Free Will

[hyok]

I just scrolled through every post without reading anything. Free will, bitches.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

^ WOOH! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!! ^ ^

 

 

 

 

It's a spiritual path with a specific goal, specific outcomes for the individual mind stream. I've never thought of it as a religion in the Western sense but a tradition of methods used specifically for the outcome of completely awakening one's self to the nature of everything.

 

Ah, yes, however by organizing specific practices, one deprives the self of the diversity of finding and engaging in the correct processes.

 

The "taught" and "learned" path are confused by organized effort.

 

Not every path teaches with the same results.

 

There is no "only one way" either.

 

 

 

The goal of shop class and Buddha Dharma are very different, unless one is using shop class in conjunction with dharma contemplation. But this would be in conjunction with vipassana, or Dzogchen practice of integrating the state of Rigpa with every day ordinary life.

naming things gives being to them and creates fear, why not just let these things-which-are-not-things simply be in their isness without name?

 

we have plenty enough words to describe our ways of life without naming them. is [why] your own name not sufficient?

 

Learn what the Buddha taught and realize it first. Even after the Buddha realized the nature of things, he still taught the Dharma in specific ways never wavering from the 4 marks which sets the Buddha Dharma as different from other spiritual traditions.

 

I do not disagree with what the Buddha taught

 

I find that everything that the buddha has taught, which i have read so far, has generally agreed with my personal experiences, although there are some differences of perception, for example a lotus to a pine tree. truly the symbols are no different, but our names, footsteps, paths, and strides are. they are as different as a lotus and a pine tree, and yet their symbols, practices, and fruits remain generally alike.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, yes, however by organizing specific practices, one deprives the self of the diversity of finding and engaging in the correct processes.

 

 

You will not get liberation by following your own habit patterns ingrained over countless lifetimes. You will only realize liberation by following the teachings and guidance of those already liberated. Those that see objectively because they are not attached to a self.

 

The "taught" and "learned" path are confused by organized effort.

 

One find's clarity through the example of the clear, not the muddled. Group effort with group intention towards the same goal brings about a powerful movement of energy that clarifies if the goal is made clear through learning from those that exist as mirrors of the highest truths.

 

 

 

There is no "only one way" either.

 

The cosmos only works one way. Everything originates dependently and is empty of inherent existence. There is no inherent Tao, unless one thinks of the Tao as the way things flow mutually dependent upon each other without inherent beingness as some Chan Masters translate the Tao to mean. Not some non-conceptual essence that is the background for all things. This type of mysteriousness is a reflection of ignorance and a lack of investigation.

 

 

naming things gives being to them and creates fear, why not just let these things-which-are-not-things simply be in their isness without name?

 

More muddled poetic nonsense. Lets understand how things work and see the particulars in how they are caused and how they effect endlessly through an awareness made open and pristine, clear and free through the practices handed down by the realized, not the ignorant.

 

we have plenty enough words to describe our ways of life without naming them. is [why] your own name not sufficient?

 

Through studying the mind with the guidance of mind masters, you can understanding the particulars of how the mind functions and how the body comes into process from subtler dimensions. You see how your self experience is created through endless karmic links, just as the individual self that creates the individual process is created as well by a mixture of inner and outer add infinitum. Study some Abhidharma! You can unravel the knotted seed of unconscious existence through the mind pointing of the truly liberated, not by ones own bound ignorance. As the mind unravels itself by going from body (dense) practice to voice (energy) practice to mind (nature of emptiness) directly, through the guidance of "right view" the first of the 8 fold noble path, you can see how it's not only meditation that reveals the truth of things. From physical, to energetic to emptiness, one realizes fullness... only by the guidance of the liberated, not the bound.

 

I do not disagree with what the Buddha taught

 

Then you should learn about it as you don't seem to know much about what he taught except through some passing passages taken out of context.

 

I find that everything that the buddha has taught, which i have read so far, has generally agreed with my personal experiences, although there are some differences of perception, for example a lotus to a pine tree. truly the symbols are no different, but our names, footsteps, paths, and strides are. they are as different as a lotus and a pine tree, and yet their symbols, practices, and fruits remain generally alike.

 

Then find a truly liberated lineage and get transmission and humble yourself under the guidance of a true master/disciple relationship. Otherwise it's all just lip service.

 

It's the same in martial arts if you truly wish to learn, you need transmission from a truly skilled lineage, and that energy supports.

 

Everyone travels the same path uniquely... of course. But, it takes a master of emptiness to see fully how and where another is bound from within and guide someone in a way that is particular to the individuals sensibilities.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

 

There is no "only one way" either.

 

 

I do not disagree with what the Buddha taught

 

I find that everything that the buddha has taught, which i have read so far, has generally agreed with my personal experiences, although there are some differences of perception, for example a lotus to a pine tree. truly the symbols are no different, but our names, footsteps, paths, and strides are. they are as different as a lotus and a pine tree, and yet their symbols, practices, and fruits remain generally alike.

Hi Stoner,

 

I like the way you present your views. One gets whiffs of freshness in some of the things you have said, and that's nice. I was actually inspired to offer a perspective in return, which i hope will, in its own small way, fit in to your understanding.

 

As some might know, the Buddhist path can be fairly pragmatic. In many ways, it shares many commonalities with the Taoist path in terms of philosophical deductions and approaches. Very seldom does the practice of either paths impinge on personal freedom, on the contrary, both paths contain many keys that will unlock self-imposed limitations with all its ugly side-effects.

 

The wisdom that can be extracted within each one are not so much "Truths" as in they more resemble "recipes" - hence a question like, 'Is this the Truth' becomes irrelevant. As with recipes, its rather silly to ask whether they contain any Truths - instead one ought to ponder whether they work or not, or will they bring forth the desired results? And the only way to fully grasp the workability of any given recipe is to 'bake the cake and eat it'. Obviously, as evident to many, there are a few here on this forum who have made it their mission to degrade Buddhist practitioners by labeling them dogmatic parrots and what not. Surely these individuals are decrying Buddhist recipes in the same manner as those who critique food without even realizing the fundamentals of how recipes come about, nor their purpose.

 

Since i have not had the good fortune of practicing the Taoist arts, i cannot ascribe to its efficacy much, nor can i point to what its lacking, but insofar as Buddhism is concerned, its 'recipes', mostly driven by practitioners (like Vaj, for example), who, thru practice and insight, become like inspired Bakers who are largely interested in experimentations in the bakery, creating and making known to others the fruits of their hard work, and at the same time, based on their own reflective wisdoms respectively, both the Baker and the Buddhist (could be a Buddhist Baker too ) continually prove and improve upon their discoveries.

 

Just reading recipe books does not make one a good Baker or Chef. In this sense you are absolutely correct - one should know when to lay down the 'books/names' and get down to business without too much attachment to dogma. One can indeed learn more about meditation in half hour of sitting practice than putting in a year's effort in studying meditation journals and other related doctrines. Of course, for those who are more academic or scholastically inclined and have the appetite to match, delving into the depths of the Pali Canon, for example, can be an inspirational journey in itself.

 

The fact is not everyone shares the same excitement or even passing interest in Buddhist 'recipes' - just as in the culinary world, discussions about baking recipes will normally light up the eyes of Bakers only, and generally do not hold any thrill nor have the same sort of effect on an Asian Wok Chef in Tokyo Joe's Takeout.

 

Being overly critical of any single thing do occasionally throw up some strange but valuable insights, but these moments are few and far between. Moreover, i have yet to see one statue erected in the name of a well-known critic. Minor philosophical considerations aside, i do tend to favor less confrontations, which leads me to conclude that perhaps more Philosophers ought to take up the art of Dessert-making....

Edited June 20, 2010 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

Hi all,

 

I propose that there exists a middle way which transcends both free will and determination.

 

Upon what do we base our choices? Pleasure and pain.

 

I actually hold to that concept (pleasure and pain) although I rarely speak of it. But it is a fact, I think that nearly all of us prefer pleasure to pain and therefore most conduct their life according to either seeking pleasure or avoiding pain.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Vajrahridaya: At what point does your ego's greatly embellished self-image realize that your brand of 'Evangelizing Buddhism', is detrimental to whatever wisdoms Buddha may have handed down? Simply put, you poison Buddha's message with your incompetent understandings and your trivial attempts to pretend you do understand.. you, and your ilk, represent the last, most demeaning aspects of ego that Buddha discarded, and.. sifting through the Buddha's trash, you deceive yourself with discovered trash you claim as treasure.. there is no 'loving-kindness' in your intentions, you prance around with with feigned learning and pretentious conversions as if it had 'meaning', it doesn't. You are an embarassment to any respectable Buddhist, and i know many.

 

While i strongly disagree with your understandings of Buddhism, and your juvenile approach to sincere dialogue, you are a child of the Universe, so i wish you well..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

so i wish you well..

 

You have many habits of hypocritical expression. Greetings... insult, insult, insult... be well.

 

 

You could use a systematic approach to your own mind.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Vaj, you seem to repeat the same patterns with different people here over many months...what is the point of preaching here? You seem to think you are doing some service, but I agree, you reflect poorly on Buddhism and turn off lots of people. I know, I know, supposedly there is a group of people here who PM you and support your efforts to ram your brand of the dharma down everyone's throats, but I really rather doubt that there is more than one or two others who support you in your egotistical embarrassing spectacle. Actually, it seems that you are the common denominator in all of the scuffles and kerfuffles and dustups we have here. But I can already envision your response to this, it's always the same. But I wonder what you get out of creating division and conflict here over and over? I know you think you are approaching Buddhahood, but there really is something wrong with your forum behavior. You sure get into it with lots of people for being such a "realized being".

Edited June 20, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

You have many habits of hypocritical expression. Greetings... insult, insult, insult... be well.

 

 

 

You could use a systematic approach to your own mind.

No, there is nothing hypocritical, i greet ALL who may read the post, then perhaps a specific reply.. the "insult" is invited by the 'insult' of redundancy, where such redundancy has been expressly rejected.. originally, i was fascinated by your beliefs, that sentient beings were so gullible.. but, the insipid repetition, even after polite refusals, eventually end up as insults, why? because you interupt productive discussions with irrelevant, univited and unwanted input, and you are consistently doing the same thing.. myself, and others, would really rather have civil discussions without having to deal with deviant Buddhist Evangelists at every turn.. again, i say: you are your own worst enemy, and a shockingly poor representative of respectable Buddhism..

 

And, i close with "Be well" in genuine sincerity.. as dull and vexing as you are, you ARE Life itself.. you are a Child of the Universe, whom i wish well.. by that wish, i hope you will have a realization of the ill-will you generate and reflect on how your claim of 'Buddha-nature' is soiled by your intentionally mean-spirited posts.. but, sincerely..

 

Be well..

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

You will not get liberation by following your own habit patterns ingrained over countless lifetimes.

 

That much is generally stressed throughout nearly all philosophies.

 

You will only realize liberation by following the teachings and guidance of those already liberated. Those that see objectively because they are not attached to a self.

 

There is no "only" way to reach realization. unless that is you mean to say that you inherently follow the teachings and guidance upon the realization of true liberation, but that negates there being a direct following.

 

We would thus "follow" in the examples of liberated wisefolk even without experiencing their example. the most thorough way to test your experiences is to not rely on the teachings of those who have done it already, but learn first hand what the inherent lessons are.

 

One find's clarity through the example of the clear, not the muddled.

 

One gains experience from the muddled, and can find clairity upon reflecting.

You seek to deprive us of this by promoting Buddha's tautological way?

 

Group effort with group intention towards the same goal brings about a powerful movement of energy that clarifies if the goal is made clear through learning from those that exist as mirrors of the highest truths.

 

"if the goal is made clear through learning" is a little muddled... but i think i understand what you mean, that if the individual takes the time to reflect and learn from their experiences that clarity can be had. and we always have the choice to either acknowledge or deny the proper examples.

I do not deny Buddha's example of a correct path. But i do deny Buddha's example being the sole example, for it deprives the infinite whole of it's inherent diversity.

 

 

 

 

The cosmos only works one way.

 

A VERY diverse way, mind you.

 

 

Everything originates dependently and is empty of inherent existence. There is no inherent Tao, unless one thinks of the Tao as the way things flow mutually dependent upon each other without inherent beingness as some Chan Masters translate the Tao to mean. Not some non-conceptual essence that is the background for all things. This type of mysteriousness is a reflection of ignorance and a lack of investigation.

 

 

I think of the tao as the way of reality. what do you think of it as? and more importantly, why?

 

Isnt the WAY of the cosmos the "background for all things"?

You are engaging in doublespeak.

 

 

 

More muddled poetic nonsense. Lets understand how things work and see the particulars in how they are caused and how they effect endlessly through an awareness made open and pristine, clear and free through the practices handed down by the realized, not the ignorant.

 

expand your mind beyond 'handed down practice' and delve into uncharted territory brother!

 

Through studying the mind with the guidance of mind masters, you can understanding the particulars of how the mind functions and how the body comes into process from subtler dimensions.

 

Through the studying of the mind without the guidance of mind masters, i have come to understand these particulars jsut fine. Lacking an example of correct composure and self discipline only slows my progress, it does not annihilate my efforts or render them null or void.

 

It affirms my experiences when compared to the masters who have already succeeded.

 

You see how your self experience is created through endless karmic links, just as the individual self that creates the individual process is created as well by a mixture of inner and outer add infinitum. Study some Abhidharma! You can unravel the knotted seed of unconscious existence through the mind pointing of the truly liberated, not by ones own bound ignorance.

 

I just LOVE how you assume im ignorant. isnt that kind of ignorant of you?

 

 

As the mind unravels itself by going from body (dense) practice to voice (energy) practice to mind (nature of emptiness) directly, through the guidance of "right view" the first of the 8 fold noble path, you can see how it's not only meditation that reveals the truth of things. From physical, to energetic to emptiness, one realizes fullness... only by the guidance of the liberated, not the bound.

 

Due to my lacking of guidance i skipped the voice step entirely, not even aware that it was a step. perhaps it is a step holding me back, but i have FAITH that what is meant to be is what will be, that my experiences were never mine to control and that upon aligning with the will of the way, my power of choice has become restricted to the will of the way, and i have faith that the way will work to my ultimate liberation and enlightenment so long as i am putting forth an effort to earn them.

 

my efforts are everpresent.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Then you should learn about it as you don't seem to know much about what he taught except through some passing passages taken out of context.

 

Test my words against "his" four noble truths. are we in disagreement?

 

 

Then find a truly liberated lineage and get transmission and humble yourself under the guidance of a true master/disciple relationship. Otherwise it's all just lip service.

 

It's the same in martial arts if you truly wish to learn, you need transmission from a truly skilled lineage, and that energy supports.

 

Everyone travels the same path uniquely... of course. But, it takes a master of emptiness to see fully how and where another is bound from within and guide someone in a way that is particular to the individuals sensibilities.

 

The way itself transmits my education and experience. i have the utmost faith that the absolute master of all masters is my master and teacher... as well is all of ours, if we are so willing to submit to the ultimate will of The Way.

 

 

 

 

 

I apologize for the double post, but it told me i breached the quotation limit... heh... probably by one, but i clipped two just to be sure.

 

 

I further apologize for contributing to this argument, it's not one apt to be resolved by being understanding if only one of us is. Buti am simply fascinated by Vaj's passionate expression of Buddha's path over all other paths, even going so far as to portray natural paths as lacking of validity.

 

My final thoughts are that liberation is not singular or universally definable... the emperor is as liberated by labor as the laborer is by luxuries.

 

acquiring an "ultimate liberation" begets an "ultimate sacrifice", which would then be the sacrifice of physical liberation for spiritual liberation.

 

The spirit without the body is as stagnant as the body without the spirit.

 

"liberation" is merely the cessation of experience in this case.

 

 

 

With that, i end my participation in this argument.

Vaj, i hope that one day yo can see the diversity of reality is not as strict and limiting as there being "only one correct path to liberation."

 

To you, i place a pine tree in your hands

Edited June 20, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[ralis]

That's where dependent origination comes in, the view. So all meditative experiences, including those where one thinks there is a primal source are transcended. This is exactly why view is important so that one doesn't get fooled by meditative experiences. Even though... they do happen and they are hardly hallucinations. You can claim as such, but you are wrong. Of course life can be considered a kind of agreed upon, co-originated hallucination.

 

 

 

Most people aren't ready for it. I find you dogmatic, limited, authoritarian, and ostentatious. The thing is, is that I know you are wrong about Buddhism, as your mind didn't open. Your mental dogmas are in the way. I do know that I am right about you though. 2 years of you following me around with your negative syrup.

 

 

 

No, clearly you don't. So many people do it but don't get it, your just one of the countless many.

 

 

 

It took a lot of questioning to come to Buddhism. More than you know.

 

 

 

That's your own fear speaking as I've never met a Lama that felt that way. It must be your karma...

 

You will not learn anything from me and I will only learn patience from you. I don't know why you keep harping on, chasing me around with nothing of real importance to say?

 

 

To further explain what I mean in regards to the Lamaism hierarchy, a few points are in order:

 

1. When the teacher (Lama) enters the room, everyone stands in humble prayer pose toward the Lama.

 

2. The Lama does his 3 prostrations toward the altar.

 

3. The Lama sits down and everyone does 3 prostrations toward the Lama.

 

4. It is taboo to point ones feet toward the Lama during a teaching. I guess one winds up in an eternal hell realm for doing so.

 

5. Everyone sits on the floor below the Lama sitting on his throne.

 

6. The Lama hierarchy is dominated by men.

 

7. Guilt, fear and superstition are the psychological tools used against the followers. Which include the threat of hell realms for certain periods of time. Maybe eons.

 

8. There is one offense against a Lama (can't remember what it is) where one can be sent to a hell realm forever.

 

 

You call this enlightened religion? This is not free will, but constitutes abuse and slavery!

 

This is nothing more than an authoritarian, theocratic, dark ages cult.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

, you ARE Life itself..

 

What is life itself, how does it do what it does? Where is it going? Where did the you that you are today really come from and how?

[Vajrahridaya]

infinite whole of it's inherent diversity.

 

There is no infinite whole. Most of your assumptions arise from this very deep and subtle assumption.

 

 

 

Isnt the WAY of the cosmos the "background for all things"?

 

Not as an ontological essence though. Just as a way things move as things are, not as a thing behind the things which the TTC boasts of. The Tao as the mother of all things, and the beginning before things are... etc. This treatment of a WAY does not hold up to Buddhas scrutiny.

 

 

expand your mind beyond 'handed down practice' and delve into uncharted territory brother!

 

There is nothing uncharted per say, only a new expression of the same.

 

 

 

It affirms my experiences when compared to the masters who have already succeeded.

 

Maybe, I don't know you that well and I don't know what you have studied and experienced.

 

 

 

Due to my lacking of guidance i skipped the voice step entirely, not even aware that it was a step.

 

Voice as in energy, the sound of your being.

 

perhaps it is a step holding me back, but i have FAITH that what is meant to be is what will be, that my experiences were never mine to control and that upon aligning with the will of the way, my power of choice has become restricted to the will of the way, and i have faith that the way will work to my ultimate liberation and enlightenment so long as i am putting forth an effort to earn them.

 

my efforts are everpresent.

 

There doesn't seem to be in Taoism a clear example of what the WAY is? Not as clearly as it appears through the Dharma that is. Everything seems to be metaphorical, allegorical? Of course if you are karmically driven towards this path and have not experienced deeply any other path, you will not know, as you will have no memory of anything else to compare it to.

 

I do... as I remember lifetimes. But... just do well and be well! It seems that you do. Your future will be good, even after death.

[Vajrahridaya]

To further explain what I mean in regards to the Lamaism hierarchy, a few points are in order:

 

1. When the teacher (Lama) enters the room, everyone stands in humble prayer pose toward the Lama.

 

 

To feel that humility is a lesson in and of itself.

 

2. The Lama does his 3 prostrations toward the altar.

 

To feel that surrender to the dharma is a lesson in and of itself.

 

3. The Lama sits down and everyone does 3 prostrations toward the Lama.

 

Open the meridians towards an ideation of your own highest nature manifest as a human being right before you as a mirror.

 

4. It is taboo to point ones feet toward the Lama during a teaching. I guess one winds up in an eternal hell realm for doing so.

 

No, it's just your energy flows out through your feet. It's an energy karma thing. If you are realized, you can also transcend this, even with a little realization. But, it's still good to honor.

 

5. Everyone sits on the floor below the Lama sitting on his throne.

 

The Lama if qualified is a intermediary on a level you have yet to comprehend. Unless your mind is open, you won't feel the incredible joy of it all.

 

6. The Lama hierarchy is dominated by men.

 

Mostly, because it was considered very hard for women to focus on spiritual needs due to physical stuff like giving birth and care taking for the children. Of course, in modern times, this is being over turned... which is very good.

7. Guilt, fear and superstition are the psychological tools used against the followers. Which include the threat of hell realms for certain periods of time. Maybe eons.

 

It's not a threat. You just get what you make, as you sew you reap. There is nothing you get without earning it in this life or the next. You are completely mis-understanding the teaching out of fear.

 

8. There is one offense against a Lama (can't remember what it is) where one can be sent to a hell realm forever.

 

Whoever taught you in this way seems to be quite stern and literal. This is very silly. But, you do have your own karmas. I've never met a Lama like this in my life.

 

You call this enlightened religion? This is not free will, but constitutes abuse and slavery!

 

Your take is very limited to a very limited level of experience and interpretation.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

There is no infinite whole. Most of your assumptions arise from this very deep and subtle assumption.

 

Rather a blatant and stark reality. i cannot NOT see infinity. and i am not speaking merely of quantums, but of ALL.

 

Reality is limited by our perceptions to quantities and sensations, but there is so much more to it than our bodies are equipped to communicate to our minds. learning to see psst our limitations and what the purpose of our limitations is part of the Buddha's scrutiny, but it is not to be put into faith, but into practice...

 

In my own scrutiny of life, i find it arbitrarily arrogant to suggest there is not an unlimited and infinite expression of the way, even if not immediately "accessible" to us directly, we are still a part of the collective.

 

 

 

Not as an ontological essence though. Just as a way things move as things are, not as a thing behind the things which the TTC boasts of. The Tao as the mother of all things, and the beginning before things are... etc. This treatment of a WAY does not hold up to Buddhas scrutiny.

 

The dis-personalization which Buddha promoted is essential for spiritual understanding, but will inevitably lead into unnecessary deprivation which you are promoting as liberation. liberation, sure, of the self. there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not productive or beneficial to the spirit with NO self at all.

 

there is a significant and troublesome difference between reducing the the ego self, and abandoning the entire self as a whole.

 

There is nothing uncharted per say, only a new expression of the same.

 

From the perspective of the self, all experiences are uncharted. it takes until sufficient experiences have been endured before this truth can be accurately realized.

 

It's one thing to SAY it, but another thing entirely to WALK it.

 

 

 

Maybe, I don't know you that well and I don't know what you have studied and experienced.

 

Gee, thanks. i think?

 

 

 

Voice as in energy, the sound of your being.

 

uh huh..............? the sound of my being is much like the light of my being, a clear reflection (or echo) of my surroundings.

 

 

There doesn't seem to be in Taoism a clear example of what the WAY is? Not as clearly as it appears through the Dharma that is. Everything seems to be metaphorical, allegorical? Of course if you are karmically driven towards this path and have not experienced deeply any other path, you will not know, as you will have no memory of anything else to compare it to.

 

I do... as I remember lifetimes. But... just do well and be well! It seems that you do. Your future will be good, even after death.

 

Smug as a bug in a rug aintcha? i cannot deny that which you claim here of yourself, however your judgment of me is no means your authority or understanding.

You merely adhere to an indoctrinated way of perception, and have chosen to follow it. I am certain you have tested the teachings first hand and are not speaking outside of direct experience, regardless from what incarnation, however it amazes me how full you are of your own words to speak down upon me/us. that is much more telling of your "place" in life than your Buddhist class and title.

 

 

I've lived so many lives it would be nothing short of redundant to reflect on any one of them, and merely distracting from the path i must follow.

 

There is no omniversal singular goal in hand, not all incarnations and representations of the way exist for the same purpose, there is no beginning and there will be no end. Only the continual and perpetual cycle of cycling cycles. As such is the way.

[Vajrahridaya]

Test my words against "his" four noble truths. are we in disagreement?

 

 

The 4 noble truths include the 8 fold path, which includes right view. This means understanding mutual co-origination and emptiness as well as anatman or no-inherent-self or essence to anything.

 

 

The way itself transmits my education and experience. i have the utmost faith that the absolute master of all masters is my master and teacher... as well is all of ours, if we are so willing to submit to the ultimate will of The Way.

 

See this constitutes a belief in a real and true self and will to the entire cosmos. This does not hold up to the Buddhas scrutiny.

 

 

 

 

 

I apologize for the double post, but it told me i breached the quotation limit... heh... probably by one, but i clipped two just to be sure.

 

No worries, it happens to me all the time.

 

 

acquiring an "ultimate liberation" begets an "ultimate sacrifice", which would then be the sacrifice of physical liberation for spiritual liberation.

 

In Buddhism the sacrifice just has to do with realizing no-self and offering all will and merits to the upliftment of others, either now or in the future by sewing seeds of liberation, even if it seems disagreeable in the now.

 

The spirit without the body is as stagnant as the body without the spirit.

 

Buddhism seems to be the only path that breaks down this, "spirit" into it's most subtle components and then finds that there is nothing absolute there to grasp at as well.

 

"liberation" is merely the cessation of experience in this case.

 

Experience goes on and on endlessly. In Buddha interpretation, Samsara is beginningless for an individual, but once Nirvana is realized, this is endless.

 

 

With that, i end my participation in this argument.

Vaj, i hope that one day yo can see the diversity of reality is not as strict and limiting as there being "only one correct path to liberation."

 

I used to believe as you. When I studied all the worlds religions vehemently without giving much time to the most volumes... Buddhism. I used to only read from here and there out of context from really bad translations.

 

Then I was schooled by an experienced scholar accredited from an Eastern school to a high degree. Then I met a great Rinpoche, and then I met many others after that both in dream and physically. Anyway... it's not that an individual cannot realize the same truth as the Buddha without being Buddhist. But... it's just that as a spiritual tradition, Buddhism offers the most clear explanations and methodology that appear on this planet with the most beings who have realized actual Buddhahood and not just intermediate bliss states of great power like in many other traditions.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

an unlimited and infinite expression of the way, even if not immediately "accessible" to us directly, we are still a part of the collective.

 

 

 

So unlimited one could hardly call it a collective.

 

 

The dis-personalization which Buddha promoted is essential for spiritual understanding, but will inevitably lead into unnecessary deprivation which you are promoting as liberation. liberation, sure, of the self. there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not productive or beneficial to the spirit with NO self at all.

 

This would be a mis-interpretation of his intentions. He meant that self is only always relative. There is not an absolute self. There is an absolute level of realizing the relative, as in always aware of the nature that change is which leads to freedom from passion while engaged fully for the benefit of all.

 

there is a significant and troublesome difference between reducing the the ego self, and abandoning the entire self as a whole.

 

Not abandoning, but understanding fully inter-connectivity on an infinite scale, both intellectually and experientially

 

 

 

 

 

 

uh huh..............? the sound of my being is much like the light of my being, a clear reflection (or echo) of my surroundings.

 

The mirror like nature of mind, still arises inter-dependently and not independently. When one looses oneself in the focus on this illumination aspect, and calls this the real self or abode of all things, then one is merely re-absorbed into this at the end of the karma for this cosmic eon and true liberation is not realized, only formless bliss then unconscious rebirth into the next universe as the cycle begins again. Buddhism is about knowing how to deal with the particulars in a way to keep consciously manifesting endlessly for the sake of others, but also out of just sheer longing for self-liberation. It's just that you get to a point where it stops being selfish and starts being for the sake of all beings and inter-connectivity is realized more and more deeply.

 

 

 

I've lived so many lives it would be nothing short of redundant to reflect on any one of them, and merely distracting from the path i must follow.

 

They reveal naturally as the unconscious is illumined.

 

There is no omniversal singular goal in hand, not all incarnations and representations of the way exist for the same purpose, there is no beginning and there will be no end. Only the continual and perpetual cycle of cycling cycles. As such is the way.

 

Ok, yes.. but how to always be conscious and make ones infinite unconscious completely conscious is what Buddhism is about... no more mystery, outside of course of constant spontaneity.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The 4 noble truths include the 8 fold path, which includes right view. This means understanding mutual co-origination and emptiness as well as anatman or no-inherent-self or essence to anything.

 

*sigh* Do we really have to point you toward Zen?

 

Understanding the nature of "no-inherent-self" leads to the understanding that self is omnipresent in and of all things.

 

Your absolutistic perspective is holding you back from interdependence. you are on the outside looking in, "trying to get out"!

 

See this constitutes a belief in a real and true self and will to the entire cosmos. This does not hold up to the Buddhas scrutiny.

 

I think you misunderstand... i do not hold will to the cosmos, my will is a gift from the cosmos, which the cosmos can control if i allow it, however i cannot progress unless i allow it.

 

The secret to complete ownership and possession of the self and the will is to give them up to their origination.

 

 

 

 

 

No worries, it happens to me all the time.

 

Glaring at me and then smug. you're really trying my patience. i apologized, what more do you want?

 

 

 

In Buddhism the sacrifice just has to do with realizing no-self and offering all will and merits to the upliftment of others, either now or in the future by sewing seeds of liberation, even if it seems disagreeable in the now.

 

But do you know and understand WHY we offer will and merit to others?!?

 

 

Buddhism seems to be the only path that breaks down this, "spirit" into it's most subtle components and then finds that there is nothing absolute there to grasp at as well.

 

There is no purpose in breaking down all that has been constructed except to see what makes it work. Buddha's final conclusion is that "nothing" makes it work.

Like you said, no absolutes.

 

Giving up everything and gaining nothing, but passing it off as "liberation".

 

It is a challenge not all are even willing to embark upon, returning to the nothingness, but an inevitable process in the cycle of the way.

 

 

We all do it, just not always the way Buddha said to.

 

 

Experience goes on and on endlessly. In Buddha interpretation, Samsara is beginningless for an individual, but once Nirvana is realized, this is endless.

 

Reiteration?

im pretty sure that's all i said, simply without name dropping.

 

I used to believe as you. When I studied all the worlds religions vehemently without giving much time to the most volumes... Buddhism. I used to only read from here and there out of context from really bad translations.

 

Then I was schooled by an experienced scholar accredited from an Eastern school to a high degree. Then I met a great Rinpoche, and then I met many others after that both in dream and physically. Anyway... it's not that an individual cannot realize the same truth as the Buddha without being Buddhist. But... it's just that as a spiritual tradition, Buddhism offers the most clear explanations and methodology that appear on this planet with the most beings who have realized actual Buddhahood and not just intermediate bliss states of great power like in many other traditions.

 

I am certain buddhism is very helpful to a vast majority of people seeking liberation, but i must digress it is not the only way nor is it truly superior in any manner outside of personal uniqueness and opinion.

 

Regardless of what path works for you, there is no one true path except YOUR OWN one true path which is as unique to you as your DNA.

[Vajrahridaya]

*sigh* Do we really have to point you toward Zen?

 

Understanding the nature of "no-inherent-self" leads to the understanding that self is omnipresent in and of all things.

 

No, there is just connection, no self. Yes, your awareness goes omnipresent, but it is not attached to as a self. At this stage one must empty even emptiness. There is deeper than this idea I have quoted of yours above. Your self is relative to everything yes, but if you really recognize what the Buddha was saying about inter-dependence, and emptiness, then you go deeper than this as well. There also is no inherent universe to be relative to. Reading some Nagarjuna is helpful in understanding what the Buddha taught on emptiness and inter-dependency.

 

 

 

I think you misunderstand... i do not hold will to the cosmos, my will is a gift from the cosmos, which the cosmos can control if i allow it, however i cannot progress unless i allow it.

 

See in Buddhism we don't surrender to the universe, we surrender to the Dharma, the teaching of liberation from the universe, while realizing that the universe is now Nirvana for the realized. We don't take refuge in the cosmos, we take refuge in the being liberated from it, even though the cosmos produced this possibility as well.

 

The secret to complete ownership and possession of the self and the will is to give them up to their origination.

 

As a servant to help free others endlessly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Glaring at me and then smug. you're really trying my patience. i apologized, what more do you want?

 

Whao... that was a total projection. That was not my intention. I was glaring at the fact that this happens to me as well, then I'm just letting it go in closed eye half smile meditation. That was my intention...

 

 

 

 

 

But do you know and understand WHY we offer will and merit to others?!?

 

Because we are because of them on the relative level.

 

 

 

 

There is no purpose in breaking down all that has been constructed except to see what makes it work. Buddha's final conclusion is that "nothing" makes it work.

Like you said, no absolutes.

 

emptiness does not mean nothing. It means constant malleability. Emptiness means nothing is static, unless one realizes that nothing is static all the time, then that realization is permanent. What makes everything work is the fact of suffering, movement out of the longing for completion, but since suffering beings are endless, so is the service of those that freed themselves from suffering. So also what makes it all work is that there is in fact a way to end suffering and the examples of this way are endless, but examples of the pitfalls both high and low are endless as well. Those that freed themselves from suffering completely and totally move out of the motivation of compassion for the endless that suffer, even though they are also free from this as well as there are really no beings at all. Because something that arises due to something else has no self to arise from other than this relativity, it is as if it didn't arise at all from an absolute perspective.

[Vajrahridaya]

Giving up everything and gaining nothing, but passing it off as "liberation".

 

There is really nothing to gain, since everything is already unbound by the fact that it is empty of inherent existence. So not even now is graspable as ultimate reality. There is just the flow of mutually dependent ideations fed upon by endless belief in it as so, this will be endless as it is beginningless. Be liberated from it and through it or not.

 

It is a challenge not all are even willing to embark upon, returning to the nothingness, but an inevitable process in the cycle of the way.

 

Emptiness is not nothingness. There is no nothingness, but merely as an idea of contrast that if focused upon brings about that state of meditation of infinite nothingness, but that to has no inherent existence. Nothingness is also empty of inherent being.

 

 

We all do it, just not always the way Buddha said to.

 

No, Buddhadharma shows a much more complex cosmos and a much more layered view of what can happen for endless individuals than what you would be used to without studying what the Buddha actually taught through and through.

 

 

 

I am certain buddhism is very helpful to a vast majority of people seeking liberation, but i must digress it is not the only way nor is it truly superior in any manner outside of personal uniqueness and opinion.

 

On this Earth.. I disagree. But everyone has their own path to a truly liberating path, and what is helpful is what is needed for an individual on the path to a truly liberating path. Be it Taoism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Paganism... etc.

 

Regardless of what path works for you, there is no one true path except YOUR OWN one true path which is as unique to you as your DNA.

 

Even every Buddhist who attains Buddhahood, even if it were to be the Jalus or Rainbow Body (link to explanation) each one who realizes this type of Buddhahood integrates this very same realization in a unique way with their own unique set of karmic baggage to be liberated as such.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Whao... that was a total projection. That was not my intention. I was glaring at the fact that this happens to me as well, then I'm just letting it go in closed eye half smile meditation. That was my intention...

 

I think this is the only one that needs to be quoted.

 

 

Misinterpreted the meanings of those emoticons, they appeared more condescending than anything els ein the context of your words. Took 'em the wrong way, there was no "excuuuuuuuse me" moment like i thought

 

 

 

Well overall i have to say, buddhism is like the yin to the taoism yang they are both so very much alike and for much the same purpose, but take two slightly conflicting routes.

 

One of subservience to the teachings and one of subservience to diversified learning.

 

Buddhism promotes a "way" while taoism promotes "the way" is all there is, and the choice of weather or not to follow it's example or flee from it.

 

 

We are both rehashing each other and saying the same things, from opposite perspectives.

 

 

While the coin is in the air, you see heads and i see tails, even though we see the same coin, we're arguing over it needlessly!

 

 

I think this is much like Buddha's comparison of blind men and an elephant...

 

Truly, i think i should have quit 4 posts ago but i do so love a good debate, especially when my partner isnt being rude, callouse, and insulting! Im not used to responsible and rational debated It's quite refreshing, thank you!

 

NOW...

 

 

Can you tell me what exactly we've been arguing about?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

Can you tell me what exactly we've been arguing about?

 

Any symbol be it mundane or spiritual interpreted through intuitive experience of co-dependent origination/emptiness is liberated upon cognition anyway.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Any symbol be it mundane or spiritual interpreted through intuitive experience of co-dependent origination/emptiness is liberated upon cognition anyway.

 

See, that's why i like you. You've got that eloquence going on that i might never accomplish in this lifetime assuming it's not my next-to last. if it is, then i've got a lot left to do lol eh plenty of time. just no definitive path.

 

It'll be a real challenge, but not impossible i think.

 

 

 

BESIDES: I dont think "The Dharma Bums" is nearly as catchy anyhow!

Edited June 20, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Pardon me for butting in, but a glaring flaw in your logic prompted my response:

 

We have the free will to make choices, not decide the outcomes of our choices, by engaging in and acting on free will, we physically enter into contract that we agree to sustain all outcomes of the choices of our free will, regardless of weather or not we are aware that this physical contract is in effect or the rules of engagement.

We have complete rights to our free will so long as we retain our sovereignty. we are also allowed to give up or abstain from personal sovereignty, thereby giving up our free will to the public at large, or whom so ever might be able to buy/afford/steal y/our time.

 

 

Your not butting in, you can comment on what you like, although I was talking with Marblehead it was in general view of free will for anyone to comment upon, so I don't mind at all.

 

My point was not that there are not obvious consequences, as in if I break a law for example. My point in that post or another, was I disagree that anyone has the fundamental right to make such laws that can govern my life. The 'rules of engagement' are not rules I had a choice in creating. Now I will warrant that some laws are in fact for my benefit, but many others are certainly not. To make a law you have to first come up with concepts of right and wrong, yet I do not believe in absolute right or wrong, so therefore, any punishment I may receive for any possible wrong doing would, in my view, be unjust, no matter I had previous knowledge of the consequences, I do not agree that, in view of the law, there should be any consequences(although I do know there might be).

 

If it was a sport, and I choose to play the sport, then yes, I accept the rules. But, as far as my memory goes, I did not choose to be born in my country of birth, so therefore I did not accept its rules. So in my view, this is an obstruction to me being able to freely exercise my will, as I don't want to be punished so I will then restrict my own actions. I disagree with my self imposed restriction, although I did have the 'free' will to make that choice. It's still, in my view, not freedom.

 

 

You have a CHOICE. accept punishment, or fight it. if you are unwilling to fight it, you forsake your sovereignty, and thus your free will to determine an alternate outcome; you have a choice between extremes, give up your lifestyle for your freedom, or accept punishment for your lifestyle.

 

 

Who has the right the set up the game rules before I started to play? You present two choices as if these choices, in the first place, are right and proper. Yet I disagree that they are. My sovereignty should not be conditional on what another says is right/wrong and what and how I should be punished for those actions. The tail is wagging the dog.

 

 

 

The eternal struggle between selfish and selfless effort for either the self or for the community.... it's eternal indeed.

 

Seek balance to find sovereignty if you so choose to retain your ever-present right to own and operate the gift of free will.

 

If you engage in the correct physical contracts (read as: rituals) you can learn the true source of authority and decide weather or not you wish to take the responsibility of owning and operating the freedom of choice, or if your choices are preferably the responsibilities of others, and thus the choices thereof.

 

It is still inevitably your choice. to have or not to have... the gift of free will.

 

 

Free will is a conditioned response, to a greater or lesser extent, by the good boy/bad boy, approval/disapproval pat on the head or smack on the bum variety we received in childhood.

 

What people perceive to be their own decisions based on free will, is many times, simply there past conditioning in operation.

 

 

 

I apologize for intruding in your argument.

 

 

No need to apologize at all S.S.S, we are all here trying to communicate our ideas and opinions to each other.