Wang Liping on sitting (in lotus posture)

[YMWong]

As the subject seems to be of interest, this is from one of WLP's lectures from the late 80ies.

Maybe somebody with more free time than myself can start translating it

 

 

This other is mainly for Ken, from another lecture by WLP on 1985, where he states that "crossed leg is Earth, half lotus is Man, full lotus is Heaven".

 

Best

 

YM

 

Edited January 10, 2010 by YMWong

[mouse]

YMWong,

 

You pretty much summed it up.

 

What does he mean when he talks about noting hand changes? Does he mean hand mudras?

 

mouse

[YMWong]

What does he mean when he talks about noting hand changes? Does he mean hand mudras?

 

I am not in Wang's lineage so I cannot voice for his school, maybe Ken can give his opinions here.

 

In any case, when you are sitting most of the body is still but in most neigong practices one moves the arms and/or the hands. So this should refers to changes/movements of both the arms (gestures) and/or the hands (mudra).

 

YM

[kathyli]

Please check information at another thread here

 

I am not in Wang's lineage so I cannot voice for his school, maybe Ken can give his opinions here.

 

In any case, when you are sitting most of the body is still but in most neigong practices one moves the arms and/or the hands. So this should refers to changes/movements of both the arms (gestures) and/or the hands (mudra).

 

YM

[david2885]

Hmm, interesting, what is the title of the book this is from?

[Peterminator]

Sorry for my subtle offtop; can someone recommend some stretching program to get closer to full lotus? I know that some people are made the way they will never be able to perform such posture no matter what but still they can get closer to some point. In my case, i'm trying to stretch for like 4 years, i cant perform half lotus, im sitting in crossed legs everyday for 6 months and i dont see any progress. When im trying to stretch to kick higher or to stretch to feel more comfortable in sitting meditation postures - all i got are injuries and idk wtf. All the doctors had to say was "take 2 months rest from any training" bulllllllsh*t It's like it is my destiny to be unstretched.

[joeblast]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=4549

 

[Peterminator]

Thank you

[joeblast]

np...try a forum search, there should be more!

[joeblast]

np...try a forum search, there should be more!

[Ken]

 

This other is mainly for Ken, from another lecture by WLP on 1985, where he states that "crossed leg is Earth, half lotus is Man, full lotus is Heaven".

 

Best

 

YM

 

 

Thanks YMWong, can you tell me which book did you extract this from? It's clear that "crossed leg is Earth, half lotus is Man, full lotus is Heaven" is mentioned in the text. However, I want to make sure this is a legit source because I have seen at least one person who ripped off Master Wang's teaching and published it as their own system (yeah, for real)....

[niko (wind) hatzakis]

This is a spoofed ID and not the real Nik Hatzakis

This member has been banned

-Mod Squad-

 

Ken playing secretive games again i see ) Why dont You just come out and tell us who the guy is or where you seen him ?

 

That way everybody on the forum can be aware of this fraudster. Dont you think that would be a better solution ?

 

^the above is rather Ironic

Edited February 23, 2010 by Mal
False ID

[voidisyinyang]

Oh Niko -- maybe you want to read the biography of Wang, Liping -- it's called "Opening the Dragon Gate." Of course some think it's fake but actually I took classes from a teacher who had very similar training and experiences.

 

Ken playing secretive games again i see ) Why dont You just come out and tell us who the guy is or where you seen him ?

 

That way everybody on the forum can be aware of this fraudster. Dont you think that would be a better solution ?

[Reader]

Oh Niko -- maybe you want to read the biography of Wang, Liping -- it's called "Opening the Dragon Gate." Of course some think it's fake but actually I took classes from a teacher who had very similar training and experiences.

 

drewhempel, I don't think Niko meant Master Wang.

 

Read the previous post by Ken where he stated that "However, I want to make sure this is a legit source because I have seen at least one person who ripped off Master Wang's teaching and published it as their own system (yeah, for real)....

[YMWong]

Thanks YMWong, can you tell me which book did you extract this from? It's clear that "crossed leg is Earth, half lotus is Man, full lotus is Heaven" is mentioned in the text. However, I want to make sure this is a legit source because I have seen at least one person who ripped off Master Wang's teaching and published it as their own system (yeah, for real)....

 

Ken, as you know the group put to print 'proceedings' of most seminars and lectures for 'internal use', this is one of those brochures.

 

I am travelling right now but I will scan cover and details for you when I get back.

 

YM

[Capital]

My simple advice is to forget your knees and ankles when trying for lotus. You are trying to learn to "open up" and freely turn the ball-and-socket joint that connects your pelvis to your thigh bone, nothing else; your knee and ankle should stay as relaxed and natural as possible, for the pull on them will come without any effort from you. Just turn the thigh round, rotate your legs into place- keeping them relaxed as if going into a simple cross-legged stance, and you'll get Full Lotus.

[gendao]

Thanks YMWong, can you tell me which book did you extract this from? It's clear that "crossed leg is Earth, half lotus is Man, full lotus is Heaven" is mentioned in the text. However, I want to make sure this is a legit source because I have seen at least one person who ripped off Master Wang's teaching and published it as their own system (yeah, for real)....

I think you can ask Kathy Li - I believe she also mentioned the same thing in her workshop.

 

Capital - agreed. The key here is to open your kua...not strain your knees.

Edited January 14, 2010 by vortex

[Ken]

Ken, as you know the group put to print 'proceedings' of most seminars and lectures for 'internal use', this is one of those brochures.

 

I am travelling right now but I will scan cover and details for you when I get back.

 

 

 

Hi YMWong, it's ok, it's really no big deal, I believe you. It's just a new way (to me) to name these postures.

[Mark Foote]

Sorry for my subtle offtop; can someone recommend some stretching program to get closer to full lotus? I know that some people are made the way they will never be able to perform such posture no matter what but still they can get closer to some point. In my case, i'm trying to stretch for like 4 years, i cant perform half lotus, im sitting in crossed legs everyday for 6 months and i dont see any progress. When im trying to stretch to kick higher or to stretch to feel more comfortable in sitting meditation postures - all i got are injuries and idk wtf. All the doctors had to say was "take 2 months rest from any training" bulllllllsh*t It's like it is my destiny to be unstretched.

If you want a different approach, check my website:

 

www.zenmudra.com

 

I thought my experience would translate into progress at the lotus, but after a lot of years, I decided I would have to figure it out, instead. So here's the story: as Carl Bielefeldt translated a master's words in the first edition of Dogen's Meditation Manuals, "seated meditation is not holding still". The fascia and ligaments of the body can generate muscular activity, involuntarily, if they are stretched sufficiently. Since the muscles and fascia are basically in pairs, the action of posture is fundamentally the reciprocal innervation of muscular tissue as the stretch of fascia alternates from side to side. The basic stretches you are interested in for the lotus are the stretches of the fascia that connects the sacrum to the pelvis; the sacrum moves, forward and backward, side to side, and around with the changes in volume of the fluid in the dural sac, surrounding the brain and the spinal cord all the way down to the sacrum. The fascia that connect the sacrum to the sit bones stretches, and generates activity side to side; the fascia that connects the sacrum to the forward undersides of the pelvis generates swivel activity left and right; and the fascia that connects the sacrum to the wings of the pelvis stretches and generates motion forward and back. Watch the motion of the sacrum, relax and look for feeling as the location of the occurrence of consciousness leads the motion of the body, in the legs and throughout the body. The presence of feeling is the correct alignment of the spine, and you will have to open a bit to pleasant and unpleasant feelings with the occurrence of consciousness in order to realize the stretch that generates the activity of the lotus.

Thanks.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Mark Foote

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah I was just reading through your instruction guide. When I go into full-lotus at first there's a lot of cracking and movement at the blockages clear out. Then the central channel opens up and I see light in my brain and the movement is less and less. But when I first trained to get into full-lotus I relied on the SMALL UNIVERSE excerise -- the Level 1 Sitting Meditation c.d.

 

http://www.springforestqigong.com/instructional_tools.htm

 

Anyway the idea being the creation of the electromagnetic fields through the alchemy -- you just sit in a chair and it's a combination of mind yoga with body transformation. And then when the electromagnetic fields are strong enough the flexibility follows the electromagnetic fields.

 

If you want a different approach, check my website:

 

www.zenmudra.com

 

I thought my experience would translate into progress at the lotus, but after a lot of years, I decided I would have to figure it out, instead. So here's the story: as Carl Bielefeldt translated a master's words in the first edition of Dogen's Meditation Manuals, "seated meditation is not holding still". The fascia and ligaments of the body can generate muscular activity, involuntarily, if they are stretched sufficiently. Since the muscles and fascia are basically in pairs, the action of posture is fundamentally the reciprocal innervation of muscular tissue as the stretch of fascia alternates from side to side. The basic stretches you are interested in for the lotus are the stretches of the fascia that connects the sacrum to the pelvis; the sacrum moves, forward and backward, side to side, and around with the changes in volume of the fluid in the dural sac, surrounding the brain and the spinal cord all the way down to the sacrum. The fascia that connect the sacrum to the sit bones stretches, and generates activity side to side; the fascia that connects the sacrum to the forward undersides of the pelvis generates swivel activity left and right; and the fascia that connects the sacrum to the wings of the pelvis stretches and generates motion forward and back. Watch the motion of the sacrum, relax and look for feeling as the location of the occurrence of consciousness leads the motion of the body, in the legs and throughout the body. The presence of feeling is the correct alignment of the spine, and you will have to open a bit to pleasant and unpleasant feelings with the occurrence of consciousness in order to realize the stretch that generates the activity of the lotus.

Thanks.

[gendao]

Sorry for my subtle offtop; can someone recommend some stretching program to get closer to full lotus? I know that some people are made the way they will never be able to perform such posture no matter what but still they can get closer to some point. In my case, i'm trying to stretch for like 4 years, i cant perform half lotus, im sitting in crossed legs everyday for 6 months and i dont see any progress. When im trying to stretch to kick higher or to stretch to feel more comfortable in sitting meditation postures - all i got are injuries and idk wtf. All the doctors had to say was "take 2 months rest from any training" bulllllllsh*t It's like it is my destiny to be unstretched.

How and what are you stretching?

 

The key is to do the RIGHT stretch. For full-lotus, that is primarily the "T-STRETCH."

 

The lower core can be very tight and difficult to open (especially as you get older), so be patient. These are some very strong ligaments here. But if you do this stretch daily, you will make slow, but sure progress over time. Certainly, you should see noticeable progress over 6 months, though.

[Ken]

 

 

The key is to do the RIGHT stretch. For full-lotus, that is primarily the "T-STRETCH."

 

The lower core can be very tight and difficult to open (especially as you get older), so be patient. These are some very strong ligaments here. But if you do this stretch daily, you will make slow, but sure progress over time. Certainly, you should see noticeable progress over 6 months, though.

 

Uuggg...the way you suggested to stretch is the surest way to tear up some ligament (pulling the feet backward in wide angle forward bend? wtf?). Wide angle forward bend (WAFB) is a good stretch but it's not everything to do a full lotus. I believe this video is where you get the idea from:

 

 

notice the dude can do full lotus but his posture is somewhat terrible, his left knee is like 20 feet up in the air. A proper padmasana posture should have both knees touching the ground. I believe WAFB can get you into the basic posture but doing it alone will not give you a proper padmasana posture, you need an inclined inward rotation in the ball and socket joint as well (which you won't get from doing WAFB).

 

Also talk is cheap, here is a picture of my full lotus to show that I kind of know what i am talking about:

 

(hmmm..can't attach pic, don't know why)

Edited January 20, 2010 by Ken

[Mark Foote]

How and what are you stretching?

 

The key is to do the RIGHT stretch. For full-lotus, that is primarily the "T-STRETCH."

 

The lower core can be very tight and difficult to open (especially as you get older), so be patient. These are some very strong ligaments here. But if you do this stretch daily, you will make slow, but sure progress over time. Certainly, you should see noticeable progress over 6 months, though.

 

Vewwy Intawestin', that T-STRETCH post and thread. I do stretch my hamstrings. Sat 50 minutes this morning, no numbness; this is the year my theory meets my practice, evidently- it's been a long time coming. The real stretching is involuntary, I think, occasioned by activity which is set in motion by the stretching itself. The trick for me is to recognize the motion at the sacrum, and at the hips, and in the muscles under the pelvis from the inside of the pelvis to the hips and the sacrum. There are bursa to allow the obturators to slide under the sciatic notch, and to allow the psoas to slide over the pubic bone. The obturators will "hammock" the pelvis off the hips slightly, as Blandine-Calais points out in "Anatomy of Movement" (an anatomy book for dancers). The piriformis will rotate the sacrum opposite the rotation of the pelvis initiated by the sartorius, which then sends the activity up the extensors in three sets to move the parietals (the bones on either side of the crown of the head), largely because the fascia behind the sacrum restricts the expansion of the extensors there (and forces the sacrum to move). The sacrum won't rotate unless the lower vertebrae of the spine find support in the two sets of ilio-lumbar ligaments, alternately with the breath in and out.

 

Drew, sounds like you are truly an adept with this stuff; I like the flow of your description. If anybody wants a little more organized version of my anatomy above, in the context of a description of how the pulmonary and cranial-sacral respirations use the place of occurrence of consciousness to open feeling in the body, see the "the mudra of zen" at www.zenmudra.com (and also see the essays at the bottom of that page). I think our struggle is to find accurate and understandable ways to share the basis of the practice based on tenacious strength (standing or sitting), and I appreciate Tao Bums very much as an avenue for us all to express ourselves and move toward the integration of East and West.

[voidisyinyang]

Thanks Mark Foote -- actually my angle on the East West deal is one of extreme opposites as dialectical inversion -- my blog http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com gives more details.

 

Vewwy Intawestin', that T-STRETCH post and thread. I do stretch my hamstrings. Sat 50 minutes this morning, no numbness; this is the year my theory meets my practice, evidently- it's been a long time coming. The real stretching is involuntary, I think, occasioned by activity which is set in motion by the stretching itself. The trick for me is to recognize the motion at the sacrum, and at the hips, and in the muscles under the pelvis from the inside of the pelvis to the hips and the sacrum. There are bursa to allow the obturators to slide under the sciatic notch, and to allow the psoas to slide over the pubic bone. The obturators will "hammock" the pelvis off the hips slightly, as Blandine-Calais points out in "Anatomy of Movement" (an anatomy book for dancers). The piriformis will rotate the sacrum opposite the rotation of the pelvis initiated by the sartorius, which then sends the activity up the extensors in three sets to move the parietals (the bones on either side of the crown of the head), largely because the fascia behind the sacrum restricts the expansion of the extensors there (and forces the sacrum to move). The sacrum won't rotate unless the lower vertebrae of the spine find support in the two sets of ilio-lumbar ligaments, alternately with the breath in and out.

 

Drew, sounds like you are truly an adept with this stuff; I like the flow of your description. If anybody wants a little more organized version of my anatomy above, in the context of a description of how the pulmonary and cranial-sacral respirations use the place of occurrence of consciousness to open feeling in the body, see the "the mudra of zen" at www.zenmudra.com (and also see the essays at the bottom of that page). I think our struggle is to find accurate and understandable ways to share the basis of the practice based on tenacious strength (standing or sitting), and I appreciate Tao Bums very much as an avenue for us all to express ourselves and move toward the integration of East and West.

[宁]

I've tried alot of methods, for me this is what worked:

 

- just did a sloppy lotus with the feet barely crossing at the ankles.

- kept doing it for a while, then tried to move the feet up the thighs, slowly.

- used retention and celibacy, flexibility is often corelated with a good hormonal level

- the tendons need jing to grow, otherwise they snap, or stretch like an over-used rubber band, no power.

 

If you cannot do even some symbolic form of lotus, try half lotus first, gradually moving the foot up the thigh, changing it from the right side to the left side, on each consecutive meditation session.

In time, you can build enough elasticity to try a whimpy lotus, and then take it gradually from there, as shown above.

 

For the ones that are working to stabilize the lotus, you can use some cushion under the ankles, just enough to lift them a bit.

It's a trick that can help alot.

It's used just temporary, you can stop using it as your elasticity grows in time.