolute good or evil in the universe!" It's just.... can we be a bit more original?

 

You can say I have "morals", but I don't know where they come from. For me, they are internally there. Maybe it's cultural conditioning. Maybe it's my own subconscious mind at work. Maybe they are instilled there naturally. Maybe they do not exist and are constructions of my own mind. I think everyone should look within and find their own morals, but at the same time, I don't really think that you should just say, "oh, I looked inward and found my own morals, lying, cheating, and stealing are okay with me!" Maybe they just go against my own morals? Maybe a universal sense, I don't know.

 

However, I just don't think that a lot of the conclusions that people make, and more specifically you, TzuJanLi, always necessarily follow from the given concept.

 

 

 

 

I hope that post made sense. It's hard for me to convey what I mean when it comes to this, because it's very abstract. It's not one or the other. It's not sitting on the fence. It's not a shade of gray.

Edited June 15, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Birch]

This is such a cool thread!

 

How about what I just figured up. As follows. Free will has nothing to do with any of these consciousness systems (because consciousness may very well be its own undoing;-))

 

Plus, one (oh, ok, I'm referring to myself;-)) can be "free-willing" in some aspects and absolutely not in others. But how much of each is actually acting on any situation? I had a fun experience the other day that proved it to me. It was changing keyboards on a computer from one sort to another.

So is it potentially a sliding scale? I'd say yeah. Maybe not all of the things are "important" (read back to the idea of looking at the effects rather than the will, this is borne out by some social science dogma, basically we don't don't care about belief but we very much do care about the effects of such.)

[Spectrum]

I wonder what if any relationship exists between 'free will' and 'destiny' ...

 

Or rephrased 'the choice to choose or the will to do it' (thanks Alex) and Quantum Measurement Paradoxes.

 

Can we measure our position and at the same time chart our motion through life?

 

What is Time

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

By: Sloppy Zhang

For me, it's actually kind of cool to think that the "future" has already happened kinda like sci-fi, makes life more interesting for me.

By: Sloppy Zhang

1) Concept: you've already made a decision

Conclusion: life would be dull and boring, we'd just be another mechanism without any responsibility.

 

My thoughts: that concept does not, in my mind, automatically create that conclusion.

Hi Sloppy Zhang: In the two quotes of your post, above.. can you see how you may have "already made a decision" that 'sci-fi is cool and that model suits you, and are trying to justify that decision?

 

I have no "conclusion" about "dull and boring".. i am just observing what 'is'.. i am certain that Life offers no evidence that we have 'no freewill or choices'.. those are conceptual ponderings built on "if/then" suppositions that have no supporting evidence in Life.. It is my practice to respect consistency and practical applications of conceptual ponderings, as such, and having pondered this same subject long ago.. i have set the issue aside in the event new evidence might reveal something i have overlooked.. your fondness for "sci-fi", hasn't inspired me to reconsider the possibility that Life has happend prior to the existent 'Now' in which it unfolds..

 

Fantasy is a remarkable entertainment, it inspires great imaginings and eloquent theoretical possibilities, but.. the existent reality, tangible and verifiable, the one right here, right now.. this 'reality' simply blows 'fantasy' out of the water.. no fantasy can compare to Living the Life that you ARE.. or, as Ram Das said: "Be Here Now".. it's just that simple.

 

Be well..

[Sloppy Zhang]

Greetings..

 

 

 

Hi Sloppy Zhang: In the two quotes of your post, above.. can you see how you may have "already made a decision" that 'sci-fi is cool and that model suits you, and are trying to justify that decision?

 

I have no "conclusion" about "dull and boring".. i am just observing what 'is'.. i am certain that Life offers no evidence that we have 'no freewill or choices'.. those are conceptual ponderings built on "if/then" suppositions that have no supporting evidence in Life.. It is my practice to respect consistency and practical applications of conceptual ponderings, as such, and having pondered this same subject long ago.. i have set the issue aside in the event new evidence might reveal something i have overlooked.. your fondness for "sci-fi", hasn't inspired me to reconsider the possibility that Life has happend prior to the existent 'Now' in which it unfolds..

 

Fantasy is a remarkable entertainment, it inspires great imaginings and eloquent theoretical possibilities, but.. the existent reality, tangible and verifiable, the one right here, right now.. this 'reality' simply blows 'fantasy' out of the water.. no fantasy can compare to Living the Life that you ARE.. or, as Ram Das said: "Be Here Now".. it's just that simple.

 

Be well..

 

I'm not trying to justify anything. I see what I see just the same as you.

 

This is something I put in my post:

 

Maybe this is touching on an aspect of "the great Now" that I've seen mentioned in a few places. There is no past or future, just now. To say it's already happened is somewhat inaccurate, because it is happening in the present. You are your future self NOW. Your decisions are being made NOW, the decisions you make 5 years from now are happening NOW. They've already happened which is what got you here NOW.

 

Just didn't know if you saw it, and I reposted it when you mentioned the "unfolding "Now""

 

I can't say any more than I've already said.

 

I see your point about making decisions and trying to justify what I want to be true. Believe me, I've learned that lesson in a very hard way.

 

I see what I see.

 

You see what you see.

 

Maybe we see something different? I don't know. That's the issue that's a topic of my interest right now, but it has nothing to do with this thread!

 

I've said all I can say.

Edited June 15, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Lucky7Strikes]

Let go. The mandala is already perfect. .

Edited June 15, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes