Free Will

[Marblehead]

Yea!!!

 

We have a free willy!!!!!

 

Peace & Love!

[宁]

Marbles,

 

what would be the characteristics of a will that is free?

let's start from there, and work our way to what daoism believes as will, and as freedom... if you're still interested in daoist view.

 

L1

[三江源]

Marbles,

 

what would be the characteristics of a will that is free?

let's start from there, and work our way to what daoism believes as will, and as freedom... if you're still interested in daoist view.

 

L1

 

Good idea.

 

Each layer peeled back reveals more and more of our toiling within the confines of our unconscious conditioning. Is there a will at all when we are free? Or just a dwelling in truth. And a passion for it.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I believe a truly freed will power is one which acknowledges the existence of such will power inherent in all individuals and knows to respect that which the individual [power of will] expects in return.

 

 

That is the responsibility of free will, without which, your will is neither free nor responsible.

 

As, or every trespass against another will is a price that must be payed. Karma is unrelenting; if not this life, then your next will repay your debt of consent.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[Lucky7Strikes]

I believe a truly freed will power is one which acknowledges the existence of such will power inherent in all individuals and knows to respect that which the individual [power of will] expects in return.

 

 

That is the responsibility of free will, without which, your will is neither free nor responsible.

 

As, or every trespass against another will is a price that must be payed. Karma is unrelenting; if not this life, then your next will repay your debt of consent.

Responsibility is attachment. It is ego's activity. It is another shackle.

 

Ultimately, no self-aware will is free. And really, there is no such thing in the first place. Everyone is serving their part within the interdependent matrix.

 

Let be, everything already is, and self-liberating. .

Edited June 21, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

[Marblehead]

Okay, I'm back before evening. All done with work for the day.

 

A will that is free from a Taoist perspective. This was the question.

 

Okay, I have given an example.

 

Let's see if we can present some characteristics of one who has free will.

 

How about this?

 

The one who is blessed with free will is subtle and profound, mysterious and penetratingly wise. Their depth cannot be known.

 

However, some of their characterists are:

 

Hesitant are they!, like someone crossing a river in winter.

 

Undecided are they!, as though in fear of their neighbors on all four sides.

 

Solemn and polite are they!, like a guest.

 

Scattered and dispersed are they!, like ice as it melts

 

Genuine and unformed are they!, like uncarved wood.

 

Merged and undifferentiated are they!, like muddy water.

 

Broad and expansive are they!, like a valley.

 

Some of you might recognize that as being from Chapter 15 of the Tao Te Ching. (Yes, I modified it somewhat.)

 

I think the most important concept here is that they are flexible and can change their direction, their opinion, whatever, in a heartbeat. To be free from all dogma and absolutely sure of nothing. With this frame of mind one can go in any direction conditions require. A will that has lost all its chains that bind.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Responsibility is attachment. It is ego's activity. It is another shackle.

 

Ultimately, no self-aware will is free. And really, there is no such thing in the first place. Everyone is serving their part within the interdependent matrix.

 

Let be, everything already is, and self-liberating. .

 

Yes, this idea of an ultimate self that is inherently free to have a will is a subtle trap most cling to, even in spiritual development. There is inherent freedom, but not as a single being, but rather as a reflection of the fact of the parts of the cosmos arising inter-dependently and the luminously empty nature of things. We as a product of this endlessness which through influence from enlightened beings attains the conditions of seeing this directly, has liberated awareness even while will as a conditioned phenomena, does it's thing, as a part and parcel of the spinning all aware of inter-connectivity and emptiness, in recognition of, rather than denial of or as a static identity saying, "I have free will". People don't realize how deeply conditioned the choices they make are. How free is a will that is conditioned by so many layers of factors? Just let it be conditioned by factors of liberation, rather than factors of bondage. Even this "letting" is conditioned by influences.

 

Ah... makes sense to me... maybe I'm just talking to myself here. :lol: Two mirrors looking at each other. Hi!

[Vajrahridaya]

Good idea.

 

Each layer peeled back reveals more and more of our toiling within the confines of our unconscious conditioning. Is there a will at all when we are free? Or just a dwelling in truth. And a passion for it.

 

Ah... now you are getting somewhere! Yeah!!

 

More like a compassion and empathy with it... not as an it of course, this is just the limitations of language speaking.

[ralis]

"I have free will". People don't realize how deeply conditioned the choices they make are. How free is a will that is conditioned by so many layers of factors? Just let it be conditioned by factors of liberation, rather than factors of bondage. Even this "letting" is conditioned by influences.

 

Ah... makes sense to me... maybe I'm just talking to myself here. :lol: Two mirrors looking at each other. Hi!

 

Yes! You are talking to yourself here! Your sweeping generalizations only apply to you and not to others. If you understand what a sweeping generalization is.

 

Your statement about being "conditioned by factors of liberation" contradicts every premise you have made here.

 

You have the idea that whatever you say applies to all. I disagree on this point.

 

 

ralis

Edited June 22, 2010 by ralis

[Marblehead]

... maybe I'm just talking to myself here. :lol: Two mirrors looking at each other. Hi!

 

I'm listening to you VJ, It's just that you most often leave me speechless. You go Dude! Exercise your free will, conditioned or not.

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yes, this idea of an ultimate self that is inherently free to have a will is a subtle trap most cling to, even in spiritual development. There is inherent freedom, but not as a single being, but rather as a reflection of the fact of the parts of the cosmos arising inter-dependently and the luminously empty nature of things. We as a product of this endlessness which through influence from enlightened beings attains the conditions of seeing this directly, has liberated awareness even while will as a conditioned phenomena, does it's thing, as a part and parcel of the spinning all aware of inter-connectivity and emptiness, in recognition of, rather than denial of or as a static identity saying, "I have free will". People don't realize how deeply conditioned the choices they make are. How free is a will that is conditioned by so many layers of factors? Just let it be conditioned by factors of liberation, rather than factors of bondage. Even this "letting" is conditioned by influences.

 

Ah... makes sense to me... maybe I'm just talking to myself here. :lol: Two mirrors looking at each other. Hi!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Your statement about being "conditioned by factors of liberation" contradicts every premise you have made here.

 

 

 

 

ralis

 

No, it does not, as in Buddhahood, liberation arises upon the condition of realizing the nature of things. So there is no contradiction as liberation originates dependent upon prajna, or wisdom. Again, inter-dependent origination at work here.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm listening to you VJ, It's just that you most often leave me speechless. You go Dude! Exercise your free will, conditioned or not.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Peace & Love to you as well Marblehead! Stay spherical brother!! Keep marblin'!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Responsibility is attachment. It is ego's activity. It is another shackle.

 

Ultimately, no self-aware will is free. And really, there is no such thing in the first place. Everyone is serving their part within the interdependent matrix.

 

Let be, everything already is, and self-liberating. .

 

 

 

The mentality that "all [are] shakles/must be removed" is a shackle in and of itself.

 

The shakle that binds us to our efforts!

 

Now responsibility is no shackle, but rather... a power.

 

It's the ABILITY to RESPOND.

 

Our free will follows the ability to respond, and if we give up that ability, we give up our free will.

 

 

There is no free will exclusive of responsibility, only irresponsible "children" of all ages who are a burden to the mature ones who must care for them.

The responsibility of will merely shifts from the self of body to the self of community.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[Lucky7Strikes]

The mentality that "all [are] shakles/must be removed" is a shackle in and of itself.

 

The shakle that binds us to our efforts!

 

Now responsibility is no shackle, but rather... a power.

 

It's the ABILITY to RESPOND.

 

Our free will follows the ability to respond, and if we give up that ability, we give up our free will.

 

 

There is no free will exclusive of responsibility, only irresponsible "children" of all ages who are a burden to the mature ones who must care for them.

The responsibility of will merely shifts from the self of body to the self of community.

Yes, grasping onto the mentality to "Let go" is yet another cage.

 

Responsibility and irresponsibility both are shackles.

 

There is no free will to give up. Ultimately there has never been such a thing in the first place.

 

This is very difficult to accept, because of one's attachment's to self.

 

The selfless compassion is an effortless compassion. It is not where you go "oh I am responsible for saving humanity." It becomes your nature. One even forgets about one's enlightenment and goes barefoot into the market place with a hearty laughter!!

 

Anyways, all this is left better unsaid. All things said should be to negate the untruth of what has been said. It is important to abide in the middle,

 

and the middle is undefined and unspeakable. It really hit home for me when a fellow here said that non-duality is indeed indescribable.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

'Freewill' is the condition that there is no 'conditions' confining our understandings and our awareness, other than the conditions we impose upon ourselves.. even conditioning and programming, are negotiable.. your 'place in the process', is whatever you have the understanding and awareness to choose.. this is not a physical issue, we are so much more than that.. Freewill is about 'You', BOTH 'local' and 'non-local'..

 

Be well..

[Lucky7Strikes]

Greetings..

 

'Freewill' is the condition that there is no 'conditions' confining our understandings and our awareness, other than the conditions we impose upon ourselves.. even conditioning and programming, are negotiable.. your 'place in the process', is whatever you have the understanding and awareness to choose.. this is not a physical issue, we are so much more than that.. Freewill is about 'You', BOTH 'local' and 'non-local'..

 

Be well..

This is the chicken or the egg debate.

 

They are inter dependent. So no chicken or the egg is established separately or inherently.

 

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

This is the chicken or the egg debate.

No, it's not.. the physical manifestation is a 'temporary' reality that the 'Eternal' you experiences as an Independently Functioning Version of your Wholeness (the 'local' you).. Yes, the eternal You and the temporary 'local' You are interdependent, they are One AND Many of the Same..

 

The 'physical manifestation' is limited by the demands of maintaining and sustaining the physical vehicle, and navigating the social and cultural environment.. the mind is the interface between the 'local'/temporary You and the 'non-local' eternal You.. the 'local' mind is free to focus its awareness locally or non-locally, and a balance of both has been appropriate for my understandings..

 

Be well..

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Think of free will as an issued contract, and all actions as a series of unimposed contracts with the only exception of contracts which you willingly impose upon yourself.

 

The actions of others against your will without prior conscious and consenting contract to grant them authority over such is the ONLY breach.

 

We are under contract that we are allowed to think whatever we are willing to think, without any un-negotiable imposed restrictions, and all restrictions are negotiable at your willing consent, but the cause and effect of these negotiations are not in your power of will, only your participation or lack thereof.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Think of free will as an issued contract,

No thanks.. 'freewill' says it all.. why add layers of analogy and visualization? just get on with it, Live it with unconditional sincerity and gusto..

 

Be well..

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Greetings..

 

 

No thanks.. 'freewill' says it all.. why add layers of analogy and visualization? just get on with it, Live it with unconditional sincerity and gusto..

 

Be well..

 

that wasnt for your aide, i am convinced you understand as well as if not better than I

 

 

But some people still cant help but think in terms of hierarchy.

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

No thanks.. 'freewill' says it all.. why add layers of analogy and visualization? just get on with it, Live it with unconditional sincerity and gusto..

 

Be well..

 

Conditioned by your unconscious tendencies of non-conceptual interpretation...

[Lucky7Strikes]

Greetings..

 

 

No, it's not.. the physical manifestation is a 'temporary' reality that the 'Eternal' you experiences as an Independently Functioning Version of your Wholeness (the 'local' you).. Yes, the eternal You and the temporary 'local' You are interdependent, they are One AND Many of the Same..

 

The 'physical manifestation' is limited by the demands of maintaining and sustaining the physical vehicle, and navigating the social and cultural environment.. the mind is the interface between the 'local'/temporary You and the 'non-local' eternal You.. the 'local' mind is free to focus its awareness locally or non-locally, and a balance of both has been appropriate for my understandings..

 

Be well..

Inter-dependent doesn't mean One. Here is your misunderstanding.

 

Can you expand on the meaning of "eternal" you?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Greetings..

 

 

No thanks.. 'freewill' says it all.. why add layers of analogy and visualization? just get on with it, Live it with unconditional sincerity and gusto..

 

Be well..

 

Fear, I sense. Of the Truth!