Free Will

[Spectrum]

The relationship of the eight pointed star to pi. It was said to me, the groove of anything is where true Fu starts. To find the ninth angle, the center of Time.

 

It was said to me, sown in me, shown to me. I can't help that my life was changed because of those choices and people living on the edge of history... It's real... The Center of Time

 

Now and Then When

Edited June 15, 2010 by Spectrum

[Iyoiyo]

A mind can never fully conceive itself. The ebb and flow of your subconscious is beyond common fathom. Whether reality is an illogical bunch of choices, and cause and effect, it will never by a standard be relevant to you.

 

Logically speaking, cause and effect is the only logical way, but it will never matter. The average mind has difficulty watching their conscious mind, let alone the in fathomable complexity of the ten-thousand half-thoughts processing through the mind-below-the-mind

 

This is an awesome response.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Excellent response, questions and considerations.

 

First, I'm not married so I did not take offense. Otherwise, in the scenario you presented I would probably take one of my swords to the both of you. Cause and effect. Hehehe.

 

 

Well, I'm very pleased you would be fully exercising your free will . Although you would be breaking the law. What kind of sword is it? I'm hoping I'm not gonna be impaled my a cheap Samurai sword imitation. I'm hoping for an American civil war antique sword. If not, I would prefer you do not exercise your free will.

 

 

 

 

I agree that, generally speaking, the higher one is on the social ladder (within their own society) the more free will they will have, the more choices they will have. But even those lower on the ladder have the free will to revolt against the authorities if their free will (freedom) is being limited far too much.

 

 

This is interesting, and actually before I fell asleep I was rather considering your mention of primates and their form of order.... ie. wrong doing = punishment.

 

Firsty, I should state that it is my belief of Daoism that the practice of Daoism, with sit down meditation and breath control and other, does, in fact strip away past conditioning, leaving a person bare but in touch with the Dao. I believe the Dao to be basically expansive and nurturing, so I don't believe people will go around punching people on the nose at every occasion. Although I will say, there seems to me, to be a rather dangerous cross over period of time.

 

In any case, your point about people higher up the social ladder with more free will is exactly connected to an example I will give in a moment. But I will say this, you say people are free to revolt, but are they? How free are they to actually revolt? For example, lets say I was American and I decide that the American government is quite crap actually and a lot of people agree with me. I could, I suppose, pursue democratic means, yet, as we all know in western countries, in a democracy there are, pretty much just two parties(sometimes three)with a high chance of office, due to the fact that to run a campaign you need serious money, who gives them the money? Multi national companies and so on. Will they give me the money? Doubtful when I tell them I don't agree with war particularly, or some of their other dubious ways of making money.

 

Will I be able to simply walk up to the white house and demand the keys? Of course not. The power structure is in place. So, I therefore choose your option, revolution . I call myself a freedom fighter, they call me a terrorist, and they have the power and the influence to make sure I'm portrayed in the media as a terrorist. Che Guevara is considered a hero in China, but perhaps the majority in America consider him otherwise. Who is right? I don't know. Should I win my revolution I can simply make sure that people consider me a hero, otherwise if I lose, I'm sure to be a social pariah. But...I certainly did exercise my free will. If I win, no doubt my free will will have brushed up against many others free will, to the point of me having to kill them. Am I right or wrong? I can certainly re-write the history books and make it look as though I am right, as all good revolutionaries/victors do.

 

Bearing in mind I don't consider killing an option(a luxury I have due to never having been conscripted)I would therefore say I have no free will in this situation, unless I believe so called democracy to be effective, which I don't by the way. A four year decision is no decision at all, it's not like they then ask the people about even a minority of the decisions they make in the four year term of office. Democracy, nice word, but one of the biggest cons ever perpetuated on the human race.

 

 

 

Anyway, onto a more light hearted scenario:

 

 

A group of monkeys live up a mountain together. Everythings going swimmingly well, bananas get eaten, monkeys swing off trees and the females get impregnated.

 

Order is in place due to the alpha male. Yet, sadly for the other male monkeys, they just can't get any action. Why? Because the alpha male considers himself to have boning rights. The females, in general, are inclined to agree with him.

 

Let's say the alpha male has really gotten tired of having to fight off the other males, and certainly, he's unlikely to say "oh, ok, do what you want", due to the fact he had to fight his way to the top. There had to be some benefit, and he'll be damned if he's gonna give that up.

 

So, lets say these monkeys actually have the power of speech, and the alpha male thinks 'how can I make my life much easier? I know, I'll create shame and social acceptance, I'll re-educate them'. So he gathers all the monkeys and then says "thou shalt not bone females, or your a bad monkey! And females, thou shalt not allow other male monkeys bonage, or that makes you a bit dirty'.

 

After some time each monkey is conditioned within the group that this is social acceptance and the line must be toed. Every now and then the males and females thoughts wander, but, luckily for the alpha male, they have been conditioned with shame and the fear of social ostracization.

 

One day, a rather cheeky monkey, that often likes to throw bananas at others heads for fun, spies a rather attractive female monkey that he's noticed frequently gives him a rather lingering monkey look. Now, he knows that he is not supposed to do anything, but then he comes up with the concept of free will, and decides this just isn't fair at all.

 

Luckily he has noticed when the alpha male goes for a poo behind the bushes there is just enough time to get in there, get the job done, and get the **** out. So, he carefully steals himself to the task at hand, and waits patiently. As the alpha male goes behind the bushes our cheeky monkey slides up beside the female monkey and whispers some pertinent sweet nothings in her ear and proceeds.

 

Unfortunately, unbeknownst to even the alpha male, he didn't in fact need a poo, but in fact only passed wind. And upon emerging from the bushes scratching his head sees one cheeky monkey with his pants down, so to speak, and a female with a rather happy expression on her face.

 

Well, all hell breaks lose, and after monkeys have been slapped about a bit by the alpha male, both are banished from monkey society. All the female monkeys tut and and say what a tart she was, and all the males say what a bad monkey guy he was(whilst secretly being jealous).

 

 

This above scenario is pretty much society as we have it, but obviously in a very simplistic form. My point being that all conditioning we receive, for the most part perhaps, benefits someone else and not ourselves.

 

The exercising of free will will often come up against societies mores, mores that were created to create 'order', yet intrinsically are not there for the benefit of the majority of individuals, but for the chosen few.

 

I guess my argument has become free will Vs. Societies mores, and the value of individual choice over societies choice of your, supposed, place.

 

I feel sure that were a monkey a Daoist he/she would certainly do as he pleased, not necessarily to the detriment of others, but, in fact, it would be somewhat impossible to avoid at some point. A Daoist, IMV, although one with the Dao, would always follow his/her heart, not the expectation of society that had been forced upon him without his ability to consciously choose otherwise.

 

Perhaps this is why in history Daoists ended up living alone up a mountain. I'm guessing monkeys and humans are somewhat similar, which is rather telling of how little we have progressed.

 

 

And I still hold to the understanding that we are all responsible for our actions and if we violate the laws of our society we are to be held responsible by our society.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I get you, I'm more interested in pursuing societies mores, which make up our conditioned selves creating a limitation of free will. Although it was I that used murder as a rather extreme example in the first place.

 

My question is who says society has a right to quantify right or wrong, I for one, do not agree that it does, bearing in mind it's based on an seeming extension of 'Gorillas in the mist'.

 

Just to further make my point(and yes I do realize I'm going on and on)I consider taxation to be no better than common theft. Yet society has decided it's right, good and proper. If you don't pay your taxes your a cad and a leech and everyone will throw rotting eggs at you, or at least they will want to. In truth they are secretly pissed at you getting away with it and them not, such is the society we have created.

 

Taxation, country wide, was first created in order to finance the war against the American revolt of the British. Thanks for that We can only blame ourselves. Yet, if you take 20 dollars off me and then give me a bag of sweets/candy, to the value of about a dollar and say 'see what nice things I did for you' I will say I could have done it myself and what happened to the other 19 dollars?

 

To take money in any form without a persons permission is theft. No two ways about it. It doesn't matter if it is government sanctioned. And these are the same people I'm supposed to listen to as to right and wrong.

 

It is my free will not to pay taxes. Because I don't agree with theft. Am I right or wrong? Having said that I do pay taxes but it's certainly not my choice.

 

You might ask me 'well, how is society as we know it supposed to function without us paying taxes', and I would say 'why are you making a problem you created my problem?'. I am not concerned with society, I care only about the individual and his/her ability to realize, and go beyond the conditioning that restricts his/her free will.

 

Oh well, I've probably taken up too much space on this page so apologies to all.....

[island]

[Marblehead]

 

Maybe it's because I don't always think logically, and enjoy (not) doing so I am able to accept paradoxes, and that all possibilities happen simultaneously.

 

 

Hi Sloppy,

 

Interesting post. I don't agree with it but it was still interesting.

 

The future hasn't happened yet so nothing is yet written in stone.

 

Yes, the past is gone - written in stone.

 

The now is constantly happening - every new minute is a new now. This is where our free will applies.

 

Our 'now' free will choices need not be logical in any sense of the word/concept. Our choices may be totally illogical. I have made some of those during my lifetime.

 

There was no logical reason for me to not continue to be a Christian considering I was born into a Christian family. I chose a different path. I utilized my free will.

 

No other person in my family served time in the military. There was no logical reason for me to join the Army. But yet I became a career soldier. A totally illogical choice and exercising of my free will.

 

Back to the future. I say once again, the future has not yet happened. The possibilities for our next 'now' are unlimited. We amy die in an auto accident. This would terminate our free will absolutely.

 

But until that day we have the choice to punch someone aside the head or to give them a hug. Our choice - allowed by free will.

 

One of the most beautiful aspects of life is its unpredictablilty. We never know what is going to happen next. We must never dilute this aspect of life.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

This is such a cool thread!

 

How about what I just figured up. As follows. Free will has nothing to do with any of these consciousness systems (because consciousness may very well be its own undoing;-))

 

Hi Kate,

 

I think that the concept of free will have everything to do with our understanding of our consciousness state.

 

If we do not hold to the concept of an "I" then we would never be able to accept the concept of free will because, afterall, "I" doesn't exist so how could "I" have free will?

 

It is only through the "I" that free will can be expressed.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I wonder what if any relationship exists between 'free will' and 'destiny' ...

 

Or rephrased 'the choice to choose or the will to do it' (thanks Alex) and Quantum Measurement Paradoxes.

 

Can we measure our position and at the same time chart our motion through life?

 

What is Time

 

Yes. I would say that "destiny" and "free will" are opposites when viewed from a dualistic viewpoint.

 

(Personally, I do leave a little room for the play of desitny because I do not believe that human life is totally free will.)

 

Yes, I do believe we can chat our life over time and we can, within limits, predict our future on that chart, but not with 100% accuracy because of unknown variables.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sloppy Zhang]

The now is constantly happening - every new minute is a new now. This is where our free will applies.

 

I agree, and the thing is that, if you find this to be true, what our perspective considers to be the future is contained within that NOW moment.

 

It's the problem with language. By its very definition "future" implies some thing in a sequential order that happens after the present moment, and has not been experienced. But pulling away from language, the concept, "future" does not actually exist- we created the concept to explain how we view the world, which is limited.

 

And to say "the future has already happened" is also incorrect because that talks about the past, but the past, present, and future all exist NOW. I, you, a guest reading this post, we are all our past, present, and future selves right now at this moment- though we may not be able to perceive it.

 

This concept allows for spontaneity.

 

It allows for unpredictability.

 

The problem is that those terms as well are, to a certain extent, created because of our limited perception.

 

 

So, it is a paradox. There is a bit of a language problem.

 

How can you make a new choice if you are your future self that has made a choice? Can you make a different choice, but you would be that person anyway. But you still can.

 

I think you still can.

 

I see absolutely no limits to this. I totally agree with everything that you and TzuJanLi have said about pretty much everything. And I don't think any of it is affected in any way, shape, or form by it. Our perceptions might be affected. Our language barriers may have problems conveying the true meaning. But I don't think it halts anything at all.

[Ya Mu]

Destiny and Free Will, IS this a Paradox?

I have a different take on all this.

 

My answer is no. And this is because true Destiny is not something that just happens but something that one chooses beforehand. If you do not believe in reincarnation then you may wish to stop reading here, you probably will not enjoy this.

 

Destiny is the path that one chooses before coming to the Earth. This path is chosen for optimal learning, advancement, and choice of helping others. But because of what I call the "great amnesia", there is significant challenge in one finding and fulfilling their Destiny. And because free will does exist, this finding and fulfilling becomes most difficult.

 

A person is going to be driven to do certain things. Why did you choose to do what you did a year ago? Or 20 years ago? This is the inner self making the attempt to put one on track. But confusion can reign. What to do?

 

I have found and truly believe that the surest way to find one's Destiny is to practice methods that raise the energy body vibration. This significantly helps one to become one with their Higher Level Self, their true self. Ah, this true self knows all about why we came here and what we were supposed to do. But then we have to practice Listening, because there is much noise coming from the brain and chaotic non-sense. Also, here is where free will comes in. We can choose to do this or not. In certain cases if this choice is to not follow Destiny then the Higher Level Self may choose (free will) to help establish lessons and/or road blocks to help the chaotic brain to realize that the current path is not the right path.

 

How many have been doing one thing, a particular path, but found everything so difficult? How many have had a certain thing happen in their lives that put them on a total different direction? I know I have. And this is what I am referring to.

 

Past, present, future are all NOW, but because of how we have chosen to create what we have created NOW, we can change things through free will action and through Listening to our Higher level Self. I put examples of this in A Light Warrior's Guide. The future can be changed each NOW. Patterns exist of what may be. In other words, if no action occurred THIS is the most likely outcome, but if creative action occurs, then THAT is the outcome. Shamanic "time-line" healing utilizes this to go see if another "time-line" exists for a person or sometimes, if powerful enough (ability to create) actually change a person's "time line". I believe and have found through experience that a person's ability to create is directly proportional to how much one has worked to raise the energy body vibration.

 

So, to me, it all comes down to raising the energy body vibration, become one with Higher Level self, practice Listening, and utilize our ability to create. IMO we DO have free will as well as Destiny.

[Marblehead]

What an interesting, and long, (Hehehe), post. Let's see how well I can respond.

 

Well, I'm very pleased you would be fully exercising your free will . Although you would be breaking the law. What kind of sword is it? I'm hoping I'm not gonna be impaled my a cheap Samurai sword imitation. I'm hoping for an American civil war antique sword. If not, I would prefer you do not exercise your free will.

 

I would probably use one (of a pair) of my Hanwei Jian Damascus steel swords. I would think you would take pleasure in having been done in by such a beautiful sword. (Hey, I am a Taoist. You didn't expect me to have a British sword did you?)

 

This is interesting, and actually before I fell asleep I was rather considering your mention of primates and their form of order.... ie. wrong doing = punishment.

 

Firsty, I should state that it is my belief of Daoism that the practice of Daoism, with sit down meditation and breath control and other, does, in fact strip away past conditioning, leaving a person bare but in touch with the Dao. I believe the Dao to be basically expansive and nurturing, so I don't believe people will go around punching people on the nose at every occasion. Although I will say, there seems to me, to be a rather dangerous cross over period of time.

 

In any case, your point about people higher up the social ladder with more free will is exactly connected to an example I will give in a moment. But I will say this, you say people are free to revolt, but are they? How free are they to actually revolt? For example, lets say I was American and I decide that the American government is quite crap actually and a lot of people agree with me. I could, I suppose, pursue democratic means, yet, as we all know in western countries, in a democracy there are, pretty much just two parties(sometimes three)with a high chance of office, due to the fact that to run a campaign you need serious money, who gives them the money? Multi national companies and so on. Will they give me the money? Doubtful when I tell them I don't agree with war particularly, or some of their other dubious ways of making money.

 

Will I be able to simply walk up to the white house and demand the keys? Of course not. The power structure is in place. So, I therefore choose your option, revolution . I call myself a freedom fighter, they call me a terrorist, and they have the power and the influence to make sure I'm portrayed in the media as a terrorist. Che Guevara is considered a hero in China, but perhaps the majority in America consider him otherwise. Who is right? I don't know. Should I win my revolution I can simply make sure that people consider me a hero, otherwise if I lose, I'm sure to be a social pariah. But...I certainly did exercise my free will. If I win, no doubt my free will will have brushed up against many others free will, to the point of me having to kill them. Am I right or wrong? I can certainly re-write the history books and make it look as though I am right, as all good revolutionaries/victors do.

 

Bearing in mind I don't consider killing an option(a luxury I have due to never having been conscripted)I would therefore say I have no free will in this situation, unless I believe so called democracy to be effective, which I don't by the way. A four year decision is no decision at all, it's not like they then ask the people about even a minority of the decisions they make in the four year term of office. Democracy, nice word, but one of the biggest cons ever perpetuated on the human race.

 

During my search for a path I read some of Albert Camus' work. In one, I forget which, he stated that a people (a society) have the right to revolt against their government if and when the government no longer complies with the will of its people. (He played an important part in Algeria gaining it independance from France.)

 

I read this after I had retired from the Army so it did not conflict with my sworn duties while I was serving.

 

Now, I grant you that revolt or revolution would be a very difficult undertaking because generally the government has all the best weapons. But there have been instances of bloodless revolutions.

 

I agree, democracy is an illusion. But, it is better than a dictatorship or fascism.

 

And yes, it is the victor who get to write the history so basically, whoever wins hold to the "truth". The terrorist will become the hero if he wins.

 

Anyway, onto a more light hearted scenario:

 

A group of monkeys live up a mountain together. Everythings going swimmingly well, bananas get eaten, monkeys swing off trees and the females get impregnated.

 

Order is in place due to the alpha male. Yet, sadly for the other male monkeys, they just can't get any action. Why? Because the alpha male considers himself to have boning rights. The females, in general, are inclined to agree with him.

 

Let's say the alpha male has really gotten tired of having to fight off the other males, and certainly, he's unlikely to say "oh, ok, do what you want", due to the fact he had to fight his way to the top. There had to be some benefit, and he'll be damned if he's gonna give that up.

 

So, lets say these monkeys actually have the power of speech, and the alpha male thinks 'how can I make my life much easier? I know, I'll create shame and social acceptance, I'll re-educate them'. So he gathers all the monkeys and then says "thou shalt not bone females, or your a bad monkey! And females, thou shalt not allow other male monkeys bonage, or that makes you a bit dirty'.

 

After some time each monkey is conditioned within the group that this is social acceptance and the line must be toed. Every now and then the males and females thoughts wander, but, luckily for the alpha male, they have been conditioned with shame and the fear of social ostracization.

 

One day, a rather cheeky monkey, that often likes to throw bananas at others heads for fun, spies a rather attractive female monkey that he's noticed frequently gives him a rather lingering monkey look. Now, he knows that he is not supposed to do anything, but then he comes up with the concept of free will, and decides this just isn't fair at all.

 

Luckily he has noticed when the alpha male goes for a poo behind the bushes there is just enough time to get in there, get the job done, and get the **** out. So, he carefully steals himself to the task at hand, and waits patiently. As the alpha male goes behind the bushes our cheeky monkey slides up beside the female monkey and whispers some pertinent sweet nothings in her ear and proceeds.

 

Unfortunately, unbeknownst to even the alpha male, he didn't in fact need a poo, but in fact only passed wind. And upon emerging from the bushes scratching his head sees one cheeky monkey with his pants down, so to speak, and a female with a rather happy expression on her face.

 

Well, all hell breaks lose, and after monkeys have been slapped about a bit by the alpha male, both are banished from monkey society. All the female monkeys tut and and say what a tart she was, and all the males say what a bad monkey guy he was(whilst secretly being jealous).

 

Back to the trees with the monkeys.

 

Yes, your story is a perfect example of how life, and evolution, works.

 

But then along came man with his concepts of fairness and sharing. It was decided that even those on the lower rungs of the ladder could get some too. Now, this might not have been the best course to take as far as evolution goes but it allowed for the greatest amount of peace amongst the members of society and allowed nearly all the opportunity to propagate.

 

But exclusive of man it is the strongest or the cleverest that gets to propagate the species. I think that there is more good in this than there is bad. It at least allows for the best chance for the species to be able to adapt and survive.

 

Now, I agree, in the monkey society the cheating couple would either be killed or run out of the society. In human society we are not quite that harsh (in the most part). We shame to violators and that's about it.

 

This above scenario is pretty much society as we have it, but obviously in a very simplistic form. My point being that all conditioning we receive, for the most part perhaps, benefits someone else and not ourselves.

 

The exercising of free will will often come up against societies mores, mores that were created to create 'order', yet intrinsically are not there for the benefit of the majority of individuals, but for the chosen few.

 

I guess my argument has become free will Vs. Societies mores, and the value of individual choice over societies choice of your, supposed, place.

 

I feel sure that were a monkey a Daoist he/she would certainly do as he pleased, not necessarily to the detriment of others, but, in fact, it would be somewhat impossible to avoid at some point. A Daoist, IMV, although one with the Dao, would always follow his/her heart, not the expectation of society that had been forced upon him without his ability to consciously choose otherwise.

 

Perhaps this is why in history Daoists ended up living alone up a mountain. I'm guessing monkeys and humans are somewhat similar, which is rather telling of how little we have progressed.

 

Yes, we are conditioned from the day we are born. (At least most of us are. Some parents do not take part in the conditioning of their children.)

 

We learn the rules and we are expected to comply. We become herd animals. Follow the leader. But then along come this guy who thinks (whatever the condition) "This is not fair!" So he exercises his free will in order to gain a little bit of fairness.

 

And I am of the belief that if I am being treated unfairly I have the right to demand fairness. And I hold that right for each and every one of us. We have the right to be treated fairly.

 

And yes, gaining fairness will sometimes go against what is the current belief of the society as a whole. Afterall, the majority of society has been conditioned to sit down and shut up and expect only what is allowed by society as a whole.

 

Therefore I believe that we must exercise our free will in order to gain fair treatment and fair (not necessarily equal) opportunities.

 

I have no problem with violating a rule if it means that I am staying true to my basic and root beliefs. Of course, If I am called to task I must be willing to pay the price. I must add here that this does not include the right to benefit oneself at the expense of another. We should honestly earn what we gain without causing unnecessary harm to others.

 

Taoists are not passive creatures. If somethings needs be done we do it. No regard to fame or blame. Even little regard to society's values of 'right and wrong'. Yes, we would follow our 'heart'. If we do onlt those things that our conscious allows us to do we will have no inner conflict after the fact regardless of how others view what we have ar have not done.

 

Yes, I think that it could be said that many Taoist Sages went off to the mountains because they just didn't want to play society's games. Sometimes it is best to not get involved.

 

I get you, I'm more interested in pursuing societies mores, which make up our conditioned selves creating a limitation of free will. Although it was I that used murder as a rather extreme example in the first place.

 

My question is who says society has a right to quantify right or wrong, I for one, do not agree that it does, bearing in mind it's based on an seeming extension of 'Gorillas in the mist'.

 

Just to further make my point(and yes I do realize I'm going on and on)I consider taxation to be no better than common theft. Yet society has decided it's right, good and proper. If you don't pay your taxes your a cad and a leech and everyone will throw rotting eggs at you, or at least they will want to. In truth they are secretly pissed at you getting away with it and them not, such is the society we have created.

 

Taxation, country wide, was first created in order to finance the war against the American revolt of the British. Thanks for that We can only blame ourselves. Yet, if you take 20 dollars off me and then give me a bag of sweets/candy, to the value of about a dollar and say 'see what nice things I did for you' I will say I could have done it myself and what happened to the other 19 dollars?

 

To take money in any form without a persons permission is theft. No two ways about it. It doesn't matter if it is government sanctioned. And these are the same people I'm supposed to listen to as to right and wrong.

 

It is my free will not to pay taxes. Because I don't agree with theft. Am I right or wrong? Having said that I do pay taxes but it's certainly not my choice.

 

You might ask me 'well, how is society as we know it supposed to function without us paying taxes', and I would say 'why are you making a problem you created my problem?'. I am not concerned with society, I care only about the individual and his/her ability to realize, and go beyond the conditioning that restricts his/her free will.

 

Oh well, I've probably taken up too much space on this page so apologies to all.....

 

Many concepts here. Let's see if I can respond in generalities.

 

Collective society gives itself the right to dictate to others what is acceptable and what is not. As long as the members of society can live within the rules with little or no conflict then all the members move along with the herd. When we have unreconcilable conflicts we then must excercise our free will. We have choices to make. Do we continue to have our conflicts and be unhappy, do we leave our society and go off on our own, or do we revolt against the establishment?

 

Paying taxes has always been a point of discontent. All too often government wastes what it collects and then has to increase the taxes. Many people cheat and don't pay their fair share. Others find ways to get a share of the taxes without giving anything in return.

 

Again, we have choices: we can pay our taxes no matter how high and unfair they are, we can cheat on our taxes and not pay our 'fair' share, we can start a revolution in order to force the government to lower the taxes, or we can stop having reportable income so we don't have to pay any taxes. (Joan Bias and Tom Paxton did that for a while back in the late 1960s/early 1970s.)

 

Bottom line is that thinking man(woman) make value judgements. We decide what is 'fair' in our own view. When we think things are fair we just keep rolling along. If we think things are pretty unfair but not worth the effort to try to change we just keep rolling along and are most of the time unhappy. Or we can try to make things better. Our efforts may well cause us to become at odds with what is acceptable. So the question would be: Are you willing to take responsibility for your actions if you are called to task for what you have done?

 

Our exercising of our free will "must" be accompanied with taking full responsibility for our actions.

 

Otherwise accept the concept of "destiny", sit down and shut up!

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

A taoist sage who has retired up to mountains no longer has any need for the restrictions of free will... Go figure

 

By retiring to the mountains, it is a symbol of returning to the source from whence the sage came. He or she comes out of the universe, and in leaving all cares behind, returns to the Mother/Womb of Creation. Its a symbolic journey undertaken by all 'warriors of the heart' who seek re-union with their true face.

 

Funnily though, the masses often use the common phrase, "I came into existence, or, I came into this world..." - how about saying "I came out of existence?" After all, the universe is governed by blind energy, and it is from this blind energy that all things are formed, and will forever continue to be re-formed. In many ways, the human race has evolved not by order, but from chaos. Things just happened the way it happened - a very astounding fluke shot, very often seen in a game of snooker or pool, a similar principle in action. In this view, it is difficult to say with conviction that Man has absolute free will. He may want to believe He does, but that does not alter the very real limits of His choices.

 

Alan Watts said, "Humans grow out of the universe in exactly the same fashion that apples grow out of apple trees".

 

That is the degree of one's relatively restricted Free Will. It is free within constraints and boundaries, only as far as the limits of our human-ness would allow. In that we find the limitations of Free Will.

 

It is when the boundary walls that hold us captive within this 'humanhood' collapses, that both Free Will and its horrible twin becomes totally meaningless, and we become like the sage who has gone up the mountain. What is astonishing and reassuring to know is that, even though some remove themselves physically to an inner sanctum, mentally they are still caught up in, as Ninpo puts it nicely, the mores of human-ness, while on the other hand, there are those who are shackled to the mores physically, yet mentally and spiritually their inner being moves unrestricted in those places that we can only dream or philosophize about (like i am doing now - shame on me!)

 

It may serve us well to remember that Free Will and the lack thereof are both notions created as a kind of convenience, for in truth, they are both Chains that bind - one made of gold, the other of iron. Those that want to believe they possess Free Will (as though we can really possess anything by choice) are merely enmeshed by a shinier, glossier fetter.

 

My 2 pence piece.

 

[Marblehead]

A taoist sage who has retired up to mountains no longer has any need for the restrictions of free will... Go figure

 

That is a fact. And if we each can find our own mountain to go to when we become troubled with the chains that bind there too would we be free of the restrictions of the physical.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

 

I would probably use one (of a pair) of my Hanwei Jian Damascus steel swords. I would think you would take pleasure in having been done in by such a beautiful sword. (Hey, I am a Taoist. You didn't expect me to have a British sword did you?)

 

 

I can live with Hanwei, not bad at all. I would encourage you to invest in an antique sword though, as the hanwei lacks a certain romance when doing away with me.

 

 

 

 

Back to the trees with the monkeys.

 

Yes, your story is a perfect example of how life, and evolution, works.

 

But then along came man with his concepts of fairness and sharing. It was decided that even those on the lower rungs of the ladder could get some too. Now, this might not have been the best course to take as far as evolution goes but it allowed for the greatest amount of peace amongst the members of society and allowed nearly all the opportunity to propagate.

 

But exclusive of man it is the strongest or the cleverest that gets to propagate the species. I think that there is more good in this than there is bad. It at least allows for the best chance for the species to be able to adapt and survive.

 

Now, I agree, in the monkey society the cheating couple would either be killed or run out of the society. In human society we are not quite that harsh (in the most part). We shame to violators and that's about it.

 

 

In general that story was a metaphor for the benefits in society as a whole and not just propagation rights.

 

I think 'shame' is the problem. It's a tool used to control individuals. In truth the level of shame put upon a person in western countries is quite minimal. I've realized I'm going from what I've seen and experienced in Asia. Some of the guilt/shame trips I've seen put on people by their own parents in order to get them to do what the parents want them to(which has benefits for the parents)is quite horrifying to me, it leads the offspring down a path that will create a whole life for them that they never wanted, yet, feel obligated to do. I've seen the pain that causes and the sadness in their eyes, so I've kind of got a bee in my bonnet around the topic of society/obligation/shame and free will.

 

The real problem is they have no comparison in the first place, as everyone around them(pretty much)has suffered the same. So they consider this fairly normal. Therefore, they rarely even consider an alternative. The prison of the conditioned mind is the most water tight prison ever built.

 

 

Otherwise accept the concept of "destiny", sit down and shut up!

 

:lol:

 

That's a bit strong! Problem is I don't really accept destiny as a fixed thing either. Ho hum. I'm back to free will.

 

Anyway, I think we understand each others views and there's not much further we can go with this. Thanks for the replies Marblehead

 

ps. I would replace your sword with a rubber one first, thanks for the tip off!

[fizix]

Free will is the devil's greatest trick.

[goldisheavy]

Hi All

 

I would be interested to know what position Taoists, Buddhists and Eastern Philosophers take on the argument for Free Will?

 

Since the obstruction is only imaginary, and everything is naturally free from the very beginning, the will is free.

 

I think pretty much all the Eastern philosophies agree on this. In fact there are some tales of the encounters between fatalists and Buddhists, for example, where the fatalists are exposed as frauds. There is one particular example that comes to mind of someone who was very calm. This someone encounters a Buddhist meditation master who at first is impressed. He's asking, "Why are you so calm?" And the calm guy says that "everything is predetermined by causes and conditions, so why worry." Upon hearing this the master exclaimed something like "Well I thought you were a Buddha, but turns out you're just a deluded moron."

 

Also Buddha himself disagreed with a hard causes and conditions case. In particular there was an argument between Buddha and Hindus who said that karma vipaka was frozen in place and couldn't be changed. In other words, these Hindus were saying, for example, if you commit murder, you're going to hell and there is nothing you can do about it. Buddha disagreed. Buddha said that bad karma can be dissolved in the good, just like one grain of salt inside a thimble of water makes it salty, but inside a big gourde of water is impossible to taste. So Buddha was saying that people with a big heart can commit quite a lot of wrongdoing, but still, due to their big heart, they will not have much, if any negative fruition. On the other hand, a small-hearted person would suffer grievously from even the most tiny of misdeeds. He then gave an example of a beggar being put to jail for owing a rupee while a rich man goes free even when hugely in debt.

 

All this I read in the Pali canon, but unfortunately I don't have the energy to cite it for you.

 

As for Taoists, they believe in destiny but destiny is governed by free will. You are destined for a certain future based on your disposition. When you change your disposition your destiny also changes. So destiny is not something fatalistic in Taoism, but it is something in flux. And then Taoists have examples for this too. For example someone heard it prophesied by a seer that he will die form starvation. This guy climbed into a tree and waited to die there. Some Taoist spirit saw this and came down in the form of a man to talk to this fool. This spirit asked the man why he was waiting in the tree. The man said it was foretold to him, based on the lines of his face, that he was going to die from hunger. The Taoist immortal said that, it's true that the lines of the face reflect one's current destiny. However, the destiny can be changed by changing one's disposition. And the immortal said that when you change your disposition your facial lines will also change. This man was elated. So this man in the tree said, "So I don't have to die from starvation?" And the immortal said, "That's right. In fact, since your disposition has changed, why don't you go back to the same seer and see what he foretells you this time." And this guy goes back and confirms that indeed now his fate is not to die from hunger but to die a wealthy man.

 

So most Taoist sages, it seems to me, also believe in free will.

 

Most spiritual people believe in free will. The only people who seriously do not are materialists, because free will comes into conflict with the doctrine of material causes being the ultimate ones.

Edited June 17, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

I can live with Hanwei, not bad at all. I would encourage you to invest in an antique sword though, as the hanwei lacks a certain romance when doing away with me.

 

Ha! When I decide to start a collection I looked at the prices of the antiques. I don't have that much money so imitations had to do for me. I do have two pair that were made 'on-order' (in China) so they are original in their own way.

 

In general that story was a metaphor for the benefits in society as a whole and not just propagation rights.

 

I think 'shame' is the problem. It's a tool used to control individuals. In truth the level of shame put upon a person in western countries is quite minimal. I've realized I'm going from what I've seen and experienced in Asia. Some of the guilt/shame trips I've seen put on people by their own parents in order to get them to do what the parents want them to(which has benefits for the parents)is quite horrifying to me, it leads the offspring down a path that will create a whole life for them that they never wanted, yet, feel obligated to do. I've seen the pain that causes and the sadness in their eyes, so I've kind of got a bee in my bonnet around the topic of society/obligation/shame and free will.

 

The real problem is they have no comparison in the first place, as everyone around them(pretty much)has suffered the same. So they consider this fairly normal. Therefore, they rarely even consider an alternative. The prison of the conditioned mind is the most water tight prison ever built.

 

Totally agree with this. I think that shame is second only to fear as far as keeping people 'in line' is concerned. Of course, both prevent a person from living their life naturally.

 

:lol:

 

That's a bit strong! Problem is I don't really accept destiny as a fixed thing either. Ho hum. I'm back to free will.

 

Anyway, I think we understand each others views and there's not much further we can go with this. Thanks for the replies Marblehead

 

ps. I would replace your sword with a rubber one first, thanks for the tip off!

 

Hey, you know me by now. I say what I feel needs be said. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I knew we had more in common as far as philosophical understand goes than we had displayed on a couple occasions. I am glad we had the opportunity for this discussion.

 

I will agree that one could easily hold to the concept of destiny because there are so many external variables that control our life that we oftentimes have few or even no choices.

 

But I still like to think that I do have choices and therefore free will.

 

BTW I do have a matched pair of unsharpened Tai Chi practice swords. They don't do much damage. (I do know they will kill a lamp shade though - I got a little carried away with my practice one day in the house and killed the little puppy.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Free will is the devil's greatest trick.

 

Hehehe. Well, like I said, sit down and shut up. (Sorry, couldn't resist that.)

 

Of course, I don't hold to the concept of 'devil' so the thought was invalid in my mind.

 

Oh well.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Most spiritual people believe in free will. The only people who seriously do not are materialists, because free will comes into conflict with the doctrine of material causes being the ultimate ones.

 

 

Nice post GIH. I liked it all except for this last paragraph.

 

Wouldn't you agree that many materialists believe in 'cause and effect' and that cause and effect is a form of free will?

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Will is a conditioned thing. But since all these conditions are inherently empty, there is variability or malleability based upon new conditions of influence. But, every choice you make is based upon so many different layers of experience and interpretation of experience based upon experience so on and so forth. So, only when emptiness is realized directly and constantly is the will conditioned in an awakened way for an individual Buddha. A Buddhas will reflects the realization of endless interconnectivity and endless malleability.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

BTW I do have a matched pair of unsharpened Tai Chi practice swords. They don't do much damage. (I do know they will kill a lamp shade though - I got a little carried away with my practice one day in the house and killed the little puppy.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

I do wish you'd stop over exciting yourself with those Jet Li movies.

 

Honestly, between Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Jet Li there must have been millions of dollars of damage done to furniture around the world. When Bruce Lee died world furniture sales dramatically declined.

 

 

Will is a conditioned thing. But since all these conditions are inherently empty, there is variability or malleability based upon new conditions of influence.

 

 

You make my head hurt you do! Any chance of some laymans terms?

 

Nice to see you here again by the way.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

 

 

You make my head hurt you do! Any chance of some laymans terms?

 

Nice to see you here again by the way.

 

Sorry... I didn't mean to hurt your head.

 

What I mean is that the idea of free will generally does not include the realization of how deep conditioning actually is within a single mind stream.

 

According to Buddhism, will is a conditioned thing. But since all conditions have no inherent existence, neither is will inherent. So the only way to liberate will from the bondage of suffering choices is to introduce it to the liberating conditions which in buddhism is the 8 fold noble path. The experiences and contemplations that are a result of the practice widens the individual's frame of reference, thus the experience of ones will deepens and strengthens until one realizes emptiness directly and one experiences endless interconnectivity and change ability (malleability or emptiness) as in you are not bound by inner static-ness anymore. "Will" then is a reflection of the highest realization of Buddhahood and flows virtuously with the interpretation of the universe that helps influence other wills' towards liberation. But, in a sense, there is no "free" will... there is only "freed" awareness of will. "Will" is a conditioned thing so it's just about aligning it with the liberating conditions of the Bodhisattva ideal instead of the selfish conditions of samsaric/worldly awareness.

 

In Buddhahood, your will is now a reflection of the needs of endless beings and is experienced as liberated in this condition of realizing interconnectivity/emptiness. You now find incredible joy in service of others with a widened sense of purpose. Your will now becomes an offering instead of a hoarding.

[Vajrahridaya]

What I'm trying to say is that in Buddhism there is no "universal will". There are just endless individual wills' that connect and co-create without an inherent essence or inherent will that is behind everything. Once you see emptiness directly, you trod on the path of the Bodhisattva. Seeing emptiness directly is not the same as having an experience of God, it's subtler because the experience follows the understanding of "right view". Though the experience may seem the same and might be mis-interpreted by a Samsaric path as "an experience of god", if you are being influenced by the conditions of "right view", you will not fall into this deviation of "God's will" which is generally the idea of a "free will" that is behind and inside everything.

 

This idea of "God's will" that is reified through some level of samadhi or meditative experience of expanded consciousness and love becomes in so many cases an excuse for so many deviant activities which do not lead down the Bodhisattva path to liberation and positive influence.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

What I mean is that the idea of free will generally does not include the realization of how deep conditioning actually is within a single mind stream.

 

I pretty much agree with what you have said. But yeah, you still talk funny. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I do wish you'd stop over exciting yourself with those Jet Li movies.

 

Hehehe.

 

Actually there was a movie, can't remember the name, where one of the guys, can't remember his name, (I don't remember much, do I?) who used the two-sword technique. I was very impressed and that is why I decided to buy matching pairs when I started buying swords.

 

Yeah, especially the Jackie Chan movies destroy a lot of stuff.

 

But, in addition to those three I like to add Tony Jaa. I have seen only one of his movies but am always on the watch for another one to show in my area.

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

What I'm trying to say is that in Buddhism there is no "universal will". There are just endless individual wills' that connect and co-create without an inherent essence or inherent will that is behind everything.

If there is a law by which this conditioning of wills happens. Then we can call that law universal. And we can call it the universal will.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes