bindo Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Thank you xabir 2005 and Astral Monk for your well thought out responses. Those were the kind of answers I was looking for. Â I'm not trying to challenge anyone's beliefs so much as I 'm trying to understand them. Thank you! Â Â Â As far as Sri Aurobindo's philosophy being advaita non dual brahman....in essence it is correct, but not in any traditional way, so it's difficult to categorize it since he broke from traditional Indian thought. Â Ken Wilber and Sri Aurobindo are too different to just slap the same label on both of them. Â ***I'm abandoning this thread*** Thank you everyone for your replies. Edited January 8, 2010 by bindo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 8, 2010 Please don't assume this article speaks 100% for me! I didn't write it. The title of the article sucks, among other problems. I don't believe Buddha made an error, but I do believe in spiritual evolution. Â As a student of Sri Aurobindo's teachings, I can assure you he had nothing but great respect for Buddha. Â There are so many differing opinions about the true teachings of the Buddha that one is either forced to generalize or say nothing. Otherwise a simple article would become book length so everyone could be addressed. Â While his tone could be a little softer, I don't think the author shows contempt for Buddhism. He is only suggesting there is more, beyond what the Buddha taught. Â Despite what is written on the internet, Sri Aurobindo is not a Hindu. He was in his younger years for some 12 years only. Later becoming somewhat critical of Hinduism, at least as a formal religion. (But that's a whole different topic). Â I agree Buddha (and Lao Tzu) were way ahead of their time. I also believe Sri Aurobindo is way ahead of our present time. Â I think this article was based on the following quote by Sri Aurobindo. Â "The traditions of the past are very great in their own place, in the past, but I do not see why we should merely repeat them and not go farther. In the spiritual development of the consciousness upon earth the great past ought to be followed by a greater future." Â Sri Aurobindo The Integral Yoga p.35 Â Aurobindo focused on Hindu Scriptures, The Vedas, Upanishads, interpreted Yoga (a Very Hindu Practice) and yet is not a Hindu? Surely you jest? Â Thank you xabir 2005 and Astral Monk for your well thought out responses. Those were the kind of answers I was looking for. Â I'm not trying to challenge anyone's beliefs so much as I 'm trying to understand them. Thank you! As far as Sri Aurobindo's philosophy being advaita non dual brahman....in essence it is correct, but not in any traditional way, so it's difficult to categorize it since he broke from traditional Indian thought. Â Ken Wilber and Sri Aurobindo are too different to just slap the same label on both of them. Â ***I'm abandoning this thread*** Thank you everyone for your replies. Â Indian philosophy (of which Advaita is a part) never calls for dogmatic adherence to something. It provides a framework within which a thinker should intelligently navigate. There is nothing "un-Hindu" about Aurbindo's work. In fact it is very Hindu and very much in line with his Vedic lineage. He was a Rishi in the classic Upanishadic/Vedic tradition and although his language was english, he has presented Upanishadic thought. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Blasto you paid thousands of dollars for organic food and mantra chanting in Iowa? How was that?  Also all your music examples were WESTERN Music -- which Indeed I do dismiss all in one gesture. I happen to be listening to Anuradha Paudwal bhagans right now -- drowns out my dad's t.v. -- while I sit in full-lotus to heal my parents' of their constant battle against the colds that my sister's family chronically transmit when they visit. haha.  O.K. Shakira is possibly not Western so I'll check that out. You can check out my nonwestern music propaganda as Taoism blog http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com  Two seconds of Shakira told me she's definitely Western. Yep. Let's generalize the subject of music.  Imagine what would happen if we generalized the subject of music the way the subject of Buddhism gets generalized. When speaking of music, it would all be the same. Brittany Spears, Stravinsky, Bach, Jimi Hendrix, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Shakira, children's lullabies, all the same, all equal in sophistication, all emoting the same reaction, all worthy of the same artistic merit...  This is Wilkinson's Straw Dog. The number of misrepresentations in this essay are too numerous and too convoluted to possibly plow through in this forum. The intellectual level that has been attained by the decades-old academic dialogue between Buddhism and the physical, biological, social and behavioral sciences leaves Wilkinson's ancient animosities in the dust. When I was at Maharishi International University, back in the 90s, the contempt for Buddhist thought was off the charts. Buddha recognized the corrupt Hindu orthodoxy of his day for what it was, and some folks are still holding the grudge.  The fact that the Buddha realized the constructed nature of the self and the world(s) we create, 2,500 years before our own postmodern realization, our modern pyschological and ecological sciences, is THE testament to his imaginative genius. He lived in the Iron Age, but with respect to the Big Questions, he was way ahead of anyone at the time (with the exception of Lao Tse, of course). PS - For one of the most respected pieces of contemporary Buddhist scholarship pertaining to agnostic Buddhism, you can pick up "Buddhism Without Beliefs" by Stephen Batchelor. Batchelor's yet-to-be-released book is entitled "Confessions of a Buddhist Aetheist." Stripped of all the orthodoxies that typically acrete around original ideas, the essence of what the Buddha taught is remarkably consistent with cutting edge science of all kinds. Sadly, his teachings get bantered about with all the recklessness of Jesus' alleged teachings. Hard to avoid, I presume. Edited January 8, 2010 by drewhempel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bindo Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Edited January 8, 2010 by bindo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Edited January 8, 2010 by drewhempel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted January 8, 2010 Drew, with all due respect, in spite of your brilliant 23rd century mind, i think you are well-stuck with your obsession around this Full Lotus thing. If ever rebirth is a reality, i'd say in your past life you were some hermit who spent 50 years sitting in some cave obsessing over this posture, and carried the seeds over to this life, still unable to shake it off. Looks like its gonna be another re-run in your next life buddy. Be prepared! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted January 8, 2010 Have you read my new book yet? Â http://www.lulu.com/content/8177540 Â It's about how the Full-lotus is really just the most efficient practice of the yin-yang ratios -- as a tetrahedron is made up of 8 triangles each 2:3:4 ratios and 2:3 is yang while 3:4 is yin. Â So it's not just the full-lotus -- all of qigong and even the three gunas of Vedic philosophy are based on this natural resonance revolution. Â Still last night in my dream Chunyi Lin was trying to tell me about my past lives. haha. Â Ramana Maharshi has a good response about that old hang up. Â Drew, with all due respect, in spite of your brilliant 23rd century mind, i think you are well-stuck with your obsession around this Full Lotus thing. If ever rebirth is a reality, i'd say in your past life you were some hermit who spent 50 years sitting in some cave obsessing over this posture, and carried the seeds over to this life, still unable to shake it off. Looks like its gonna be another re-run in your next life buddy. Be prepared! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bindo Posted January 8, 2010 Does anybody on this forum have the ability to actually stay on topic? Holy crap, man. Â Â Drew, they didn't teach anyone to depend on "shakti transmissions". It's called darshan and doesn't depend on whether or not the "guru" is alive. It's a natural occurence of one's spiritual practice, in this case from the Divine Mother. Â Whatever is currently going on in the Ashram has nothing to do with Aurobindo's teachings. Aurobindo never wanted an ashram in the first place. Others say the ashram has had problems since 1920, or whenever The Mother took over it's operations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted January 8, 2010 Well as long as we get the lingo down. It's all really just technicalities in the end -- bureaucratic formalities, etc. Yes perfection is in our midst. Â Carry on. Please. Â Does anybody on this forum have the ability to actually stay on topic? Holy crap, man. Drew, they didn't teach anyone to depend on "shakti transmissions". It's called darshan and doesn't depend on whether or not the "guru" is alive. It's a natural occurence of one's spiritual practice, in this case from the Divine Mother. Â Whatever is currently going on in the Ashram has nothing to do with Aurobindo's teachings. Aurobindo never wanted an ashram in the first place. Others say the ashram has had problems since 1920, or whenever The Mother took over it's operations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Encephalon Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Blasto you paid thousands of dollars for organic food and mantra chanting in Iowa? How was that? Â It was extraordinary. I spent the first morning in Iowa on my back, under my '65 Valiant, in the snow, in a -15 degree temperature, removing the frozen hoses from my engine block and thawing them out in the locker room (I failed to adjust my antifreeze mixture for cryogenic weather conditions). I'm just lucky my engine block didn't rupture. Â I only lasted six months. It was hands down THE most dysfunctional environment I've ever been in, and I've lived in many different situations. They were perhaps the most deluded, anti-intellectual, superstitious and sexually repressed group of folks I've ever witnessed, but yeah, the food was good, and the chicks were hot, especially all the Eastern Europeans. They were only having sex with each other, evidently, because most of the men were just too fucked up. Â Anyway, I sold my mantra on Ebay. But enough about MIU. Where's the DMT? Â Sorry for the slightly tangential departure from topic. Edited January 8, 2010 by Blasto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted January 8, 2010 Vivekananda was also a FREEMASON and Aurobindo certainly had a strong political engagement -- he had to hide out in the French enclave for example. Â Vivekananda taught that Western science is the EXTERNAL PATH. Aurobindo taught similarly. Â Ramana Maharshi, on the other hand, DISAGREED WITH AUROBINDO and stated explicitly: Â THERE IS NO EVOLUTION. Â So actually Vivekananda and Aurobindo were Westernized and materialistic compared to Ramana Maharshi. Â Does that mean Ramana Maharshi is better? No all three were working from the history of patriarchal Brahminism. Â So while Ramana Maharshi practiced pure left-brain mind yoga as logical inference Vivekananda and Aurobindo incorporated karma yoga, raja yoga, etc. with the intention of making physical reality improved, etc. Â But the technology to "improve" society was still based on left-brain axiomatic logic, as per the history of Vedic science using "divide and average" mathematics. This is still a patriarchial Brahminism because it attempts to "contain infinity" through geometry -- which is also what Freemasonry is. The Pythagorean Theorem has been traced to 3,000 BCE India by Professor Abraham Seidenberg. Â So the technology is from Brahmin ritualistic geometry relying on mass ritual sacrifice. First it was used for chariot technology -- to find the center of the circle -- but was justified as converting circular female altars for lunar energy into square solar altars for patriarchal Brahminism -- I'm talking about the Pythagorean Theorem. Â Yeah so the West is just an extension of Vedic science and Vedic spirituality. Â Hindu Nationalism has nothing to do with Sanatana Dharma (or Eternal Dharma which we call Hinduism). Hindu Nationalism is a political backlash against corrosion of cultural values in Indian society and marginalization of a group (majority) of Indians. Â Sri Aurobindo and Swami Vivekananda were 200% Hindu in the sense that they belonged, learned from and taught Sanatana Dharma. No amount of new-agey and Humanist wishywashy thinking is going to change that fact. Â The fact that the "followers" of these two stalwarts of Hinduism tend to now claim certain things due to political and social opportunism is not the same as Swamiji or Sri Aurobindo rejecting their Hindu roots! Â Yes...they both espoused Selfless service of all Humanity and a certain Universality, but that was because of Advaita Vedanta, which was their core discipline of spiritual and philosophical rigor, not some new-agey touchy-feely whim! Â Â Sorry about that whole antifreeze deal. As a Minnesotan I've disowned cars since 2001 -- preferring to bike in the winter -- but my parents are forcing me to take some remedial AARP driving exam, etc. haha. Â Still that is truly amazing. there's been a lot of exposes on T.M. including John Lennon and Yoko Ono taking on the big M himself. Â Glad you survived and hope you can work through all that pent up sexual fantasy tension. I'm still dreaming about my first love from middle school even though we were just Platonic. haha. Â It was extraordinary. I spent the first morning in Iowa on my back, under my '65 Valiant, in the snow, in a -15 degree temperature, removing the frozen hoses from my engine block and thawing them out in the locker room (I failed to adjust my antifreeze mixture for cryogenic weather conditions). I'm just lucky my engine block didn't rupture. Â I only lasted six months. It was hands down THE most dysfunctional environment I've ever been in, and I've lived in many different situations. They were perhaps the most deluded, anti-intellectual, superstitious and sexually repressed group of folks I've ever witnessed, but yeah, the food was good, and the chicks were hot, especially all the Eastern Europeans. They were only having sex with each other, evidently, because most of the men were just too fucked up. Â Anyway, I sold my mantra on Ebay. But enough about MIU. Where's the DMT? Â Sorry for the slightly tangential departure from topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markern Posted January 8, 2010 It was extraordinary. I spent the first morning in Iowa on my back, under my '65 Valiant, in the snow, in a -15 degree temperature, removing the frozen hoses from my engine block and thawing them out in the locker room (I failed to adjust my antifreeze mixture for cryogenic weather conditions). I'm just lucky my engine block didn't rupture. Â I only lasted six months. It was hands down THE most dysfunctional environment I've ever been in, and I've lived in many different situations. They were perhaps the most deluded, anti-intellectual, superstitious and sexually repressed group of folks I've ever witnessed, but yeah, the food was good, and the chicks were hot, especially all the Eastern Europeans. They were only having sex with each other, evidently, because most of the men were just too fucked up. Â Anyway, I sold my mantra on Ebay. But enough about MIU. Where's the DMT? Â Sorry for the slightly tangential departure from topic. Â hahaha what kind of place was this? What were they practicing and what did they belive to get so disturbed? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bindo Posted January 9, 2010 You've been misinformed. Â This is from Sri Aurobindo's own pen; Â "The Ashram has nothing to do with Hindu religion or culture or any religion or nationality. The truth of the Divine which is the spiritual reality behind all religions and the descent of the supramental which is not known to any religion are the sole things which will be the foundation of the work of the future". - The Integral Yoga p.353 Â Many believe a split has occured between sanatana dharma and Hinduism, including Sri Aurobindo. Not everybody considers them the exact same thing. Or they will differentiate between original Hinduism and conventional Hinduism, or lower Hinduism and higher Hinduism. Â He said he doesn't care if Hinduism crumbles and disappears from the face of the earth. Would a Hindu say that? Â If you want to believe he was a Hindu, go ahead. I don't care. If you do the research, you'll find plenty of evidence, from his own pen, that shows he wasn't a Hindu. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted January 9, 2010 You've been misinformed. Â This is from Sri Aurobindo's own pen; Â "The Ashram has nothing to do with Hindu religion or culture or any religion or nationality. The truth of the Divine which is the spiritual reality behind all religions and the descent of the supramental which is not known to any religion are the sole things which will be the foundation of the work of the future". - The Integral Yoga p.353 Â Many believe a split has occured between sanatana dharma and Hinduism, including Sri Aurobindo... Â I wish the Buddha could come back and have the opportunity for an interview with it. The Buddha would certainly agree that the original essence we are all made of (spirit/consciouness) is formless and trascends all reality. Â Now, Buddhism represented an off-shoot of organised and established Hinduism very much like a big large elephant with many different defined elements. The Buddha disagreed with that and came up with a solution. Â When you are deep into Vipassana practice the surface becomes clear and form dissolves letting us get a clearer picture of the ultimate reality: NO MIND-PEELED MIND-BEYOND MIND-BEYOND THE NO MIND. Conceptualisation loses its value. Â Religion is FORM. I personally prefer to stay away from anything that gives you a path to follow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobby Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) If we take an unvarnished look at what Buddha taught, not the kind of humanism it has morphed into today, it can only be understood as a strategy of escapism based on a denial of the World, the Feminine Principle and the Human Soul. -quote. Â this is incorrect.... Â buddha didn`t deny them.... Â he simply didn`t address that matter for one simple reason..... Â his teachings are for the elimination of suffering and nothing else..... Â when asked about god buddha said..... Â the existence of god can not be proven nor disproven..... Â therefore to debate it is a waste of time.... Â however the existence of suffering can be proven quite easily..... Â because everyone suffers..... Â in the realms of samsara.... Edited January 9, 2010 by bobby Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 9, 2010 You've been misinformed. Â This is from Sri Aurobindo's own pen; Â "The Ashram has nothing to do with Hindu religion or culture or any religion or nationality. The truth of the Divine which is the spiritual reality behind all religions and the descent of the supramental which is not known to any religion are the sole things which will be the foundation of the work of the future". - The Integral Yoga p.353 Â Many believe a split has occured between sanatana dharma and Hinduism, including Sri Aurobindo. Not everybody considers them the exact same thing. Or they will differentiate between original Hinduism and conventional Hinduism, or lower Hinduism and higher Hinduism. Â He said he doesn't care if Hinduism crumbles and disappears from the face of the earth. Would a Hindu say that? Â If you want to believe he was a Hindu, go ahead. I don't care. If you do the research, you'll find plenty of evidence, from his own pen, that shows he wasn't a Hindu. Â No you are mistaken. I don't blame you...there's a lot of vested interest in promoting all Yoga as somehow non-Hindu, so people of other faiths can feel less hypocritical about practicing... Â I give you the Uttarpara Speech of Sri Aurobindo in which he talks about Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma and Nationalism). It is a good idea to not keep a limited view of Aurobindo, because he was a lot more than the founder of Integral Yoga. First and foremost, he was a stalwart who revitalized Hinduism and The Modern Indian Nation, acting as the muse and guiding light for India's Freedom Movement. Â Sri Aurobindo Uttarpara Speech 30 May 1909 By Sri Aurobindo When I was asked to speak to you at the annual meeting of your Sabha, it was my intention to say a few words about the subject chosen for today, the subject of the Hindu religion. I do not know now whether I shall fulfil that intention; for as I sat here, there came into my mind a word that I have to speak to you, a word that I have to speak to the whole of the Indian Nation. It was spoken first to myself in jail and I have come out of jail to speak it to my people. It was more than a year ago that I came here last. When I came I was not alone; Uttarpara Speech 2 one of the mightiest prophets of Nationalism (Bepin Chandra Pal) sat by my side. It was he who then came out of the seclusion to which God had sent him, so that in the silence and solitude of his cell he might hear the word that He had to say. It was he that you came in your hundreds to welcome. Now he is far away, separated from us by thousands of miles. Others whom I was accustomed to find working beside me are absent. The storm that swept over the country has scattered them far and wide. It is I this time who have spent one year in seclusion, and now that I come out I find all changed. One who always sat by my side and was associated in my work is a prisoner in Burma; another is in the north rotting in detention. I looked round when I came out, I looked round for those to Uttarpara Speech 3 whom I had been accustomed to look for counsel and inspiration. I did not find them. There was more than that. When I went to jail the whole country was alive with the cry of Bande Mataram, alive with the hope of a nation, the hope of millions of men who had newly risen out of degradation. When I came out of jail I listened for that cry, but there was instead a silence. A hush had fallen on the country and men seemed bewildered; for instead of God's bright heaven full of the vision of the future that had been before us, there seemed to be overhead a leaden sky from which human thunders and lightnings rained. No man seemed to know which way to move, and from all sides came the question, "What shall we do next? What is there that we can do?" I too Uttarpara Speech 4 did not know which way to move, I too did not know what was next to be done. But one thing I knew, that as it was the Almighty Power of God which had raised that cry, that hope, so it was the same Power which had sent down that silence. He who was in the shouting and the movement was also in the pause and the hush. He has sent it upon us, so that the nation might draw back for a moment and look into itself and know His will. I have not been disheartened by that silence because I had been made familiar with silence in my prison and because I knew it was in the pause and the hush that I had myself learned this lesson through the long year of my detention. When Bepin Chandra Pal came out of jail, he came with a message, and it was an inspired message. I remember the speech he Uttarpara Speech 5 made here. It was a speech not so much political as religious in its bearing and intention. He spoke of his realisation in jail, of God within us all, of the Lord within the nation, and in his subsequent speeches also he spoke of a greater than ordinary force in the movement and a greater than ordinary purpose before it. Now I also meet you again, I also come out of jail, and again it is you of Uttarpara who are the first to welcome me, not at a political meeting but at a meeting of a society for the protection of our religion. That message which Bepin Chandra Pal received in Buxar jail, God gave to me in Alipore. That knowledge He gave to me day after day during my twelve months of imprisonment and it is that which He has commanded me to speak to you now that I have come out. Uttarpara Speech 6 I knew I would come out. The year of detention was meant only for a year of seclusion and of training. How could anyone hold me in jail longer than was necessary for God's purpose? He had given me a word to speak and a work to do, and until that word was spoken I knew that no human power could hush me, until that work was done no human power could stop God's instrument, however weak that instrument might be or however small. Now that I have come out, even in these few minutes, a word has been suggested to me which I had no wish to speak. The thing I had in my mind He has thrown from it and what I speak is under an impulse and a compulsion. When I was arrested and hurried to the Lal Bazar hajat I was shaken in faith for Uttarpara Speech 7 a while, for I could not look into the heart of His intention. Therefore I faltered for a moment and cried out in my heart to Him, "What is this that has happened to me? I believed that I had a mission to work for the people of my country and until that work was done, I should have Thy protection. Why then am I here and on such a charge?" A day passed and a second day and a third, when a voice came to me from within, "Wait and see." Then I grew calm and waited, I was taken from Lal Bazar to Alipore and was placed for one month in a solitary cell apart from men. There I waited day and night for the voice of God within me, to know what He had to say to me, to learn what I had to do. In this seclusion the earliest realisation, the first lesson came to me. I remembered then that a month or Uttarpara Speech 8 more before my arrest, a call had come to me to put aside all activity, to go in seclusion and to look into myself, so that I might enter into closer communion with Him. I was weak and could not accept the call. My work was very dear to me and in the pride of my heart I thought that unless I was there, it would suffer or even fail and cease; therefore I would not leave it. It seemed to me that He spoke to me again and said, "The bonds you had not the strength to break, I have broken for you, because it is not my will nor was it ever my intention that that should continue. I have had another thing for you to do and it is for that I have brought you here, to teach you what you could not learn for yourself and to train you for my work." Then He placed the Gita in my hands. His strength Uttarpara Speech 9 entered into me and I was able to do the sadhana of the Gita. I was not only to understand intellectually but to realise what Sri Krishna demanded of Arjuna and what He demands of those who aspire to do His work, to be free from repulsion and desire, to do work for Him without the demand for fruit, to renounce self-will and become a passive and faithful instrument in His hands, to have an equal heart for high and low, friend and opponent, success and failure, yet not to do His work negligently. I realised what the Hindu religion meant. We speak often of the Hindu religion, of the Sanatana Dharma, but few of us really know what that religion is. Other religions are preponderatingly religions of faith and profession, but the Sanatana Dharma is life itself; it is a thing that has not so Uttarpara Speech 10 much to be believed as lived. This is the Dharma that for the salvation of humanity was cherished in the seclusion of this peninsula from of old. It is to give this religion that India is rising. She does not rise as other countries do, for self or when she is strong, to trample on the weak. She is rising to shed the eternal light entrusted to her over the world. India has always existed for humanity and not for herself and it is for humanity and not for herself that she must be great. Therefore this was the next thing He pointed out to me, - He made me realise the central truth of the Hindu religion. He turned the hearts of my jailors to me and they spoke to the Englishman in charge of the jail, "He is Uttarpara Speech 11 suffering in his confinement; let him at least walk outside his cell for half an hour in the morning and in the evening." So it was arranged, and it was while I was walking that His strength again entered into me. I looked the jail that secluded me from men and it was no longer by its high walls that I was imprisoned; no, it was Vasudeva who surrounded me. I walked under the branches of the tree in front of my cell but it was not the tree, I knew it was Vasudeva, it was Sri Krishna whom I saw standing there and holding over me his shade. I looked at the bars of my cell, the very grating that did duty for a door and again I saw Vasudeva. It was Narayana who was guarding and standing sentry over me. Or I lay on the coarse blankets that were given me for a couch and felt the arms of Sri Krishna Uttarpara Speech 12 around me, the arms of my Friend and Lover. This was the first use of the deeper vision He gave me. I looked at the prisoners in the jail, the thieves, the murderers, the swindlers, and as I looked at them I saw Vasudeva, it was Narayana whom I found in these darkened souls and misused bodies. Amongst these thieves and dacoits there were many who put me to shame by their sympathy, their kindness, the humanity triumphant over such adverse circumstances. One I saw among them especially, who seemed to me a saint, a peasant of my nation who did not know how to read and write, an alleged dacoit sentenced to ten years' rigorous imprisonment, one of those whom we look down upon in our Pharisaical pride of class as Chhotalok. Once more He spoke to me and said, Uttarpara Speech 13 "Behold the people among whom I have sent you to do a little of my work. This is the nature of the nation I am raising up and the reason why I raise them." When the case opened in the lower court and we were brought before the Magistrate I was followed by the same insight. He said to me, "When you were cast into jail, did not your heart fail and did you not cry out to me, where is Thy protection? Look now at the Magistrate, look now at the Prosecuting Counsel." I looked and it was not the Magistrate whom I saw, it was Vasudeva, it was Narayana who was sitting there on the bench. I looked at the Prosecuting Counsel and it was not the Counsel for the prosecution that I saw; it was Sri Krishna who sat Uttarpara Speech 14 there, it was my Lover and Friend who sat there and smiled. "Now do you fear?" He said, "I am in all men and I overrule their actions and their words. My protection is still with you and you shall not fear. This case which is brought against you, leave it in my hand. It is not for you. It was not for the trial that I brought you here but for something else. The case itself is only a means for my work and nothing more." Afterwards when the trial opened in the Sessions Court, I began to write many instructions for my Counsel as to what was false in the evidence against me and on what points the witnesses might be cross-examined. Then something happened which I had not expected. The arrangements which had been made for my defence were suddenly changed and another Counsel Uttarpara Speech 15 stood there to defend me. He came unexpectedly, - a friend of mine, but I did not know he was coming. You have all heard the name of the man who put away from him all other thoughts and abandoned all his practice, who sat up half the night day after day for months and broke his health to save me, - Srijut Chittaranjan Das. When I saw him, I was satisfied, but I still thought it necessary to write instructions. Then all that was put away from me and I had the message from within, "This is the man who will save you from the snares put around your feet. Put aside those papers. It is not you who will instruct him. I will instruct him." From that time I did not of myself speak a word to my Counsel about the case or give a single instruction, and if ever I was asked a question, I always found that my Uttarpara Speech 16 answer did not help the case. I had left it to him and he took it entirely into his hands, with what result you know. I knew all along what He meant for me, for I heard it again and again, always I listened to the voice within; "I am guiding, therefore fear not. Turn to your own work for which I have brought you to jail and when you come out, remember never to fear, never to hesitate. Remember that it is I who am doing this, not you nor any other. Therefore whatever clouds may come, whatever dangers and sufferings, whatever difficulties, whatever impossibilities, there is nothing impossible, nothing difficult. I am in the nation and its uprising and I am Vasudeva, I am Narayana, and what I will, shall be, not what others will. Uttarpara Speech 17 What I choose to bring about, no human power can stay." Meanwhile He had brought me out of solitude and placed me among those who had been accused along with me. You have spoken much today of my self-sacrifice and devotion to my country. I have heard that kind of speech ever since I came out of jail, but I hear it with embarrassment, with something of pain. For I know my weakness, I am a prey to my own faults and backslidings. I was not blind to them before and when they all rose up against me in seclusion, I felt them utterly. I knew them that I the man was a man of weakness, a faulty and imperfect instrument, strong only when a higher strength entered into me. Then I found myself among these Uttarpara Speech 18 young men and in many of them I discovered a mighty courage, a power of self-effacement in comparison with which I was simply nothing. I saw one or two who were not only superior to me in force and character, - very many were that, - but in the promise of that intellectual ability on which I prided myself. He said to me, "This is the young generation, the new and mighty nation that is arising at my command. They are greater than yourself. What have you to fear? If you stood aside or slept, the work would still be done. If you were cast aside tomorrow, here are the young men who will take up your work and do it more mightily than you have ever done. You have only got some strength from me to speak a word to this nation which will help to Uttarpara Speech 19 raise it." This was the next thing He told me. Then a thing happened suddenly and in a moment I was hurried away to the seclusion of a solitary cell. What happened to me during that period I am not impelled to say, but only that day after day, He showed me His wonders and made me realise the utter truth of the Hindu religion. I had many doubts before. I was brought up in England amongst foreign ideas and an atmosphere entirely foreign. About many things in Hinduism I had once been inclined to believe that they were imaginations, that there was much of dream in it, much that was delusion and Maya. But now day after day I realised in the mind, I realised in the heart, I realised in the body the truths Uttarpara Speech 20 of the Hindu religion. They became living experiences to me, and things were opened to me which no material science could explain. When I first approached Him, it was not entirely in the spirit of the Jnani. I came to Him long ago in Baroda some years before the Swadeshi began and I was drawn into the public field. When I approached God at that time, I hardly had a living faith in Him. The agnostic was in me, the atheist was in me, the sceptic was in me and I was not absolutely sure that there was a God at all. I did not feel His presence. Yet something drew me to the truth of the Vedas, the truth of the Gita, the truth of the Hindu religion. I felt there must be a mighty truth somewhere in this Yoga, a mighty truth in this religion Uttarpara Speech 21 based on the Vedanta. So when I turned to the Yoga and resolved to practise it and find out if my idea was right, I did it in this spirit and with this prayer to Him, "If Thou art, then Thou knowest my heart. Thou knowest that I do not ask for Mukti, I do not ask for anything which others ask for. I ask only for strength to uplift this nation, I ask only to be allowed to live and work for this people whom I love and to whom I pray that I may devote my life." I strove long for the realisation of Yoga and at last to some extent I had it, but in what I most desired I was not satisfied. Then in the seclusion of the jail, of the solitary cell I asked for it again. I said, "Give me Thy Adesh (command). I do not know what work to do or how to do it. Give me a message." In the communion of Yoga Uttarpara Speech 22 two messages came. The first message said, "I have given you a work and it is to help to uplift this nation. Before long the time will come when you will have to go out of jail; for it is not my will that this time either you should be convicted or that you should pass the time, as others have to do, in suffering for their country. I have called you to work, and that is the Adesh for which you have asked. I give you the Adesh to go forth and do my work." The second message came and it said, "Something has been shown to you in this year of seclusion, something about which you had your doubts and it is the truth of the Hindu religion. It is this religion that I am raising up before the world, it is this that I have perfected and developed through the Rishis, saints and Avatars, and now it is going forth Uttarpara Speech 23 to do my work among the nations. I am raising up this nation to send forth my word. This is the Sanatana Dharma, this is the eternal religion which you did not really know before, but which I have now revealed to you. The agnostic and the sceptic in you have been answered, for I have given you proofs within and without you, physical and subjective, which have satisfied you. When you go forth, speak to your nation always this word, that it is for the Sanatana Dharma that they arise, it is for the world and not for themselves that they arise. I am giving them freedom for the service of the world. When therefore it is said that India shall rise, it is the Sanatana Dharma that shall be great. When it is said that India shall expand and extend herself, it is the Sanatana Dharma that shall expand and extend Uttarpara Speech 24 itself over the world. It is for the Dharma and by the Dharma that India exists. To magnify the religion means to magnify the country. I have shown you that I am everywhere and in all men and in all things, that I am in this movement and I am not only working in those who are striving for the country but I am working also in those who oppose them and stand in their path. I am working in everybody and whatever men may think or do, they can do nothing but help in my purpose. They also are doing my work, they are not my enemies but my instruments. In all your actions you are moving forward without knowing which way you move. You mean to do one thing and you do another. You aim at a result and your efforts subserve one that is different or contrary. It is Shakti that has gone forth Uttarpara Speech 25 and entered into the people. Since long ago I have been preparing this uprising and now the time has come and it is I who will lead it to its fulfilment." This then is what I have to say to you. The name of your society is "Society for the Protection of Religion". Well, the protection of the religion, the protection and upraising before the world of the Hindu religion, that is the work before us. But what is the Hindu religion? What is this religion which we call Sanatana, eternal? It is the Hindu religion only because the Hindu nation has kept it, because in this Peninsula it grew up in the seclusion of the sea and the Himalayas, because in this sacred and ancient land it was given as a charge to the Aryan race to preserve through the ages. But it is not Uttarpara Speech 26 circumscribed by the confines of a single country, it does not belong peculiarly and for ever to a bounded part of the world. That which we call the Hindu religion is really the eternal religion, because it is the universal religion which embraces all others. If a religion is not universal, it cannot be eternal. A narrow religion, a sectarian religion, an exclusive religion can live only for a limited time and a limited purpose. This is the one religion that can triumph over materialism by including and anticipating the discoveries of science and the speculations of philosophy. It is the one religion which impresses on mankind the closeness of God to us and embraces in its compass all the possible means by which man can approach God. It is the one religion which insists Uttarpara Speech 27 every moment on the truth which all religions acknowledge that He is in all men and all things and that in Him we move and have our being. It is the one religion which enables us not only to understand and believe this truth but to realise it with every part of our being. It is the one religion which shows the world what the world is, that it is the Lila of Vasudeva. It is the one religion which shows us how we can best play our part in that Lila, its subtlest laws and its noblest rules. It is the one religion which does not separate life in any smallest detail from religion, which knows what immortality is and has utterly removed from us the reality of death. This is the word that has been put into my mouth to speak to you today. What Uttarpara Speech 28 I intended to speak has been put away from me, and beyond what is given to me I have nothing to say. It is only the word that is put into me that I can speak to you. That word is now finished. I spoke once before with this force in me and I said then that this movement is not a political movement and that nationalism is not politics but a religion, a creed, a faith. I say it again today, but I put it in another way. I say no longer that nationalism is a creed, a religion, a faith; I say that it is the Sanatana Dharma which for us is nationalism. This Hindu nation was born with the Sanatana Dharma, with it, it moves and with it, it grows. When the Sanatana Dharma declines, then the nation declines, and if the Sanatana Dharma were capable of perishing, Uttarpara Speech 29 with the Sanatana Dharma it would perish. The Sanatana Dharma that is nationalism. This is the message that I have to speak to you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted January 9, 2010 Finding the truth isn't as much fun as arguing. Even if, in the end, no one changes their mind. Â Â when asked about god buddha said..... Â the existence of god can not be proven nor disproven..... Â therefore to debate it is a waste of time.... Â however the existence of suffering can be proven quite easily..... Â because everyone suffers..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bindo Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) hahaha...nice try, but wrong again! You are clearly the one with the limited view of Sri Aurobindo. Â The Uttarpara speech was made in 1909. You realize he lived for another 41 years, right? This was towards the beginning of his sadhana. Â How about I contact you when you are in your 70's to see if you have changed your opinion on what you currently believe. Does that sound fair to you? Â I already mentioned that there was a time in his life when he identified himself as a Hindu, but even then it was more a cultural identification than a religious one. Â You mentioned his Hindu roots....At age five Aurobindo was sent to an Irish convent school and two years later was sent to England because his father didn't want him to know anything about Indian traditions and language. Â And while in England, at age seven, his caretakers were instructed to not allow Aurobindo and his brothers to " be allowed to make the acquaintance of any Indian or undergo any Indian influence". He was 20 before he returned to India and learned Bengali. Â Hindu roots? I think not. Â Keep trying, and eventually you'll do more than scratch the surface about this great man and his work. Edited January 9, 2010 by bindo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 9, 2010 hahaha...nice try, but wrong again! You are clearly the one with the limited view of Sri Aurobindo. Â The Uttarpara speech was made in 1909. You realize he lived for another 41 years, right? This was towards the beginning of his sadhana. Â How about I contact you when you are in your 70's to see if you have changed your opinion on what you currently believe. Does that sound fair to you? Â I already mentioned that there was a time in his life when he identified himself as a Hindu, but even then it was more a cultural identification than a religious one. Â You mentioned his Hindu roots....At age five Aurobindo was sent to an Irish convent school and two years later was sent to England because his father didn't want him to know anything about Indian traditions and language. Â And while in England, at age seven, his caretakers were instructed to not allow Aurobindo and his brothers to " be allowed to make the acquaintance of any Indian or undergo any Indian influence". He was 20 before he returned to India and learned Bengali. Â Hindu roots? I think not. Â Keep trying, and eventually you'll do more than scratch the surface about this great man and his work. Â what you are parroting is an oft repeated party-line used by people who try and appropriate important discoveries and personalities from India. Nothing surprising... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non Posted January 9, 2010 i DUNNO.. Â I dont know about buddhism but I thought one of it's main teachings is to dissociate from the illusory reality. To stop identification with it, and the ego, to at least gain some objectivity over the suffering, and 'detatchment'. Â Does it stop there? I dont know. Perhaps when one has maximally detatched one reaches Nirvana. That could simply mean death, but the Ultimate death whereby there is no more karma being made, not even reincarnation. It is just, "emptiness". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdweir Posted January 10, 2010 This author has a few misconceptions about Buddhism I think. Buddhism is not about God revealed Dogma, for instance, or world negating Nihilism. World transcending, sure. Buddha and Lao Tzu were not so much ahead o their time as unbounded by it. I think Wilkinson is suffering from trying to stuff Eastern concepts into western modfels. He is repeating the old misconceptions of Buddhism articulated by Hegel, Nietzsche, and others. Â Also, if you want to talk about Dogma and Belief, what about The Western Scientific worldview? Of course Buddhism and Christianity, when narrowly and dogmatically debased, can be moribund relics of corrupted traditions, but Empirical Science and Skepticism have their high and low forms as well, which can be just as life negating as misapprehended spirituality. I think Wilkinson actually suffers from applying his critique too narrowly and in immoderately broad categories. Â If you want to salvage something from the article, maybe one could walk away with it's central point, that it is not good to place old teachings above the present, and this is ok with me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sunya Posted January 11, 2010 Not sure what exactly you meant here, but it's said that samsara doesn't have a begining but it does have an end. Â well, there is no time in Buddhism.. that's what I meant. there's no beginning or end. Norbu Rinpoche refers to samsara as infinite.. but I have heard the argument that samsara will end. This doesn't make sense to me though because what then will all the Buddhas do since their activity is compassion, what then if there are no longer suffering beings? dunno. I think the argument that samsara will end depends on a finite number of beings, but if there are infinite beings then samsara will not end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites