SHOCKER! "Avatar" Angers the Pope

[Astral Monk]

Enjoy your liberty. A Danish cartoonist's life has been threatened for much less raucous material.

 

Go to google.com and type the following and observe how Google completes the suggestion:

 

christianity is

 

judaism is

 

buddhism is

 

atheism is

 

islam is

 

Notice what happens when you type "islam is" into Google? Whatever we say about Christianity, but at least they don't try to murder people who make political images of Christians and things Christians hold dear.

 

Not anymore you mean!

 

But yeah, that google thing is mighty peculiar...

Edited January 14, 2010 by Astral Monk

[Trogdorf]

Funny how such a "bland" movie has managed to ruffle them so hard..

 

I would call it more of a message of respect for nature, spirituality and peace.

Sensationalist basteds trying to cover up its true message... Sigh

 

Well, at least the only ones listening are the Vatacin groupies etc.. I hope.

[jak3b]

Well, at least the only ones listening are the Vatacin groupies etc.. I hope.

 

Joseph Alois Ratzinger was in the Hitler youth.The catholic church has paid hundreds of millions of dollars in out of court settlements for abusing children in recent years.During the crusades,middle ages,inquisitions MILLIONS of people were tortured and killed in the most horrifying ways imaginable.Whole cultures wiped out there riches stolen,centuries of suppression of all kinds of knowledge,subjugation,slavery....Ya, Like I give a Ratz ass what they think

-A lapsed Catholic

[rain]

[hagar]

[Stigweard]

The sentiments expressed in this thread are interesting in a couple of ways. In one sense it certainly reveals how much latent anger there is for the catholic church for the couple of millenia of atrocities that it has committed and not fully attoned for. It also shows perhaps that alot of folks find there way to Taoism through their repulsion with western spirituality aka Christian orthodoxy.

 

And I understand this. I am very familiar with the disgust and hatred that can be felt when I think about my pagan forefathers and foremothers who suffered terribly at the hands of Christian oppression.

 

However there must come a time when we free ourselves from the bondage of our own hatred because that which we hate is that which we inevitably become. Hatred and the demonization of "the other side" is to perpetrate the same wrongs as those we are directing our hatred towards.

 

Our mind is the precious conduit between our body and spirit and, if we sully our minds with the petty hatreds of the world, then the only person we are causing injury to is ourselves. All we achieve by doing this is that we sever our chance for self-integration which is the ultimate blessing of the great Way of Dao.

 

So if our minds are passionately stirred up in protest against the Pope and the Catholic church, perhaps take a moment to be mindful of whatever unabsolved pains we are harboring within ourselves that are seeking expression and resolution in our displays of protest and anger. I would hope that here on TaoBums we could help each other grow to exhibit greater virtue and universal vision.

 

[King Kabalabhati]

Yeah if you find yourself getting too serious about it, or emotionally involved in it, it's time to stop hatin'

 

[Smile]

Wow, are all the moderators busy policing Drew at the moment?

[Stigweard]

Wow, are all the moderators busy policing Drew at the moment?

LOL no my friend. Drew was just spamming the lobby with SFQ links and, true to our policy of attempted invisibility (still working on that one ) we dropped a couple of PM's Drew's way. The only reason the issue is in the open forum is because Drew decided to take the issue public. All good now, it would appear we have shaken hands and made up

[Mal]

Wow, are all the moderators busy policing Drew at the moment?

 

And we don't have the resources or inclination to "police" people unless we really HAVE to.

 

Personally this thread seems a bit tame compared to many.... so far

[altiora]

The catholic church can hardly criticize any form of pagan worship, check out the two embroidered images in the photo that was posted above(left and right upper shoulders).... I mean take a closer look, they got horns! One's Pan I'm not sure of the other, but it's most definitely not Christian!

 

Catholicism, stealers of the knowledge.

 

Is it only me that thinks Avatar wasn't that good? I mean yeah, nice special effects and all, but the story line left a lot to be desired.....could have done with shaving off about 20-30 minutes, I almost fell asleep(in 3D). I prefered Camerons film with the big boat.

 

 

I think you should do some research: that isn't Pan, they're both Moses with the Tablets with the Commandments. The "horns" are due to a literal translation of the Vulgate tof Exodus 34:29-35, which speak of Moses' having "horns". Horns were symbolic of authority in ancient Near Eastern culture. However, in both Latin and Hebrew the word for horns can also refer to rays of light.

 

Sheesh. Is there such a need to attack the Church that we need to not bother about facts?!

Edited January 15, 2010 by altiora

[altiora]

The sentiments expressed in this thread are interesting in a couple of ways. In one sense it certainly reveals how much latent anger there is for the catholic church for the couple of millenia of atrocities that it has committed and not fully attoned for. It also shows perhaps that alot of folks find there way to Taoism through their repulsion with western spirituality aka Christian orthodoxy.

 

And I understand this. I am very familiar with the disgust and hatred that can be felt when I think about my pagan forefathers and foremothers who suffered terribly at the hands of Christian oppression.

 

However there must come a time when we free ourselves from the bondage of our own hatred because that which we hate is that which we inevitably become. Hatred and the demonization of "the other side" is to perpetrate the same wrongs as those we are directing our hatred towards.

 

Our mind is the precious conduit between our body and spirit and, if we sully our minds with the petty hatreds of the world, then the only person we are causing injury to is ourselves. All we achieve by doing this is that we sever our chance for self-integration which is the ultimate blessing of the great Way of Dao.

 

So if our minds are passionately stirred up in protest against the Pope and the Catholic church, perhaps take a moment to be mindful of whatever unabsolved pains we are harboring within ourselves that are seeking expression and resolution in our displays of protest and anger. I would hope that here on TaoBums we could help each other grow to exhibit greater virtue and universal vision.

 

 

 

Could I also suggest that a good start of freeing people from this hatred would be to examine the role in the Christian church in a bit more of an impartial way? i.e., to see that it has contributed to and enriched our culture, and that it has sustained, and continues to sustain, people spiritually.

 

Perhaps also see that in its first centuries of existence Christianity converted peoples by peaceful means; that the reason people converted was because of dissatisfaction with paganism ; and that pagans enjoyed torturing and murdering christians in that era.

 

And might I suggest that some people take their rosy tinted specs off and go see how institutionalized religion in eastern societies has also committed atrocities and support oppression too.

 

I had the prejudice towards Christianity too. Being of solid Anglican stock, I was prejudiced against 'the church of Rome". But then I started reading the great Christian mystics to see they have a great deal to offer. It also made me understand why ancestors found solace in the church, and to realise that those ancestors weren't uneducated fools that we moderns so often think they were.

 

So to put things another way: yes the church has committed wrong. Yes children in its care have been abused, which has been covered up, and that is wrong. But do we then dwell on that continually and forget about the millions of children who have and do benefit from its care and who have not been abused? Do we forget it is the church that provides social services that governments can't or won't? Do we forget those clergy and laity that have tirelessly devoted their lives to others and did not abuse anyone?

 

Do we need to continually mention the Inquisition etc, and forget that the church protected and inspired many many great thinkers? And should the church be held accountable for what happened centuries ago, when the perpetrators are now long dead, and were doing what was regarded as OK at the time?

 

I could go on and on. But my point can be summarized as follows: the path to spiritual development is to continually strive for a fuller measure of the truth. This means we must put aside our prejudices, and stop fixating on part of the picture, and try to start seeing the full picture. To do this we need knowledge and, to attain that, we need compassion.

Edited January 15, 2010 by altiora

[Ya Mu]

I think you should do some research: that isn't Pan, they're both Moses with the Tablets with the Commandments. The "horns" are due to a literal translation of the Vulgate tof Exodus 34:29-35, which speak of Moses' having "horns". Horns were symbolic of authority in ancient Near Eastern culture. However, in both Latin and Hebrew the word for horns can also refer to rays of light.

 

Sheesh. Is there such a need to attack the Church that we need to not bother about facts?!

My understanding is that what was meant is a "halo" of Light instead of "horns". It is such a shame that histories and teachings have been SO distorted by man's mistranslations and attempts to control.

 

I do not have respect for an organization that sits on more money than any country, calls itself benevolent yet will not use that money for helping others. This organization's history does not give one much confidence in their benevolence.

[Encephalon]

My understanding is that what was meant is a "halo" of Light instead of "horns". It is such a shame that histories and teachings have been SO distorted by man's mistranslations and attempts to control.

 

I do not have respect for an organization that sits on more money than any country, calls itself benevolent yet will not use that money for helping others. This organization's history does not give one much confidence in their benevolence.

 

This is similar in spirit to what I have attempted to point out. I don't lie awake at 3:00 am obsessing about the Church's history. It's the way the church behaves in the present, particulalry with this Pope at the helm, that explains a lot of disappointment and anger, particularly with mysogeny, pedophilia, the prohibition against priests getting married or allowing women to be ordained, their outright hostility to liberation theology of Any stripe, and their indifference to environmental catastrophe.

 

The Buddhists have a saying that the teachings are like a raft to get from one side of the river to the next. Once you make the crossing, you leave the raft on the shore. You don't resume your journey by carrying it on your shoulders.

 

Could I also suggest that a good start of freeing people from this hatred would be to examine the role in the Christian church in a bit more of an impartial way? i.e., to see that it has contributed to and enriched our culture, and that it has sustained, and continues to sustain, people spiritually.

 

Perhaps also see that in its first centuries of existence Christianity converted peoples by peaceful means; that the reason people converted was because of dissatisfaction with paganism ; and that pagans enjoyed torturing and murdering christians in that era.

 

And might I suggest that some people take their rosy tinted specs off and go see how institutionalized religion in eastern societies has also committed atrocities and support oppression too.

 

I had the prejudice towards Christianity too. Being of solid Anglican stock, I was prejudiced against 'the church of Rome". But then I started reading the great Christian mystics to see they have a great deal to offer. It also made me understand why ancestors found solace in the church, and to realise that those ancestors weren't uneducated fools that we moderns so often think they were.

 

So to put things another way: yes the church has committed wrong. Yes children in its care have been abused, which has been covered up, and that is wrong. But do we then dwell on that continually and forget about the millions of children who have and do benefit from its care and who have not been abused? Do we forget it is the church that provides social services that governments can't or won't? Do we forget those clergy and laity that have tirelessly devoted their lives to others and did not abuse anyone?

 

Do we need to continually mention the Inquisition etc, and forget that the church protected and inspired many many great thinkers? And should the church be held accountable for what happened centuries ago, when the perpetrators are now long dead, and were doing what was regarded as OK at the time?

 

I could go on and on. But my point can be summarized as follows: the path to spiritual development is to continually strive for a fuller measure of the truth. This means we must put aside our prejudices, and stop fixating on part of the picture, and try to start seeing the full picture. To do this we need knowledge and, to attain that, we need compassion.

 

I don't honestly believe I could detract from this sentiment in any meaningful way, but if I had to weigh the good against the bad, my own opinion, and the opinion of my humanist brethren (surprise surprise) is that the positive contributions of christian orthodoxies have been eclipsed by the negative components. As C.P. Snow once said, "More crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than in the name of rebellion."

[Owledge]

I didn't read the thread, but I wanted to say that it's no wonder the catholic church doesn't like nature-worship, because this is exactly what they have perverted/assimilated/adapted/converted into their mass-control-oriented religion. I've read that the original meaning of "catholic" is something like "all under one roof". The catholics tried to make a religion that they could unite all people under in order to control them.

[Encephalon]

I didn't read the thread, but I wanted to say that it's no wonder the catholic church doesn't like nature-worship, because this is exactly what they have perverted/assimilated/adapted/converted into their mass-control-oriented religion. I've read that the original meaning of "catholic" is something like "all under one roof". The catholics tried to make a religion that they could unite all people under in order to control them.

 

I think you're right - I believe it ultimately boils down to possessing control over others. Whether this impulse stems from a simple lust for power, or from the fear of human beings creating chaos once they are unleashed, is something I'm still wrestling with. We have so much potential, and yet we create such nightmares for ourselves.

[Owledge]

Whether this impulse stems from a simple lust for power, or from the fear of human beings creating chaos once they are unleashed, is something I'm still wrestling with.

Obviously both happens. You can figure this out by studying a person's character/behavior. The deeper they are in the power-business, the more likely it is that they are just using the latter as a lame excuse.

And in the latter case, those people have to understand that their way of thinking is what makes this point valid in the first place. Of course, you can't for example abandon all laws and expect things to be OK, but when you make a process out of it, step by step, it will be good. People will learn, grow, adapt.

The other way is also possible: that people use the latter as a lame excuse and later begin to honestly believe in their own bullshit. ( whatever "honestly" means in this case )

 

By the way... When you compare the real 'policy' of the catholic church with the (pretty much opposite) teachings of Jesus Christ, it makes perfect sense that the warnings in the bible about the antichrist are about the Pope.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Hardyg

[altiora]

My understanding is that what was meant is a "halo" of Light instead of "horns". It is such a shame that histories and teachings have been SO distorted by man's mistranslations and attempts to control.

 

Your point is? As I said the "literal" interpretation of the Vulgate is 'horns"; the Vulgate is written in Latin. It was translated from the Greek and Hebrew versions which use a word closer to "ray of light" or, as you say, "halo". The latin translators made use of the closest word in the lexicon.

 

I do not have respect for an organization that sits on more money than any country, calls itself benevolent yet will not use that money for helping others. This organization's history does not give one much confidence in their benevolence.

 

I hope you're principle enough to aim that criticism at other organisations? And do you practice what you preach by giving to the poor?

 

 

 

This is similar in spirit to what I have attempted to point out. I don't lie awake at 3:00 am obsessing about the Church's history. It's the way the church behaves in the present, particulalry with this Pope at the helm, that explains a lot of disappointment and anger, particularly with mysogeny, pedophilia, the prohibition against priests getting married or allowing women to be ordained, their outright hostility to liberation theology of Any stripe, and their indifference to environmental catastrophe.

 

The Buddhists have a saying that the teachings are like a raft to get from one side of the river to the next. Once you make the crossing, you leave the raft on the shore. You don't resume your journey by carrying it on your shoulders.

I don't honestly believe I could detract from this sentiment in any meaningful way, but if I had to weigh the good against the bad, my own opinion, and the opinion of my humanist brethren (surprise surprise) is that the positive contributions of christian orthodoxies have been eclipsed by the negative components. As C.P. Snow once said, "More crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than in the name of rebellion."

 

How did you weigh that?

[Encephalon]

How did you weigh that?

 

"I" don't. This is the consensus drawn by the voices I've come to respect and depend on for the construction of my own worldview. I would have to include the humanist community in general, from Robert Ingersoll and the Free Thinking movement of the 1800s through Nietsche, Bertrand Russell, Erich Fromm, CP Snow, maybe Marx, maybe a few others. I was a critical thinking junkie as an undergrad, which only cemented my secular orientation. But a cursory reading of European history could probably go a long way too.

 

This is not to suggest that religion does not or can not play an important role in personal spiritual evolution, because it certainly played a positive role in my own. And at the tender age of 35, it was eclipsed by my formal studies. My spiritual life (not my religious one) only became richer for it, however.

[sinno]

HAHA well that is a classic case of a "SITH" hiding in among the "SHEEP" and in "ROBES".

This is a "Jinn" in human form.

 

always had a feeling something was "wrong" with this Pope.

[Ya Mu]

...

 

My point was simply to add the word "halo" which is my understanding of the interpretation; wasn't saying you were wrong.

 

Even if I stole all I could from every poor person I met it wouldn't change the FACT that the Catholic Church is sitting on mass Trillion's of dollars and treasure hoards instead of using it to help others. So, sorry, your trying to change the subject to me doesn't work and is quite insulting. Try a better non-personal argument.

I think ALL religion's attempts of control has contributed greatly to humankind's fall.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Ya Mu

[Encephalon]

My point was simply to add the word "halo" which is my understanding of the interpretation; wasn't saying you were wrong.

 

Even if I stole all I could from every poor person I met it wouldn't change the FACT that the Catholic Church is sitting on mass Trillion's of dollars and treasure hoards instead of using it to help others. So, sorry, your trying to change the subject to me doesn't work and is quite insulting. Try a better non-personal argument.

I think ALL religion's attempts of control has contributed greatly to humankind's fall.

 

Be on the lookout for how much $$ the Vatican sends to Haiti.