Wang Liping on sitting (in lotus posture)

[r.w.smith]

Hi Guys,

 

I think its soooooo very important to prepare the Physical Body first - By Sitting for long periods without any discomfort whatsoever for example.

 

If you really want to progress, Then ideally Lotus should (must) be performed while doing normal everyday activites, Watching Tv,Reading,etc (not just meditation). Learn to sit in perfect stillness for at least one hour before even attempting to meditate,That way your mind can truly focus on the task at hand.

 

So next time guys, dont sit at that table,Dont lay on that lounge lol, learn to love the lotus and make it your second nature.

 

 

 

Thanks,

Edited January 20, 2010 by r.w.smith

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah I've got about 4 hours of full-lotus in today but I took breaks for the whole drinking fluids and taking piss and household chores like dishes and laundry and some reading but still 4 hours of full-lotus so far. Usually I don't keep track.

 

Hi Guys,

 

I think its soooooo very important to prepare the Physical Body first - By Sitting for long periods without any discomfort whatsoever for example.

 

If you really want to progress, Then ideally Lotus should (must) be performed while doing normal everyday activites, Watching Tv,Reading,etc (not just meditation). Learn to sit in perfect stillness for at least one hour before even attempting to meditate,That way your mind can truly focus on the task at hand.

 

So next time guys, dont sit at that table,Dont lay on that lounge lol, learn to love the lotus and make it your second nature.

 

 

 

Thanks,

[Aria]

I started to sit in full lotus at the start of the month and it does feel different. I was able to hold it for 10 minutes and then I would switch my legs around and do another 10min. Now I am able to go up to 20min. I can only do this while meditating though, if I just sat full lotus I could only go 10min right now. While meditating in full lotus in 10min I start to feel my third eye vibrate. Don't know whats up with that but it seems like a good thing. Anyone know?

[voidisyinyang]

I think you mean the center of your forehead? If so that's excellent -- I remember when that first happened to me -- I had attended this Tibetan lama lecture. I was in this crowded small room on the floor and I was listening with so much concentration because what he said was really fascinating in terms of logic and philosophy. I got home and thought I had a head ache but then realized it was exactly just in the center of my forehead and this weird buzzing sensation. The third eye is actually in the center of the brain -- the pineal gland. Now I can feel that as well.

 

I started to sit in full lotus at the start of the month and it does feel different. I was able to hold it for 10 minutes and then I would switch my legs around and do another 10min. Now I am able to go up to 20min. I can only do this while meditating though, if I just sat full lotus I could only go 10min right now. While meditating in full lotus in 10min I start to feel my third eye vibrate. Don't know whats up with that but it seems like a good thing. Anyone know?

[r.w.smith]

4 Hours Drew your a madman lol

 

Aria try this, Next time cross your legs for about 2 minutes. Then uncross them & start over in lotus again. You will find you can always go much further the second or third time around.

 

Another, If your practice static postures etc Your leg muscles will be much more tense / tight after this type of traning. Its usually best to wait a few hours for the leg muscles to fully relax and return to normal their normal state.

[Aria]

I think you mean the center of your forehead? If so that's excellent -- I remember when that first happened to me -- I had attended this Tibetan lama lecture. I was in this crowded small room on the floor and I was listening with so much concentration because what he said was really fascinating in terms of logic and philosophy. I got home and thought I had a head ache but then realized it was exactly just in the center of my forehead and this weird buzzing sensation. The third eye is actually in the center of the brain -- the pineal gland. Now I can feel that as well.

Makes sense, but why was it vibrating? How do you feel your pineal gland?

 

4 Hours Drew your a madman lol

 

Aria try this, Next time cross your legs for about 2 minutes. Then uncross them & start over in lotus again. You will find you can always go much further the second or third time around.

 

Another, If your practice static postures etc Your leg muscles will be much more tense / tight after this type of traning. Its usually best to wait a few hours for the leg muscles to fully relax and return to normal their normal state.

Thanks I decided I should try sitting full lotus or half full lotus at work. My coworkers looked at me like I was strange lol but I've been here long enough that they don't question my oddities.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Aria

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah the chakras are opening up. The "small universe" practice is the foundation to open up the chakras along the outside of the body. The pineal gland opens up when the central channel starts opening up as well.

 

Makes sense, but why was it vibrating? How do you feel your pineal gland?

 

 

Thanks I decided I should try sitting full lotus or half full lotus at work. My coworkers looked at me like I was strange lol but I've been here long enough that they don't question my oddities.

[Mark Foote]

Yeah the chakras are opening up. The "small universe" practice is the foundation to open up the chakras along the outside of the body. The pineal gland opens up when the central channel starts opening up as well.

 

Pineal is on the sphenoid, which moves with the occiput in the cranial-sacral rhythm (that's part of cranial-sacral osteopathic theory). The Gotamid's practice for developing psychic powers was four-fold: before as behind & behind as before, above as below and below as above, by night as by day and by day as by night (sign of the meditation), sharpen the wits to brilliance and cultivate an awareness of daylight. As I said in the guide below under "the gotamid offers a practice", I don't have any experience with miracles or psychic powers, yet I can appreciate that there is likely a way to that, and I think it has to do with feedback between motion at the sacrum out of the cranial-sacral rhythm and the generation of the cranial-sacral rhythm by nerves at the sagittal suture. Maybe it's all about a rhythm that innervates the pineal through the movement of the sphenoid?

 

I did what Little1 described, too, working into the lotus over a lot of years. Also true that if you can put your legs up, take them down, and go again it's easier. I find that rocking side to side is useful to me getting in and out of the lotus. There is no substitute that I found for recognizing stretch and the activity out of stretch, especially in the three sets of ligaments between the pelvis and sacrum and in the ligaments between the lower back and pelvis; also no substitute for letting go of the location of mind, and feeling what's there to feel.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Mark Foote

[gendao]

Uuggg...the way you suggested to stretch is the surest way to tear up some ligament (pulling the feet backward in wide angle forward bend? wtf?). Wide angle forward bend (WAFB) is a good stretch but it's not everything to do a full lotus. I believe this video is where you get the idea from:

 

 

notice the dude can do full lotus but his posture is somewhat terrible, his left knee is like 20 feet up in the air. A proper padmasana posture should have both knees touching the ground. I believe WAFB can get you into the basic posture but doing it alone will not give you a proper padmasana posture, you need an inclined inward rotation in the ball and socket joint as well (which you won't get from doing WAFB).

 

Also talk is cheap, here is a picture of my full lotus to show that I kind of know what i am talking about:

 

(hmmm..can't attach pic, don't know why)

Well, showing the feet turned backwards like that is just to show how you should be trying to rotate your legs in your hips...but in practice only a contortionist would be able to actually rotate them back that far. More likely, most people will still just have their feet pointing up towards the ceiling.

 

And yes, I did get it from that video - so why do you think it is so risky? And what stretches would you then recommend to get into lotus? What exactly do you mean by an "inclined inward rotation in the ball and socket joint?"

 

You can also upload pictures on ImageShack and then link them here too. For example, like this:

[voidisyinyang]

So you can feel your pineal gland?

 

Pineal is on the sphenoid, which moves with the occiput in the cranial-sacral rhythm (that's part of cranial-sacral osteopathic theory). The Gotamid's practice for developing psychic powers was four-fold: before as behind & behind as before, above as below and below as above, by night as by day and by day as by night (sign of the meditation), sharpen the wits to brilliance and cultivate an awareness of daylight. As I said in the guide below under "the gotamid offers a practice", I don't have any experience with miracles or psychic powers, yet I can appreciate that there is likely a way to that, and I think it has to do with feedback between motion at the sacrum out of the cranial-sacral rhythm and the generation of the cranial-sacral rhythm by nerves at the sagittal suture. Maybe it's all about a rhythm that innervates the pineal through the movement of the sphenoid?

 

I did what Little1 described, too, working into the lotus over a lot of years. Also true that if you can put your legs up, take them down, and go again it's easier. I find that rocking side to side is useful to me getting in and out of the lotus. There is no substitute that I found for recognizing stretch and the activity out of stretch, especially in the three sets of ligaments between the pelvis and sacrum and in the ligaments between the lower back and pelvis; also no substitute for letting go of the location of mind, and feeling what's there to feel.

[Gerard]

Don't get too carried away with physical posture.

 

The Buddha didn't meditate using full lotus. He recommended something better: Vipassana.

 

What it counts is the amount of time you spend meditating and not how skilled you are performing a physical trick.

 

2 hours of full lotus is nothing compared to 18 hours of walking and sitting meditation straight during a 2 month retreat.

[witch]

If you want a different approach, check my website:

 

www.zenmudra.com

 

I thought my experience would translate into progress at the lotus, but after a lot of years, I decided I would have to figure it out, instead. So here's the story: as Carl Bielefeldt translated a master's words in the first edition of Dogen's Meditation Manuals, "seated meditation is not holding still". The fascia and ligaments of the body can generate muscular activity, involuntarily, if they are stretched sufficiently. Since the muscles and fascia are basically in pairs, the action of posture is fundamentally the reciprocal innervation of muscular tissue as the stretch of fascia alternates from side to side. The basic stretches you are interested in for the lotus are the stretches of the fascia that connects the sacrum to the pelvis; the sacrum moves, forward and backward, side to side, and around with the changes in volume of the fluid in the dural sac, surrounding the brain and the spinal cord all the way down to the sacrum. The fascia that connect the sacrum to the sit bones stretches, and generates activity side to side; the fascia that connects the sacrum to the forward undersides of the pelvis generates swivel activity left and right; and the fascia that connects the sacrum to the wings of the pelvis stretches and generates motion forward and back. Watch the motion of the sacrum, relax and look for feeling as the location of the occurrence of consciousness leads the motion of the body, in the legs and throughout the body. The presence of feeling is the correct alignment of the spine, and you will have to open a bit to pleasant and unpleasant feelings with the occurrence of consciousness in order to realize the stretch that generates the activity of the lotus.

Thanks.

 

Oh. My. God. It just dawned on my I'm doing this, I'm doing what Drew is doing, except women don't have to be in full lotus to do it.

[Mark Foote]

So you can feel your pineal gland?

 

No, can't say that I can feel the gland, or even the movement of the sphenoid, particularly. I have had a clicking like knuckle clicking around the occiput, which seems to be receding as I develop more feeling for the action out of the sacro-iliac joints as the sacrum pivots forward and back. Can't really develop feeling for that without feeling for the side-to-side at the hips, and the angle motion from the stretch of the sacro-tuberous ligaments, but as I look for that feeling of walking in the legs and walking over the bridge, as Fuxi described it, I come back to the bounce off the stretch of the ilio-sacral ligaments. No clicking, now. I am so focused on developing that jing, so to speak, and its translation into a center that informs the length of a breath in or out, that I only check the mind to overcome my anxiety over a precarious balance, and accept the sensation of stretch that is close to pain that results in activity. Now and again I notice that I am drawn out, and my thoughts are like some kind of secretion, as Uchiyama described it; the rhythm in my body builds up, the stretch enfolds me, I think for awhile. I love one of the Gautamid's sermons where he talks about two ways of setting up mindfulness, and the second one was just to think some pleasant thought, after which one finds mindfulness is already set up.

 

I admire your ability to feel the third eye, and I believe you said something about the perception of light or daylight; awesome stuff, maybe if I get ready and my finances permit, I'll try a sesshin and see what happens when I'm really strung out. For the most part, my focus that way is on suffering, and why knowing, seeing as it really is sense organ, sense object, consciousness out of contact, impact (in the stretch already in existence), and feeling (out of impact) was said by the Gautamid to develop and bring to fruition all the elements in his teaching. Not that I can do anything about anything. yers Mark

[voidisyinyang]

Right. Well I always recommend the Level 1 Sitting meditation c.d. from http://springforestqigong.com just scroll down on instructional tools -- it's $11 plus shipping. That has the 1/2 hour small universe practice which is the foundation practice to open up the third eye. Then there's the Self Concentration meditation which is really zen meditation essentially -- but the first small universe you do just sitting in a chair and the self-concentration you do in half lotus or full lotus -- it's a bit over a 1/2 hour. I remember when it was difficult for me to stay in full-lotus till the very end of self-concentration. Now I don't keep track -- what the other day was probably 6 hours of full-lotus -- but I was taking breaks every half hour or so just to go do something quick -- get a drink, take a piss, etc. haha. But once the third eye is open then as long as you have a good supply of jing energy coming into the lower chakras you can keep transmitting the chi-shen energy out of the pineal gland and it's transduced through the piezoelectric pressure. But if you are relying on food which is an impure jing source -- along with semen -- then there's going to be a lot of off gassing of toxins and shit -- leached out the gums, etc. So I've been eating at night since I have to eat my mom's dinner. Then I spend the day clearing out the toxins using vinegar and lemon juice. So after dinner I'll have a second smaller meal as well and meanwhile I have to wait for digestion usually -- at least a half hour minimum. Then I go back into full-lotus around midnight for another hour before sleep and if I wake up in the night I go back into full-lotus. That way I can keep doing healing on my parents. It's been working pretty good -- the full-lotus is my mainstay.

 

No, can't say that I can feel the gland, or even the movement of the sphenoid, particularly. I have had a clicking like knuckle clicking around the occiput, which seems to be receding as I develop more feeling for the action out of the sacro-iliac joints as the sacrum pivots forward and back. Can't really develop feeling for that without feeling for the side-to-side at the hips, and the angle motion from the stretch of the sacro-tuberous ligaments, but as I look for that feeling of walking in the legs and walking over the bridge, as Fuxi described it, I come back to the bounce off the stretch of the ilio-sacral ligaments. No clicking, now. I am so focused on developing that jing, so to speak, and its translation into a center that informs the length of a breath in or out, that I only check the mind to overcome my anxiety over a precarious balance, and accept the sensation of stretch that is close to pain that results in activity. Now and again I notice that I am drawn out, and my thoughts are like some kind of secretion, as Uchiyama described it; the rhythm in my body builds up, the stretch enfolds me, I think for awhile. I love one of the Gautamid's sermons where he talks about two ways of setting up mindfulness, and the second one was just to think some pleasant thought, after which one finds mindfulness is already set up.

 

I admire your ability to feel the third eye, and I believe you said something about the perception of light or daylight; awesome stuff, maybe if I get ready and my finances permit, I'll try a sesshin and see what happens when I'm really strung out. For the most part, my focus that way is on suffering, and why knowing, seeing as it really is sense organ, sense object, consciousness out of contact, impact (in the stretch already in existence), and feeling (out of impact) was said by the Gautamid to develop and bring to fruition all the elements in his teaching. Not that I can do anything about anything. yers Mark

[Mark Foote]

Right. Well I always recommend the Level 1 Sitting meditation c.d. from http://springforestqigong.com just scroll down on instructional tools -- it's $11 plus shipping. That has the 1/2 hour small universe practice which is the foundation practice to open up the third eye. Then there's the Self Concentration meditation which is really zen meditation essentially -- but the first small universe you do just sitting in a chair and the self-concentration you do in half lotus or full lotus -- it's a bit over a 1/2 hour. I remember when it was difficult for me to stay in full-lotus till the very end of self-concentration. Now I don't keep track -- what the other day was probably 6 hours of full-lotus -- but I was taking breaks every half hour or so just to go do something quick -- get a drink, take a piss, etc. haha. But once the third eye is open then as long as you have a good supply of jing energy coming into the lower chakras you can keep transmitting the chi-shen energy out of the pineal gland and it's transduced through the piezoelectric pressure. But if you are relying on food which is an impure jing source -- along with semen -- then there's going to be a lot of off gassing of toxins and shit -- leached out the gums, etc. So I've been eating at night since I have to eat my mom's dinner. Then I spend the day clearing out the toxins using vinegar and lemon juice. So after dinner I'll have a second smaller meal as well and meanwhile I have to wait for digestion usually -- at least a half hour minimum. Then I go back into full-lotus around midnight for another hour before sleep and if I wake up in the night I go back into full-lotus. That way I can keep doing healing on my parents. It's been working pretty good -- the full-lotus is my mainstay.

 

Do you dance- just curious. I've tried to learn to play rock on an acoustic guitar, and I think I have a tune or two now; I guess I learned to do that by dancing to live bands in small clubs in S.F. long ago. Seems like as the posture comes along, so does the beat.

 

Hope your parents get well, if they are ill. Wonder what witch meant when she said she is doing what you are doing, raising energies through the spine to the third eye?

[Mark Foote]

Don't get too carried away with physical posture.

 

The Buddha didn't meditate using full lotus. He recommended something better: Vipassana.

 

What it counts is the amount of time you spend meditating and not how skilled you are performing a physical trick.

 

2 hours of full lotus is nothing compared to 18 hours of walking and sitting meditation straight during a 2 month retreat.

 

I agree that the object is not to hold an excruciating posture beyond the limits of endurance. My understanding is that the Gautamid walked as much as he sat, originally; he would walk between villages, about 20 miles usually, almost on a daily basis. I think I got that from one of Rhys David's books, not sure.

 

In the Pali Suttas, the setting up of mindfulness description always begins with sitting down cross-legged and setting mindfulness before. The actual description of the practice begins with in-breaths and out-breaths, of course, and there's the sermon in the samyutta nikaya volume five where Gautama describes his practice before and after enlightenment as the "intent concentration on in-breaths and out-breaths", but I am just as fascinated that he began by sitting down cross-legged and setting mindfulness before. I think it was probably the lotus; I think that was his genius, myself, to couple that posture with a practice associated with the truths about suffering.

[voidisyinyang]

Well my blogspot name is "spiral dance" -- when something moves super fast then it looks like it doesn't move at all -- hence the secret of the full-lotus. Spacetime spins around you -- that's the spiraldance secret. People can say whatever we want but the full-lotus is reality -- it's the secret of spacetime travel. You can do it through dance under special circumstances. The yin-yang dynamics will work -- but astral travel after collapsing to the ground is dangerous. Full-lotus will "ground" the energy. Chunyi Lin went 49 days in full-lotus nonstop -- no food, no water, no sleep. So who am I? The full-lotus is more real than I am.

 

Do you dance- just curious. I've tried to learn to play rock on an acoustic guitar, and I think I have a tune or two now; I guess I learned to do that by dancing to live bands in small clubs in S.F. long ago. Seems like as the posture comes along, so does the beat.

 

Hope your parents get well, if they are ill. Wonder what witch meant when she said she is doing what you are doing, raising energies through the spine to the third eye?

[Mark Foote]

Well my blogspot name is "spiral dance" -- when something moves super fast then it looks like it doesn't move at all -- hence the secret of the full-lotus. Spacetime spins around you -- that's the spiraldance secret. People can say whatever we want but the full-lotus is reality -- it's the secret of spacetime travel. You can do it through dance under special circumstances. The yin-yang dynamics will work -- but astral travel after collapsing to the ground is dangerous. Full-lotus will "ground" the energy. Chunyi Lin went 49 days in full-lotus nonstop -- no food, no water, no sleep. So who am I? The full-lotus is more real than I am.

 

right on, as far as I'm concerned; the posture is bringing me along, not the reverse.

[Son Goku]

If you want a different approach, check my website:

 

www.zenmudra.com

 

I thought my experience would translate into progress at the lotus, but after a lot of years, I decided I would have to figure it out, instead. So here's the story: as Carl Bielefeldt translated a master's words in the first edition of Dogen's Meditation Manuals, "seated meditation is not holding still". The fascia and ligaments of the body can generate muscular activity, involuntarily, if they are stretched sufficiently. Since the muscles and fascia are basically in pairs, the action of posture is fundamentally the reciprocal innervation of muscular tissue as the stretch of fascia alternates from side to side. The basic stretches you are interested in for the lotus are the stretches of the fascia that connects the sacrum to the pelvis; the sacrum moves, forward and backward, side to side, and around with the changes in volume of the fluid in the dural sac, surrounding the brain and the spinal cord all the way down to the sacrum. The fascia that connect the sacrum to the sit bones stretches, and generates activity side to side; the fascia that connects the sacrum to the forward undersides of the pelvis generates swivel activity left and right; and the fascia that connects the sacrum to the wings of the pelvis stretches and generates motion forward and back. Watch the motion of the sacrum, relax and look for feeling as the location of the occurrence of consciousness leads the motion of the body, in the legs and throughout the body. The presence of feeling is the correct alignment of the spine, and you will have to open a bit to pleasant and unpleasant feelings with the occurrence of consciousness in order to realize the stretch that generates the activity of the lotus.

Thanks.

 

WOW. There's something of importance said here.. !!

[Reader]

Does any know how much time daily a serious student of Master Wang spend on doing below practices?

 

Moving : Peng Heng Gong (Practice with trees), Method to exchange qi naturally (walking practice) etc

Standing : different Zhan Zhuangs, External 5 elements to open the channels, Bagua Yi Sphere.

Sleeping : 13 different sleeping forms

Sitting : Yin Xian Fa, Method of Intelligence

 

Thank you!

[kathyli]

Free reading of Taoist Practicing Methods from here.

 

Information about Cross Legged Sitting Meditation (盘坐), lotus posture. Thanks YM Wong making great contribution to this article.

[Andrei]

I have no idea what they say, maybe someone will translate from chinese to english, but it is interesting about the lotus pose meditation: