Most Underrated Systems, Teachers, Books, etc

[Creation]

More additions to the practice doesn't make it better. The practice Yang Jwing Ming describes is for neigong/neidan...it's different than Frantzis' focus.

The focus is not different, it is nei gong: cultivating the free flow of chi throughout the body, especially the central channel, dan tien and later the mco and dai mai. It also cultivates concentration and awareness. The different parts are practiced in a circular way, until all can be integrated into each breath, so it is not a bunch of different "additions" cobbled together.

 

Have you listened to and practiced from the CDs in question? It seems to me that you haven't, even though you assured me you knew what you were talking about.

[effilang]

[Guest sykkelpump]

You don't know what you're talking about. YJM's embryonic breathing instruction is the best breathing practice out there.

do you know what you are talking about?

have you learned embryonic brreathing from YJM?

Edited January 23, 2010 by sykkelpump

[Aetherous]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Scotty

[Guest sykkelpump]

Already answered that question. I have his materials, so yes.

 

I think it's superior instruction to longevity breathing.

 

Enough discussion...

enough discussion?

that means you cant do embryonic breathing isnt that right.how many do you know have learned embryonic breathing from a dvd or a book?

you cant,if you meditate and you reach a stage with empty mind and the breath seems to stop,then embryonic breathing will start by itself.you dont know what you are talking about scotty

[Reader]

enough discussion?

that means you cant do embryonic breathing isnt that right.how many do you know have learned embryonic breathing from a dvd or a book?

you cant,if you meditate and you reach a stage with empty mind and the breath seems to stop,then embryonic breathing will start by itself.you dont know what you are talking about scotty

 

I was about to say the same. To me, Embryonic Breathing is not there to master, it is more like a result. We confuse about the cause and the effect.

[Creation]

I recently posted this in another thread.

According to Taoist lore, there is a phase of practice where the breath stops and the body breathes chi directly in and out of the lower dan tien in a supercharged kind of way. This is the state of embryonic breathing (tai xi), which is a spontaneous state and not a practice. The practices with that name (e.g. Yang JM's stuff) call themselves that because they cultivate the breath in and out of the dan tien, even though the physical breath is still used to access it.

The fact that YJM does not mention this state as being the "true" embryonic breathing made me wonder, but I only saw the DVD, does he mention it in the book?

 

Scotty,

 

Longevity Breathing is not Taoist Internal Breathing, it is a subset of it. A different subset than what YJM calls embryonic breathing, which is another subset of Taoist Internal Breathing.

 

If you could only step back from your self assurance for one moment.

 

Sending love your way,

Tyler

[Aetherous]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Scotty

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Having studied directly with Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming.. i can assure you the books and videos are great references, but.. there is no substitute for direct learning. Read the books and study the videos for many hours, then.. make the investment to visit the author, spend a day with YJM, it will change your Life.. Spend a day with WCC Chen.. Spend a day with Rick Barrett.. and, if you have the initiative, first find her, then spend a day with Mde. Cui Yu Li.. make those real investments, and.. this sort of 'book talk' will diminish greatly..

 

Be well..

[Baguakid]

Greetings..

 

Having studied directly with Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming.. i can assure you the books and videos are great references, but.. there is no substitute for direct learning. Read the books and study the videos for many hours, then.. make the investment to visit the author, spend a day with YJM, it will change your Life.. Spend a day with WCC Chen.. Spend a day with Rick Barrett.. and, if you have the initiative, first find her, then spend a day with Mde. Cui Yu Li.. make those real investments, and.. this sort of 'book talk' will diminish greatly..

 

Be well..

 

I've met Dr. YJM at one of Jeff Bolt's events and honestly, I wasn't impressed. Recently, a story by a local healer regarding his experiences with Dr. YJM solidified that feeling.

 

The only one I would be interested in meeting out of your list is Cui Yuli.. but it seems she's a ghost as I have yet, over many years, to find her. Do you know where she is Bob?

 

Best,

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Bill: As soon as is practical, we should meet and talk.. we have much to discuss..

 

Be well..

[Reader]

I think this is worth checking out, and I am the only one who has mentioned it around here:

http://www.damo-qigong.net/qigong/course.html

It looks to be a GOLD MINE for those who wish to get started on authentic nei dan. I have major respect for Hu Xuezhi. Maybe when I get the money and get in a position to practice it I'll be the one to get it and tell you guys how it is.

 

Creation,

 

Thank you for bring this back.

 

I too have respects for teacher Hu for: (a) having translated some valuable Tao materials in to English, ( having Dao Zhen as one of his students (Dao Zhen has studied with many other teachers).

 

Do you know if he is more of Tao scholar or a Tao practitioner?

[Guest sykkelpump]

Totally agreed, actually. I first got to that stage through meditation a number of years ago...but it comes and goes...

 

YJM's instruction is the best way to cultivate it and enhance it. In my opinion it is really the key that everyone is searching for. But it's not some fancy technique, so it's an ugly key.

 

However, I wish to stop being so agitating on this forum...from now on I am not going to post my opinion at all...it will be good for me. Peace to everyone.

..

Edited January 24, 2010 by sykkelpump

[Aetherous]

I'll PM you.

[Old Man Contradiction]

It seems to me that every system I've ever seen sold on the internet is overrated.

 

Lam Kam Chuen's books are a good start. But they only take the first few baby steps.

 

Chi Kung is a heavy, painful, burning, sweaty process. It is far from being relaxed and easy. It is hard work. From what I've seen of the majority of systems where people are just waving their hands in the air or sitting and breathing, none really involve hard work.

 

So in my opinion, good I-Chuan is the most underrated system. Within I-Chuan you have to sift through some of the less than good stuff too, but if you can trace Wang Xiangzhai's original stuff to a contemporary teacher with an equally intense focus and drive, than you've found a really good "system". Not to mention, Hsing-I and Pakua both have good kungfu too. Some taiji is good, but it really breaks taiji's stereotype of being soft and gentle.

 

Anyway, these ideas aren't the most popular. Take it or leave it, and sorry if my opinions have stepped on your toes.

[Guest sykkelpump]

It seems to me that every system I've ever seen sold on the internet is overrated.

 

Lam Kam Chuen's books are a good start. But they only take the first few baby steps.

 

Chi Kung is a heavy, painful, burning, sweaty process. It is far from being relaxed and easy. It is hard work. From what I've seen of the majority of systems where people are just waving their hands in the air or sitting and breathing, none really involve hard work.

 

So in my opinion, good I-Chuan is the most underrated system. Within I-Chuan you have to sift through some of the less than good stuff too, but if you can trace Wang Xiangzhai's original stuff to a contemporary teacher with an equally intense focus and drive, than you've found a really good "system". Not to mention, Hsing-I and Pakua both have good kungfu too. Some taiji is good, but it really breaks taiji's stereotype of being soft and gentle.

 

Anyway, these ideas aren't the most popular. Take it or leave it, and sorry if my opinions have stepped on your toes.

i will tell you why most systems are overated: it is because embryonic breathing,microcosmic orbit,kundalini,dantien breathing,full body breathing ........you name it.it is all things that happen when you meditate.people have tried to recreate this things with diffrent kinds of breathing methods and systems.that is why most people dont sucess with their systems,because this things is a result of meditaion.you can not learn it by methods.if energy channels are somewhat open yes you can learn some low level stuff.

[Old Man Contradiction]

i will tell you why most systems are overated: it is because embryonic breathing,microcosmic orbit,kundalini,dantien breathing,full body breathing ........you name it.it is all things that happen when you meditate.people have tried to recreate this things with diffrent kinds of breathing methods and systems.that is why most people dont sucess with their systems,because this things is a result of meditaion.you can not learn it by methods.if energy channels are somewhat open yes you can learn some low level stuff.

 

In other words, you believe that all of these methods make up the disassembled act of meditating. I believe that, I also believe that meditation, qigong, and martial training are disassembled parts of what happens when you train in the style of a real "internal" martial art, aka not most forms taught around the world.

[Sloppy Zhang]

i will tell you why most systems are overated: it is because embryonic breathing,microcosmic orbit,kundalini,dantien breathing,full body breathing ........you name it.it is all things that happen when you meditate.people have tried to recreate this things with diffrent kinds of breathing methods and systems.that is why most people dont sucess with their systems,because this things is a result of meditaion.you can not learn it by methods.if energy channels are somewhat open yes you can learn some low level stuff.

 

I have had some similar thoughts recently about a few things.

 

I've thought of it like shooting a basketball. Kids can make a basketball shot easily without understanding the physics behind it. A physicist might come in and know all the formulas and amounts of force needed to make the shot, and then recreate the shot... but may or may not be able to do it.

 

You don't necessarily need to understand all the math behind it to do something.

 

Then again, maybe you do?

 

This is just something I've thought of from time to time, not drawn any real conclusions though.

[Creation]

Creation,

 

Thank you for bring this back.

 

I too have respects for teacher Hu for: (a) having translated some valuable Tao materials in to English, ( having Dao Zhen as one of his students (Dao Zhen has studied with many other teachers).

 

Do you know if he is more of Tao scholar or a Tao practitioner?

Teacher Hu seems to be both a practitioner and a scholar of considerable accomplishment. The scolar part is clear from his site, the practitioner part is the impression I got from Dao Zhen. This assumes Hu is in fact the Teacher Dao Zhen referred to. I always got the impression that Teacher Hu was Dao Zhen's primary Taoism/nei dan teacher, for various reasons.

[Kunlun Enthusiast]

I have been doing it for almost a year,I mix it with meditation which is my main practice.I think it is best to not mix it with other qi gong systems.and there is no reason to do so imo since falun gong includes movement,zhan zhuang and sitting postures

 

 

Anyone still practicing Falun Gong? Had any benefits out of it? It's free and all that and so if it's good, that would be awesome.

 

Has any one compared it with any other type of Medical qigong, better, easier etc.? Also, anyone practicing it along with other qigong or internal arts?

[Zhenlung]

Teacher Hu seems to be both a practitioner and a scholar of considerable accomplishment. The scolar part is clear from his site, the practitioner part is the impression I got from Dao Zhen. This assumes Hu is in fact the Teacher Dao Zhen referred to. I always got the impression that Teacher Hu was Dao Zhen's primary Taoism/nei dan teacher, for various reasons.

 

Dao Zhen - Jesse? was on the same workshop we were on up on Mount Wudang some years before. I didn't see him on Bums lately, but what he posted before looked like notes from Hu's lectures. Like Creation said Dao Zhen talked about Hu being his primary teacher. Hu is a practitioner, no question, and I would say well accomplished in practice. It is difficult to find out anything about him though. No kiddin, he didn't talk about himself in the whole two weeks we were there. He's like someone you would walk past in the street. He would disappear in a crowd. Yet he has something about him...... it isn't easy to define...but it is there. I still practice his Nei Gong and Damo Qigong. It is like a slow burner. Powerful stuff. I would go back if I could. I hope I'll make it back again sometime. Maybe make it next year.

[Raymond Wolter]

Have to second that. A superb routine, and costs nothing to learn and practice. The often-discussed lower back pain, I had it all my adult life till falun gong, and never again. (Knock on wood.) The founder did say some strange things, and way back when, when I was exposed to it, to me the mention of aliens among us was the last straw... but now there's hardly a master out there who doesn't mention them.

 

Nothing wrong with the main message -- truthfulness, forbearance, kindness -- either. The falun itself, too, is as old as the stars, older in fact... and feeling it in your body is quite a trip.

 

The downside being that it's one of those schools that are deemed incompatible with other methods of cultivation. Perhaps because qi pathways it opens are rather unique. I had to cut my hair very short at one point when practicing this because qi started flowing upward along the back and getting entangled in the hair! However, once I did cut it, I knew why and wherefore so many monks and nuns of so many traditions do that.

 

Very interesting. So far, I have only heard negative things about Falun Gong but here is something from someone who has actually practiced it. Anyone else has any experience with Falun? Not Li's weird philosophy but the energy of the form itself?

 

Kenneth Cohen seems to dislike the whole Falun gong thing...

 

 

Qigong is an evolving art. Old styles are modified and refined, and new styles are created according to the experiences, insights, and talents of practitioners. One of these new systems, called Falun Gong, was introduced by forty-one year old Li Hongzhi in 1992. Fa is the Chinese translation of the Sanskrit word dharma, meaning Buddhist teachings. Lun translates the Sanskrit word chakra, meaning wheel. Falun is the dharma chakra, the wheel of Buddhist teachings. To turn the wheel of the dharma is to practice and propagate Buddhist teachings. Gong means skill or it may be short for the skill of controlling qi: qigong. Thus the name Falun Gong means "a qigong method that spreads Buddhist wisdom." Alternately, this system is called Falun Dafa, the Great (Da) Method (fa) of Falun. It includes both dynamic qigong (dong gong) in which qi is stimulated through gentle exercises, as well as quiescent qigong (jing gong), in which the mind controls qi during meditation.

 

Falun is more than a philosophical principle and a qigong system. The falun is also a spiritual energy center in the lower abdomen. This is not as esoteric as it first sounds. Imagine that you are a belly dancer doing hip gyrations--these movements, by the way, are part of a sacred healing dance tradition from the Middle East, originally practiced by women preparing for childbirth. Now imagine the movements getting smaller and smaller until your body is hardly moving at all, yet you still sense motion within the belly. The feeling of subtle rotating energy is actually very pleasant. The "energy ball" massages the internal organs, relaxes the diaphragm (causing a deepening and slowing down of the breath), and awakens an awareness of the body's untapped potentials. In conventional qigong and Taijiquan practice, this sensation is called dan tian nei zhuan, inner rotation of the dan tian (elixir field). I am convinced that the turning of the falun mentioned in Li Hongzhi's various publications is a variation of dan tian rotation. It is a valid qigong technique.

 

In Li Hongzhi's A Brief Statement of Mine, he says, "Falun Gong is simply a popular qigong activity." (www.falundafa.org). The exercises and meditations he recommends are, in my opinion, good qigong. However, the philosophy of Falun Gong is a mish-mosh of bizarre beliefs about Buddhism, Taoism, and UFOs. This does not in any way condone Chinese censorship or the persecution of Li's followers. However, the scholar in me cringes when I read the Falun Gong materials or when Western media assumes that Falun Gong is representative of Buddhist or Taoist philosophy. Falun Gong is neither Buddhist nor Taoist; it is the personal philosophy of Li Hongzhi blended with messianic and millennial beliefs. I have outlined below several of the most serious errors in Falun Gong philosophy by offering personal commentary.

 

Automatic Spirituality. Li claims "the falun is constantly rotating, putting the practitioner in the state of cultivation for 24 hours a day. Of all the qigong or cultivation systems known to the public, Falun Dafa is the first and only one that solves the conflicting time requirements for practicing and work or study." (Brief Introduction of Falun Dafa www.falundafa.org) This is a grandiose claim sure to attract followers. Are the cures attributed to Falun Gong a massive placebo effect, the power of expectant trust? I would like to see how long-term followers react to a Beijing traffic jam or how American followers meditate on Tax Day.

 

I am not denying that Falun Gong can be good medicine. Like other qigong systems, scientific studies suggest that it may have positive effects on cardiovascular disease, respiratory disease, and other ailments. However, one of the largest studies of Falun Gong also states "only when those practitioners upgraded their Xingxing (mind nature and moral level) unceasingly, could the effects be remarkable." (The Effect of Falun Gong on Healing Illnesses and Keeping Fit..., October 18, 1998 www.ncsu.edu/stud_orgs/falun/ reports/Survey2new.html)

 

This suggests a strong placebo effect. The study is also suspect because it only surveyed practitioners--no non-believing "controls" for comparison--and was conducted by a Falun Gong association (Falun Gong Zizhuyuan Assistance Center, Beijing). If an organization has a vested financial or personal interest in finding a positive result, it almost always will. This is why western scientific protocol requires that research be judged by independent and, hopefully, impartial referees. (Biased research is all too common in China. When I wrote The Way of Qigong, I found that only about 10% of published qigong experiments were scientifically trustworthy.)

 

And a rebuttal by one of the Dafa members (I guess?)

 

 

Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa, differentiates itself from most other Qigong practices because it goes beyond the pursuit of health and fitness to the goal of greater wisdom and enlightenment. The practice of Falun Dafa has two components: self-improvement through the study of the principles of the universe: Zhen (Truthfulness), Shan (Compassion), Ren (Tolerance), through Mr. Li's teachings (as articulated in two books, Falun Gong and Zhuan Falun) and doing Falun Gong's five gentle exercises. Beginners should start with Falun Gong.

 

Falun Gong's exercises are simple, graceful, and easy to learn. It is suitable for all ages. Yet it is very powerful. For example, three out of four Falun standing stances are high position (that is, the center of palms is higher than the shoulders) whereas none of the other Qigong Schools begin with a high position. This is because practicing like this can raise blood pressure and is therefore dangerous to high blood pressure patients. However, many people's hypertension was cured after practicing Falun Gong and they are off medicine now. Falun Gong's sitting meditation requires the full-lotus position (with two legs crossed and overlapping each other) whereas other schools only practice a sitting meditation after reaching a high level. The starting point of Falun Gong is at a very high level. Falun Gong's disease-healing effects are undeniable; yet, these are just Falun Gong's side effects. "The exercises are auxiliary means of achieving perfection in cultivation."(10) One who just practices the exercises is not a genuine Falun Gong practitioner.

 

Falun is a unique feature of Falun Gong. It is formed in the Dantian (below the umbilicus) area, but it is not Dan. It consists of high-energy matter and is a miniature of the universe. Like the earth rotating automatically on its own and around the sun, like the galaxies rotating, Falun is constantly rotating. It is this kind of a rotating mechanism. The movements of Falun Gong are just for enhancing this mechanism. The function of Falun is to evolve Gong (high-energy matter), to purify the body, and rectify any abnormal state (like illness) for the practitioner. However, this does not mean that Falun Gong is an effortless practice. You can think of Falun as a factory that can produce Gong. It needs raw material and rules to operate. This material is called De (virtue, a matter) and the rule is the Xinxing standard. Falun Gong is a cultivation practice. "No cultivation way is easy."(11)Falun Gong has high Xinxing requirements.