Free Will

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

What I mean is that the idea of free will generally does not include the realization of how deep conditioning actually is within a single mind stream.

It is my understanding, and experience, that the "conditioning" yields to 'insight', to a truly stilled mind, and to the character of those that are sincerely interested in truth.. to accept 'conditioning' as the unsurmountable obstacle to 'free-will', is evidence of character too timid to explore its own existence..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

If there is a law by which this conditioning of wills happens. Then we can call that law universal. And we can call it the universal will.

 

I have poetically referred to dependent origination as universal will, the impetuous for movement through the longing for completion. The term "tathagatagarbha" refers to this in a way as well but more in the sense of Nirvana as the womb for the state of liberation, so it's really just referring to emptiness. Samsara moves through the will of lack and Buddhas move through the will of love and compassion, the feeling of fullness. But, the issue with this is the tendency to identify it all as one inherent being or a self existing essence, when the truth of dependent origination coupled with emptiness makes this conclusion impossible upon deeper investigation. It's just interconnected co-creativity. In Dzogchen many scholars refer to this as the "creative matrix" which is what the state of Rigpa opens upon and what the description of "Samantabhadra" (The All Good) in the Kunjed Gyalpo (The All Creating King) goes on and on about through different examples, but it's clarified as merely the nature of all our minds co-creating, not as one single mind, but as all of the mass of beings as being inherently empty but interconnected and thus constantly flowing, fluxing and evolving in endlessly varying directions. There is a difference; in terms of there being a self existing Universal Will that does everything and that everything is based upon as a universal Self vs. the interconnected but inherently empty creative chaos/order of it all. Samantabhadra is definitely not referring to an idea of a creator god that we must surrender to, but merely the all good nature of everything because it's all inherently empty of any binding power, thus always spontaneous, free and liberated, creatively fluxing as cosmos. Realizing this results in the Dharmakaya and is referred to as the Tathagatagarbha, the womb of enlightenment.

[Vajrahridaya]

If there is a law by which this conditioning of wills happens. Then we can call that law universal. And we can call it the universal will.

 

I have poetically referred to dependent origination as universal will, the impetuous for movement through the longing for completion. The term "tathagatagarbha" refers to this in a way as well but more in the sense of Nirvana as the womb for the state of liberation, so it's really just referring to emptiness. Samsara moves through the will of lack and Buddhas move through the will of love and compassion, the feeling of fullness. But, the issue with this is the tendency to identify it all as one inherent being or a self existing essence, when the truth of dependent origination coupled with emptiness makes this conclusion impossible upon deeper investigation. It's just interconnected co-creativity. In Dzogchen many scholars refer to this as the "creative matrix" which is what the state of Rigpa opens upon and what the description of "Samantabhadra" (The All Good) in the Kunjed Gyalpo (The All Creating King) goes on and on about through different examples, but it's clarified as merely the nature of all our minds co-creating, not as one single mind, but as all of the mass of beings as being inherently empty but interconnected and thus constantly flowing, fluxing and evolving in endlessly varying directions. There is a difference; in terms of there being a self existing Universal Will that does everything and that everything is based upon as a universal Self vs. the interconnected but inherently empty creative chaos/order of it all. Samantabhadra is definitely not referring to an idea of a creator god that we must surrender to, but merely the all good nature of everything because it's all inherently empty of any binding power, thus always spontaneous, free and liberated, creatively fluxing as cosmos. Realizing this results in the Dharmakaya and is referred to as the Tathagatagarbha, the womb of enlightenment.

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

It is my understanding, and experience, that the "conditioning" yields to 'insight', to a truly stilled mind, and to the character of those that are sincerely interested in truth.. to accept 'conditioning' as the unsurmountable obstacle to 'free-will', is evidence of character too timid to explore its own existence..

 

Be well..

 

Look more deeply into your stilled mind and realize the subtle conditions hidden within it. Your past lives will become apparent and you will see how the choices you make even while your mind is in a condition of stillness your will or impetus for movement is conditioned upon an endless stream of conditioning that manifests as primary inner conditions and secondary outer conditions. Your awareness does not have to be conditioned by this though when emptiness is cognized directly beyond motion and stillness, yin and yang, beyond coming and going, here or there, your awareness will be free as your will now moves with compassion rather than from a subtle sense of lack and static identity. In fluid realization of inter-dependency, your will flows in accordance to spontaneous virtue while your awareness freely fills everything equally. Will, or movement is still a conditioned thing, either motivated by bondage or motivated by compassion.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Sorry... I didn't mean to hurt your head.

 

What I mean is that the idea of free will generally does not include the realization of how deep conditioning actually is within a single mind stream.

 

According to Buddhism, will is a conditioned thing. But since all conditions have no inherent existence, neither is will inherent. So the only way to liberate will from the bondage of suffering choices is to introduce it to the liberating conditions which in buddhism is the 8 fold noble path. The experiences and contemplations that are a result of the practice widens the individual's frame of reference, thus the experience of ones will deepens and strengthens until one realizes emptiness directly and one experiences endless interconnectivity and change ability (malleability or emptiness) as in you are not bound by inner static-ness anymore. "Will" then is a reflection of the highest realization of Buddhahood and flows virtuously with the interpretation of the universe that helps influence other wills' towards liberation. But, in a sense, there is no "free" will... there is only "freed" awareness of will. "Will" is a conditioned thing so it's just about aligning it with the liberating conditions of the Bodhisattva ideal instead of the selfish conditions of samsaric/worldly awareness.

 

In Buddhahood, your will is now a reflection of the needs of endless beings and is experienced as liberated in this condition of realizing interconnectivity/emptiness. You now find incredible joy in service of others with a widened sense of purpose. Your will now becomes an offering instead of a hoarding.

 

Got it, understand it and agree with what you said. Absolutely.

 

 

Hehehe.

 

Actually there was a movie, can't remember the name, where one of the guys, can't remember his name, (I don't remember much, do I?) who used the two-sword technique. I was very impressed and that is why I decided to buy matching pairs when I started buying swords.

 

Yeah, especially the Jackie Chan movies destroy a lot of stuff.

 

But, in addition to those three I like to add Tony Jaa. I have seen only one of his movies but am always on the watch for another one to show in my area.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I have no idea who Tony Jaa is(I'll have a look later), I used to love Martial Arts movies, until I came here and they are on TV all the time....for some reason it was then I lost interest

 

There is a film you should watch that will be good for your furniture, I think it's an early Jet Li film(my memory is also failing me), it has a fantastic scene with a drunken Tai chi sword fight. If anything it's a good excuse for a drink first. Wish I could remember the name of it!!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Look more deeply into your stilled mind and realize the subtle conditions hidden within it. Your past lives will become apparent and you will see how the choices you make even while your mind is in a condition of stillness your will or impetus for movement is conditioned upon an endless stream of conditioning that manifests as primary inner conditions and secondary outer conditions. Your awareness does not have to be conditioned by this though when emptiness is cognized directly beyond motion and stillness, yin and yang, beyond coming and going, here or there, your awareness will be free as your will now moves with compassion rather than from a subtle sense of lack and static identity. In fluid realization of inter-dependency, your will flows in accordance to spontaneous virtue while your awareness freely fills everything equally. Will, or movement is still a conditioned thing, either motivated by bondage or motivated by compassion.

It is inappropriate to project your own self-imposed limitations upon those that have realized the bondage and compassion you speak of.. those same people that have realized the effects of bondage and compassion also cast them aside, freely and of their own accord.. you may feel helpless in your self-constructed prison of conceptual mis-understandings, but that is your burden, you chose it and you are firmly attached to it.. only 'you' can let it go.. And, letting it go is not the same as pretending it applies to others in the manner you have imposed upon yourself.. Don't stand in the way of those willing to accept the truth of existence, cloister yourself away with others equally consigned to a similar fate.. Or, choose your freedom..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

It is inappropriate to project your own self-imposed limitations upon those that have realized the bondage and compassion you speak of.. those same people that have realized the effects of bondage and compassion also cast them aside, freely and of their own accord.. you may feel helpless in your self-constructed prison of conceptual mis-understandings, but that is your burden, you chose it and you are firmly attached to it.. only 'you' can let it go.. And, letting it go is not the same as pretending it applies to others in the manner you have imposed upon yourself.. Don't stand in the way of those willing to accept the truth of existence, cloister yourself away with others equally consigned to a similar fate.. Or, choose your freedom..

 

Be well..

 

Mirror Mirror in your hand...

 

 

I see you quite clearly...

[fizix]

Hehehe. Well, like I said, sit down and shut up. (Sorry, couldn't resist that.)

 

Of course, I don't hold to the concept of 'devil' so the thought was invalid in my mind.

 

Oh well.

 

Peace & Love!

Ah, yes, your child-aged concept of 'devil', perhaps you should look more into things....

 

Your ego is heavy, it is you who needs go outside, and literally sit down and shut up, then ask how yourself how you got there.

 

Sure, free will runs the world, but who runs free will?

 

You are too attached to your ideas, when in reality, all ideas are the same single entity, the same energy.

 

Those without the treasure will never enjoy the great paradoxical mystery.

 

4,480 in such a short time Marblehead, it is amusing and unsurprising that those tactical theorists with so much egotistic ideas invested into a community happen to think so highly of themselves, I can refer to you as King Marblehead if you'd prefer; I beg, I urge you to sit down and shut up, for it seems you are incapable of doing so with all of your talk and no practice. Go, go outside and do real practice in the sunlight and fresh air and perhaps engage a female for once. 5,000000 posts on a message board is not the route to liberation, you are in your own ego imposed bondage.

Edited June 17, 2010 by fizix

[Marblehead]

There is a film you should watch that will be good for your furniture, I think it's an early Jet Li film(my memory is also failing me), it has a fantastic scene with a drunken Tai chi sword fight. If anything it's a good excuse for a drink first. Wish I could remember the name of it!!

 

I think I know the one you are speaking of and I have seen it (The Drunken Master - a portrailal of someone who really did exist). Jet Li really is an expert with the sword but we don't see that aspect of his knowledge very often in the films.

 

Yes, check out Tony Jaa. There are some clips on the internet from his movies.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Ah, yes, your child-aged concept of 'devil', perhaps you should look more into things....

 

Your ego is heavy, it is you who needs go outside, and literally sit down and shut up, then ask how yourself how you got there.

 

Sure, free will runs the world, but who runs free will?

 

You are too attached to your ideas, when in reality, all ideas are the same single entity, the same energy.

 

Those without the treasure will never enjoy the great paradoxical mystery.

 

4,480 in such a short time Marblehead, it is amusing and unsurprising that those tactical theorists with so much egotistic ideas invested into a community happen to think so highly of themselves, I can refer to you as King Marblehead if you'd prefer; I beg, I urge you to sit down and shut up, for it seems you are incapable of doing so with all of your talk and no practice. Go, go outside and do real practice in the sunlight and fresh air and perhaps engage a female for once. 5,000000 posts on a message board is not the route to liberation, you are in your own ego imposed bondage.

 

WoW! You apparently have a problem with me. Too bad for you. I don't have a problem with you.

 

No, I will hold firm to my ego because I love my ego.

 

I run my free will. There is no one who loves me more than I love myself.

 

Yes, I am attached to my ideas because first, they are "my" ideas, and secondly, "my" ideas serve me very well indeed. Why would I give up something that has served me perfectly? No, all ideas are not the same single entity. If this were so you and I would not be disagreeing right now. You have your ideas and I have mine. Maybe yours work for you. I don't know. But I do know that mine work for me.

 

So you suddenly know that I don't practice? My!, how omniscient of you. Should I call you God?

 

I just happen to be inside on break from working outside. I know what outside is. I interact with nature all the time.

 

What would I want to engage a female for? I am so old I can't even get an erection anymore. And why have you suddenly taken an interest in my sex life? Don't you have one of your own?

 

Oh, No!!! Another egomaniac worried about how many posts I make on the forum. Are you feeling little and without value just because I post often? What's the problem with someone posting often? If I agreed with you every time you made a post I would be willing to bet my next retirement check that you would compliment me for posting often.

 

And a side note, I am not bound by anything or anyone therefore I am in no need for liberation. I am a white male over 21 years of age and I do as I damn well please as long as it harms none other. (Of course, I do try to comply with the laws of society but when they are too restrictive I exercise my free will and take full responsibility for my actions.

 

And so, now you see what a screwed up mess I am. Do you have any recommendations that might be useful to me in straightening my life out?

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Mirror Mirror in your hand...

 

 

 

I see you quite clearly...

Nice!! Yes, i can understand your believing that sort of imagery to be 'clear'.. but, more appropriately stated:

 

Mirror mirror in your mind

do the lessons of 'loving-kind'

Breed a need so 'clearly' blind

That even freedom you cannot find

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

Nice!! Yes, i can understand your believing that sort of imagery to be 'clear'.. but, more appropriately stated:

 

Mirror mirror in your mind

do the lessons of 'loving-kind'

Breed a need so 'clearly' blind

That even freedom you cannot find

 

Be well..

 

Freedom and feeling threatened do not go hand in hand. You do need to look at this condition of stillness you so speak about more deeply. There are layers to it. Stilling the conscious concepts in your mind is merely one step. Then you get to the subconscious speedy stuff where the ancient files in your sub-conscious flutter quickly by like seeming nonsense, then you get to more deeply still stillness, then more clear visions, then traveling, and deep bliss and peace that makes the cells in your brain feel like they are percolating with fresh and clean energy, and your body feels it too and you don't sleep so much and your dreams are deep and clear, lucid and you are awake during sleep. Then you go into your unconscious and start having deeper and deeper visions and memories come up as re-experiences and you time travel. Then even deeper stillness, bliss and peace, then even deeper illumination and more integrated states of form and emptiness...

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Freedom and feeling threatened do not go hand in hand. You do need to look at this condition of stillness you so speak about more deeply. There are layers to it. Stilling the conscious concepts in your mind is merely one step. Then you get to the subconscious speedy stuff where the ancient files in your sub-conscious flutter quickly by like seeming nonsense, then you get to more deeply still stillness, then more clear visions, then traveling, and deep bliss and peace that makes the cells in your brain feel like they are percolating with fresh and clean energy, and your body feels it too and you don't sleep so much and your dreams are deep and clear, lucid and you are awake during sleep. Then you go into your unconscious and start having deeper and deeper visions and memories come up as re-experiences and you time travel. Then even deeper stillness, bliss and peace, then even deeper illumination and more integrated states of form and emptiness...

Hi Vajrahridaya: Your description reveals a laborious process that 'can' lead where you suggest after appropriate discernment, but more likely one gets lost in the 'process'.. the same result can happen in an instant of true clarity.. in an instant of pure insight.. The 'mountain' has many paths, choose wisely..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

The 'mountain' has many paths, choose wisely..

 

Be well..

 

Actually, there are many mountains, and some are higher than others. So, choose the mountain which you climb wisely and don't get caught in the peaceful and blissful rest stops that seem so very satisfying.

[nac]

Most Buddhists believe in free will, generally speaking. I'm glad Taoists believe in it too because I was under the impression that they were mostly strict determinists. Destiny is incompatible with free will, you know. If everything was predetermined as an undifferentiated whole, then where's the role of free will? I think the Huayan school, and consequently some branches of Zen, are an exception in that they subscribe to the popular Chinese cultural belief in fate. I'm curious as to how they resolve this preconception with the Buddhist worldview. Even without going into details, the Buddha explicitly calls determinism a pernicious view in the Tipitaka.

[nac]

Some highly Sinicized fringe groups in China even teach that sick people shouldn't be treated without proper healing rituals because the negative karma would only manifest in a different form unless purified with spiritual power. Such groups are considered heterodox by mainstream Buddhism. I checked. The best answer I got was something like: ripening karma doesn't stop ripening because of medical treatment.

[nac]

Eh? Why would the non-existence of an absolute Self entail the lack of free will? It simply doesn't follow. I think some of you are placing too much trust on untrained intuition.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Actually, there are many mountains, and some are higher than others. So, choose the mountain which you climb wisely and don't get caught in the peaceful and blissful rest stops that seem so very satisfying.

Cool.. though it is a common and simple phrase, "One mountain/many paths".. there's always someone to shape the simplicity to fit 'their' perspective.. so, i won't explain the original 'message', you have no intention of understanding..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

Cool.. though it is a common and simple phrase, "One mountain/many paths".. there's always someone to shape the simplicity to fit 'their' perspective.. so, i won't explain the original 'message', you have no intention of understanding..

 

Be well..

 

Actually that common phrase of "one mountain/many paths" is one based upon the idea that all things equal one substance. Since the truth of dependent origination/emptiness shows that this is not so, I also do. The only paths that believe your favorite statement to be true, which are most mystical paths, take up meditation as the end all be all. Which it seems that you do with your "still mind" clinging.

 

This does not lead to liberation according to the Buddha, but only a high level rebirth. You can experience this truth directly if you go deeper into your still mind. I used to believe as you do TzuJanLi with all sorts of "still mind" experience to back it up and all sorts of teachers from different traditions to support this idealism.

 

It was quite a shock to realize through a deeper direct experiencing that I was wrong. It took me some years of contemplation and re-evaluation of my "one mountain/many paths" experiences in reference to dependent origination/emptiness to really get over my "One Self, many people" philosophy that is supported by most mystical traditions. To become one with God and to become a God or a powerful "immortal" is not the same as realizing Buddhahood.

 

This has nothing to do with mere conceptual vs. non-conceptual either. The idea that stilling your mind and all will be fine is an idealism which the Buddha pulled the rug from under long ago. You might be fine for this life, or even the next few lives, but without going deeper, the path to true awakening is not realized.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

 

But, in addition to those three I like to add Tony Jaa. I have seen only one of his movies but am always on the watch for another one to show in my area.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Oh, now I know, Mr. Ong Bak, ya, he's great. Only seen two of his movies, but I like him a lot. I'd like to see you jumping over your car Marblehead.

 

 

 

What would I want to engage a female for? I am so old I can't even get an erection anymore.

 

 

Too much information!!!

 

 

 

Do you have any recommendations that might be useful to me in straightening my life out?

 

 

Come back to Asia, one walk down the street will sort out that erection problem in no time at all!!!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

 

Come back to Asia, one walk down the street will sort out that erection problem in no time at all!!!

 

How is that?

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Actually that common phrase of "one mountain/many paths" is one based upon the idea that all things equal one substance. Since the truth of dependent origination/emptiness shows that this is not so, I also do. The only paths that believe your favorite statement to be true, which are most mystical paths, take up meditation as the end all be all. Which it seems that you do with your "still mind" clinging.

 

This does not lead to liberation according to the Buddha, but only a high level rebirth. You can experience this truth directly if you go deeper into your still mind. I used to believe as you do TzuJanLi with all sorts of "still mind" experience to back it up and all sorts of teachers from different traditions to support this idealism.

 

It was quite a shock to realize through a deeper direct experiencing that I was wrong. It took me some years of contemplation and re-evaluation of my "one mountain/many paths" experiences in reference to dependent origination/emptiness to really get over my "One Self, many people" philosophy that is supported by most mystical traditions. To become one with God and to become a God or a powerful "immortal" is not the same as realizing Buddhahood.

 

This has nothing to do with mere conceptual vs. non-conceptual either. The idea that stilling your mind and all will be fine is an idealism which the Buddha pulled the rug from under long ago. You might be fine for this life, or even the next few lives, but without going deeper, the path to true awakening is not realized.

 

 

Just your way of reinforcing the ego and feeling "special".

[Vajrahridaya]

Just your way of reinforcing the ego and feeling "special".

 

Nope... it's just what the Buddha taught.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Nope... it's just what the Buddha taught.

 

So the Buddha's ultimate reality is different then from everything else? All the Buddhists end up at the end of time in a different space/time? Man, you did drink the Kool Aid...

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Actually that common phrase of "one mountain/many paths" is one based upon the idea that all things equal one substance. Since the truth of dependent origination/emptiness shows that this is not so, I also do. The only paths that believe your favorite statement to be true, which are most mystical paths, take up meditation as the end all be all. Which it seems that you do with your "still mind" clinging.

You are sadly uninformed and terminally attached to your own imaginings.. your use of the word 'meditation' reveals your ignorance of its meaning and functionality.. your constricted view that "dependent origination/emptiness" represents 'truth', further reveals your inability to comprehend reality.

This does not lead to liberation according to the Buddha,

Please understand that invoking 'Buddha' as an appeal to Authority, has no meaning.. Buddha was just another 'meditator' of the sort you disparaged in the paragraph above, and one prone to believing his own dark imaginings..

To become one with God and to become a God or a powerful "immortal" is not the same as realizing Buddhahood.

Neither 'God', nor Buddha, nor 'Buddhahood' has any meaning.. they are 'descriptions' of a direct experience with the 'Totality of Reality', and no further descriptions are valid.. the very best we can do is 'point' the most simple and most direct 'way' for another BEing to have their own direct experience with the 'Totality of Reality'.. that 'pointing' does not include 'paths or rituals', it is most beneficial as 'Life' itself, then, as the Clarity that reveals the "ISness" of it all..

This has nothing to do with mere conceptual vs. non-conceptual either. The idea that stilling your mind and all will be fine is an idealism which the Buddha pulled the rug from under long ago. You might be fine for this life, or even the next few lives, but without going deeper, the path to true awakening is not realized.

This is the sad nonsense the religions have pandered for thousands of years.. the mindless lullabye that puts sentient beings to sleep.. I, AM awake, not blundering through rituals hoping to find a way to a better reincarnation, while cheering for the Buddha Team.. THAT, is the trap that keeps you in cycles of repeated maddness, designed insure lifetimes of devout patrons..

 

Liberation is a choice away, a single instance of pure Clarity disolves ALL 'paths'.. it is the attachment to the 'Path' that leads you astray.. i cannot be more blunt, and more clear.. you have invested so much in your 'conversion' you will not see your own Liberation.. so, enjoy Life in the prison of Buddha's shadow, no one but 'you' can escape..

 

Be well..