Free Will

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited June 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

So the Buddha's ultimate reality is different then from everything else? All the Buddhists end up at the end of time in a different space/time? Man, you did drink the Kool Aid...

 

Buddhas, not necessarily Buddhists and each Buddha is individual and will manifest differently or even manifest many different individual mind streams according to their individual accumulations. At the end of a cosmic eon, they stay awake and don't get re-absorbed into the blissful substratum that everyone else believes is the absolute Truth. They continue to manifest into other universes add infinitum.

 

The universe is so much more complicated and chaotic than the oneness philosophy thinks it is.

 

There is no ultimate reality, there is only relativity.

[Vajrahridaya]

So the Buddha's ultimate reality is different then from everything else? All the Buddhists end up at the end of time in a different space/time? Man, you did drink the Kool Aid...

 

Buddhas, not necessarily Buddhists and each Buddha is individual and will manifest differently or even manifest many different individual mind streams according to their individual accumulations.

 

The universe is so much more complicated and chaotic than the oneness philosophy thinks it is.

 

There is no ultimate reality, there is only relativity.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

So the Buddha's have an 'exclusive club' in relative reality, so to speak. And your Buddha brothers are at the 'top' of that club, sorta like stadium boxes, looking down on all other lesser Buddhas, followed then by Christ, Brahman, etc. Man, I need to join that club. It's like "Turbo Buddhism", you know what I mean? Like it's the varsity, and every non-Buddha is definitely junior varsity. I want in that club!!!

[nac]

All this discussion goes to show is that subjective realization is relative, not absolute.

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

You are sadly uninformed and terminally attached to your own imaginings.. your use of the word 'meditation' reveals your ignorance of its meaning and functionality.. your constricted view that "dependent origination/emptiness" represents 'truth', further reveals your inability to comprehend reality.

 

Again, you think based upon your limited experience that there is an ultimate reality.

 

Please understand that invoking 'Buddha' as an appeal to Authority, has no meaning.. Buddha was just another 'meditator' of the sort you disparaged in the paragraph above, and one prone to believing his own dark imaginings..

 

This is your opinion, based upon limited understanding of his teachings. So, your experience of the "reality" of Buddhism is based upon the limits of your experience thus far.

 

Neither 'God', nor Buddha, nor 'Buddhahood' has any meaning.. they are 'descriptions' of a direct experience with the 'Totality of Reality', and no further descriptions are valid.. the very best we can do is 'point' the most simple and most direct 'way' for another BEing to have their own direct experience with the 'Totality of Reality'.. that 'pointing' does not include 'paths or rituals', it is most beneficial as 'Life' itself, then, as the Clarity that reveals the "ISness" of it all..

 

Still clinging to a "reality" that things are. Uh hu...

 

This is the sad nonsense the religions have pandered for thousands of years.. the mindless lullabye that puts sentient beings to sleep.. I, AM awake, not blundering through rituals hoping to find a way to a better reincarnation, while cheering for the Buddha Team.. THAT, is the trap that keeps you in cycles of repeated maddness, designed insure lifetimes of devout patrons..

 

You completely mis-understand. Your martial arts is a bunch of rituals with particular goals as well.

 

Liberation is a choice away, a single instance of pure Clarity disolves ALL 'paths'.. it is the attachment to the 'Path' that leads you astray.. i cannot be more blunt, and more clear.. you have invested so much in your 'conversion' you will not see your own Liberation.. so, enjoy Life in the prison of Buddha's shadow, no one but 'you' can escape..

 

Be well..

 

You don't understand my understanding of Buddhism. I am not attached to some path. I explain through a language. But, in the universe all things originate inter-dependently but are empty of inherent substance... that substance you call Tao.

 

You don't see as clearly as you passionately pronounce. You are trapped in a perception of me and my words and don't get the meaning.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Unbelievable. Do I sense a realized Buddha here? I'm thinking "yes". A very special being. Very special. And so misunderstood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[nac]

TheSongsofDistantEarth has a point. Some of these people have decided not to listen to us no matter what we say. Do you think it would be skillful to drop each discussion after a few posts? Or maybe we could compile a huge Buddhism FAQ, and simply direct each recurring misconception to the relevant entry.

 

PS. I mean, even discussions lightly touching upon the subject of Buddhism have become emotionally charged to the point of utter irrationality. We should be looking at long-term solutions.

Edited June 18, 2010 by nac

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

How is that?

 

I should perhaps correct myself.

 

Walk down the street in the summer. Oh hot pants, oh mini skirts....oh oh oh. How Asia ever became the epicenter for Buddhism and monks I'll never know! I'm thinking it was an extreme reaction to an extreme.

 

 

I see the Buddhist/Daoist argument has started again. Good luck with that!

[C T]

 

Walk down the street in the summer. Oh hot pants, oh mini skirts....oh oh oh. How Asia ever became the epicenter for Buddhism and monks I'll never know! I'm thinking it was an extreme reaction to an extreme.

 

Your implied observations suddenly made me think how much i miss home. Ninpo, you're being a naughty boy....

 

To answer your question, it might be helpful to reflect how lotuses seem to thrive in muddy waters - now, this is not hinting at all that the monks are the lotuses, btw - in all fairness, everything is interdependent, right? haha (i can see TJL cringing and grimacing in aversion to this word!)

 

"Within the mud the lotuses grow and flower... thus the lotuses reveal the true nature of the muddy pools; The muddy pools, likewise, reflect and reveal the true nature of the lotuses. Each nurturing the other, as if in a dance of simple, natural unfolding... and neither is good or bad - alas tis beings' discriminatory biases that bring forth the myriad things."

Edited June 18, 2010 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

Eh? Why would the non-existence of an absolute Self entail the lack of free will? It simply doesn't follow. I think some of you are placing too much trust on untrained intuition.

 

 

Really? You think so?

 

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Your implied observations suddenly made me think how much i miss home. Ninpo, you're being a naughty boy....

 

 

...It's just so much more fun.

 

 

 

To answer your question, it might be helpful to reflect how lotuses seem to thrive in muddy waters

 

 

I see your point. However, I never see the muddy waters here, all I can ever see for miles and miles are flower beds of the most exotic variety.

 

Free will is troublesome in Asia.

[Marblehead]

Oh, now I know, Mr. Ong Bak, ya, he's great. Only seen two of his movies, but I like him a lot. I'd like to see you jumping over your car Marblehead.

 

Yeah. That's him. Hehehe. I would like to see me jump over my car too.

 

Too much information!!!

 

Yes, I have been accused of that before. But at least it leaves no more questions.

 

Come back to Asia, one walk down the street will sort out that erection problem in no time at all!!!

 

I truely wish I could. I have never been to Mainland China and that has, for a very long time, been a ploace I would really love to see.

 

Yes, I remember those days of walking the streets and looking at all the lovely ladies. (I do still look, BTW.)

 

(I think that's called exercising my free will. [i had to get back on topic somehow.])

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

How is that?

 

Actually, all I would have to do is stop taking my high blood pressure medicine. Everything would be natural after that. (My doctor would get mad at me though.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

All this discussion goes to show is that subjective realization is relative, not absolute.

 

Yep. As one Buddhist told me when I first joined this board - everything is relative.

 

And I have always said that there are no absolutes, not even in 'pure' science, because everything is changing. That's the beauty of the Dynamic Tao.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

We should be looking at long-term solutions.

 

The only long-term solution is tolerance. All (valid) paths are designed to guide one toward a fuller and riched (not monetary) life while on this planet.

 

Can we say for absolute what happens after death? Some think they know but I will always question their understanding.

 

We know for sure that we have this life to live. Tolerance and understanding will dramatically reduce conflict. Without conflict we have a much better chance of attaining contentment.

 

Doesn't really matter what path we follow. We each have a journey to make. We have free will that enables us to walk peacefully, hand in hand, or walk alone. The destination is death. Do we die content or do we die still wanting, desiring and striving for more?

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Your implied observations suddenly made me think how much i miss home. Ninpo, you're being a naughty boy....

 

To answer your question, it might be helpful to reflect how lotuses seem to thrive in muddy waters - now, this is not hinting at all that the monks are the lotuses, btw - in all fairness, everything is interdependent, right? haha (i can see TJL cringing and grimacing in aversion to this word!)

 

"Within the mud the lotuses grow and flower... thus the lotuses reveal the true nature of the muddy pools; The muddy pools, likewise, reflect and reveal the true nature of the lotuses. Each nurturing the other, as if in a dance of simple, natural unfolding... and neither is good or bad - alas tis beings' discriminatory biases that bring forth the myriad things."

 

You handled that really, really well. But I still like the vision of ladies in hot pants rather than muddy water. Just the way I am, I guess.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

...It's just so much more fun.

 

 

 

 

I see your point. However, I never see the muddy waters here, all I can ever see for miles and miles are flower beds of the most exotic variety.

 

Free will is troublesome in Asia.

I think i get the drift Ninpo

 

Spent a year in Hong Kong - visited Macau twice. The first visit was meant to be a day trip. A day turned into a week. The second visit is simply history forcing repetition. The food... man, heavenly, and the flowers... - nah, lets not say too much (ninja with sunshades!)

Edited June 18, 2010 by CowTao

[C T]

You handled that really, really well. But I still like the vision of ladies in hot pants rather than muddy water. Just the way I am, I guess.

 

Peace & Love!

Why thank you kind sir!

 

Tis the murky waters of the mind that make them pants look hot! :lol:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

everything is interdependent, right? haha (i can see TJL cringing and grimacing in aversion to this word!)

Hi CowTao: Why would i cringe or grimace?? Everything IS mutually interdependent, i have never understood otherwise.. of course, i also understand that there are Independently Functioning Versions of Mutual Interdependency.. Now, i imagine the grimace and cringe might be finding its way back to you..

 

Be well..

[Lucky7Strikes]

Greetings..

 

 

Hi CowTao: Why would i cringe or grimace?? Everything IS mutually interdependent, i have never understood otherwise.. of course, i also understand that there are Independently Functioning Versions of Mutual Interdependency.. Now, i imagine the grimace and cringe might be finding its way back to you..

 

Be well..

Everyone approaches the understanding of interdepedence in a different manner. Each of our worlds have different histories of development and attachment, or rather--if you want to address the issue of time--different aspects.

 

And for some poetics on this:

 

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/jk_path.html

Edited June 18, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

Hi CowTao: Why would i cringe or grimace?? Everything IS mutually interdependent, i have never understood otherwise.. of course, i also understand that there are Independently Functioning Versions of Mutual Interdependency.. Now, i imagine the grimace and cringe might be finding its way back to you..

 

Be well..

 

Where does the Tao fit in this then if everything is inter-dependent?

[Marblehead]

Where does the Tao fit in this then if everything is inter-dependent?

 

You're not going to start that again, are you?

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Where does the Tao fit in this then if everything is inter-dependent?

Hi CowTao: One of my mentors, many years ago, explained 'Tao' in such simple and profound terms that i can't find a contradiction, and it is my skeptical nature to find contradictions.. so, this represents 'my' understandings.. and, i sincerely hope you will contemplate the practical profundity of the description..

 

"Tao", as a direct translation means 'road', or 'way'.. the reference using "Tao" to describe the 'mystical', is not itself 'mystical'.. rather than use some name or descriptive term that might be turned into a religion or philosophy, the word 'Tao' was used.. it was used to imply the 'Way' things 'are'.. nothing more and nothing less.. in that simplicity is the entire process of the Cosmos.. in the 'way' things 'ARE', is the very 'being' of things, the 'isness' of things.. there is no preference or discrimination, 'by' the 'way' things are, because preference and discrimination are aspects 'of' the 'way'..

 

'Tao' is that which 'IS', and.. it is that which reveals 'That which IS'.. it is simply and profoundly, the 'way' things are.. Tao "fits" everywhere because it IS everywhere.. it is very unfortunate that the word 'Tao' became so entangled in the 'politics of understanding'..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

 

'Tao' is that which 'IS', and.. it is that which reveals 'That which IS'.. it is simply and profoundly, the 'way' things are.. Tao "fits" everywhere because it IS everywhere.. it is very unfortunate that the word 'Tao' became so entangled in the 'politics of understanding'..

 

Be well..

 

This is basically "monism". All things are one thing. This is what the Buddha called the mis-understanding of experience interpreted as Eternalism. This is why you don't understand what the Buddha taught, because you are clinging to a supreme source and background to all of existence that shines from it's own side and which makes all things possible and is in fact all things in it's shining.

 

This is contrary to how the cosmos actually works on deeper levels. Though your view and interpretation of experience is a part of the universe and part of how it works, it's an incomplete view that does not lead to total clarity. The experiences that support your view are considered mis-cognitions or mis-interpretations of spiritual experience that merely lead to higher rebirth but not genuine liberation from the egg of Samsaric existence.

 

All that you have said I have heard before, and I have upheld before as the truth of things. I used to agree with you TzuJanLi. But, I had a deeper experience that showed a deeper view and interpretation of the very same spiritual experiences that you interpret internally beyond concept in the way you just pronounced. I only came to this experience through the influence of the Shakya Muni having taken birth and taught the "Sanatana Dharma". Dharma also is translated at times as "the way".

 

Take care.