3 deaths in Sedona sweatlodge is not just a tragedy but also a crime

[zen-bear]

This story about three people dying in a sweatlodge conducted by a "new age" guru made my blood boil so I decided to start a discussion of it here by sounding off on it, since Amerindians are indeed the indigenous Taoists of North American:

 

I hope you never do a sweatlodge unless it's being conducted by an

geniune Amerindian spiritualist. Check this out:

 

( took time off tonight to post this to thetaobums.com to start a totally different type of conversation:)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/us/14sweat.html?ref=us

 

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local...e_deaths_010210

 

Starting in 1980, my friend and kung-fu classmate Geoff Pfeiffer, a Ph.D. candidate in psychology, and healing arts protege of my teacher John Davidson, the sr. student of Taoist Master Share K. Lew, was a devoted follower of a Lakota Indian spiritual group led by Don Perrote and invited me along to many of their sweatlodges, which were done properly according to Lakota traditions (using so many river rocks and using the right combination of herbs placed on the heated rocks. I attended about 20 over the course of 3 years, sometimes at a rate of once or twice a month. Some were held in the backyards of the Indian members. We did several sweatlodge ceremonies at a bucolic retreat center in NE San Diego county near the rustic town of Julian (apple country) that had beautiful meadows and lakes. From a 60 min. sweatlodge session straight into cool lake--nothing better. On a few occasions a very powerful Lakota medicine man, aka a "roadman", named Bear Heart presided and led the Lakota songs and prayers, with any number of other Lakotas beating drums. (By definition, a roadman has control over 400 types of spiritual entities. The stories of his spiritual work are awesome and hair-raising--they sound quite related to and on par with Castaneda's chronicles of Don Juan and Don Genaro). But there was never--ever--more than 15-16 people in any of the sweatlodges I attended. Most of the time it was 10 to 14 including the leader. A sweatlodge is a very personal place of prayer, healing, and sacred communion with many types of supramundane entties--where each person airs out his problems/confesses sins/etc. before his peers, the roadman, and the Spirits. A sweat should only be conducted by an experienced healer who has powers and can "see". Our group's Lakota custom was that each person did not enter or leave the sweatlodge without saying "Matockqui-essen". Every sweat that the Lakota group conducted was free-of-charge; except that everyone brought a dish for the potluck dinner that followed each one. A sweat-lodge--where temperatures can reach in excess 300 degrees F. (bearable because of the herbs used, so the lining of your lungs and sinuses don't sear) should never be run by amateurs--let alone by a self-proclaimed "new age" guru for commerce and profit.

 

Spiritual Warrior my ass. This so-called guru James Arthur Ray who put 55 people in a sweatlodge and got 3 killed is guilty at the very least of negligent homicide. And just punishment for him would be being placed face-down on a pile 40 fully heated river rocks. (40 is the no. of river rocks I was told the Lakotas use when they do sweatlodges for inmates in the state penetentiaries.). In the sweatlodges that I attended, we used between 16 to 24 river rocks. 24 heated river rocks in a 20 ft-diameter, 4 foot tall wickiup is damn, damn hot, folks. At any rate, this guru's operation is nothing but a money-grubbing cult because there's nothing that overloads the critical mind than an intense steam bath with 55 confused souls chanting who knows what the "guru" was having them chant. To see how long one can stay in the sweat is never the point of any sweatlodge. Besides causing 3 deaths, this total bastardization of an authentic and powerful Amerindian ritual is totally disgusting to me and makes my blood boil. I'm thinking of writing the Arizona D.A. to give him ideas as to how to make his case for making the stiffest criminal penalties stick to Ray--by using authentic Amerindian medicine men as expert witnesses and presenting to a jury how far this puke departed from safe and correct Amerindian practices.

 

Sifu Terence Dunn

[zen-bear]

This story about three people dying in a sweatlodge conducted by a "new age" guru made my blood boil so I decided to start a discussion of it here by sounding off on it, since Amerindians are indeed the indigenous Taoists of North American:

 

I hope you never do a sweatlodge unless it's being conducted by an

geniune Amerindian spiritualist. Check this out:

 

( took time off tonight to post this to thetaobums.com to start a totally different type of conversation:)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/us/14sweat.html?ref=us

 

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local...e_deaths_010210

 

Starting in 1980, my friend and kung-fu classmate Geoff Pfeiffer, a Ph.D. candidate in psychology, and healing arts protege of my teacher John Davidson, the sr. student of Taoist Master Share K. Lew, was a devoted follower of a Lakota Indian spiritual group led by Don Perrote and invited me along to many of their sweatlodges, which were done properly according to Lakota traditions (using so many river rocks and using the right combination of herbs placed on the heated rocks. I attended about 20 over the course of 3 years, sometimes at a rate of once or twice a month. Some were held in the backyards of the Indian members. We did several sweatlodge ceremonies at a bucolic retreat center in NE San Diego county near the rustic town of Julian (apple country) that had beautiful meadows and lakes. From a 60 min. sweatlodge session straight into cool lake--nothing better. On a few occasions a very powerful Lakota medicine man, aka a "roadman", named Bear Heart presided and led the Lakota songs and prayers, with any number of other Lakotas beating drums. (By definition, a roadman has control over 400 types of spiritual entities. The stories of his spiritual work are awesome and hair-raising--they sound quite related to and on par with Castaneda's chronicles of Don Juan and Don Genaro). But there was never--ever--more than 15-16 people in any of the sweatlodges I attended. Most of the time it was 10 to 14 including the leader. A sweatlodge is a very personal place of prayer, healing, and sacred communion with many types of supramundane entties--where each person airs out his problems/confesses sins/etc. before his peers, the roadman, and the Spirits. A sweat should only be conducted by an experienced healer who has powers and can "see". Our group's Lakota custom was that each person did not enter or leave the sweatlodge without saying "Matockqui-essen". Every sweat that the Lakota group conducted was free-of-charge; except that everyone brought a dish for the potluck dinner that followed each one. A sweat-lodge--where temperatures can reach in excess 300 degrees F. (bearable because of the herbs used, so the lining of your lungs and sinuses don't sear) should never be run by amateurs--let alone by a self-proclaimed "new age" guru for commerce and profit.

 

Spiritual Warrior my ass. This so-called guru James Arthur Ray who put 55 people in a sweatlodge and got 3 killed is guilty at the very least of negligent homicide. And just punishment for him would be being placed face-down on a pile 40 fully heated river rocks. (40 is the no. of river rocks I was told the Lakotas use when they do sweatlodges for inmates in the state penetentiaries.). In the sweatlodges that I attended, we used between 16 to 24 river rocks. 24 heated river rocks in a 20 ft-diameter, 4 foot tall wickiup is damn, damn hot, folks. At any rate, this guru's operation is nothing but a money-grubbing cult because there's nothing that overloads the critical mind than an intense steam bath with 55 confused souls chanting who knows what the "guru" was having them chant. To see how long one can stay in the sweat is never the point of any sweatlodge. Besides causing 3 deaths, this total bastardization of an authentic and powerful Amerindian ritual is totally disgusting to me and makes my blood boil. I'm thinking of writing the Arizona D.A. to give him ideas as to how to make his case for making the stiffest criminal penalties stick to Ray--by using authentic Amerindian medicine men as expert witnesses and presenting to a jury how far this puke departed from safe and correct Amerindian practices.

 

Sifu Terence Dunn

P.S. To end on a positive note, here is another's nice account of a Lakota sweat properly done:

 

http://carl-hereandthere.blogspot.com/2007...weat-lodge.html

[voidisyinyang]

There was some good discussion on this over at realitysandwich

 

http://www.realitysandwich.com/sweat_lodge_tragedy

 

This is an excellent biography of a Lakota healer.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Price-Gift-Lakota-He...y/dp/0803282826

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=TAutE7oDt...;q=&f=false

Edited January 14, 2010 by drewhempel

[zen-bear]

There was some good discussion on this over at realitysandwich

 

http://www.realitysandwich.com/sweat_lodge_tragedy

 

This is an excellent biography of a Lakota healer.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Price-Gift-Lakota-He...y/dp/0803282826

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=TAutE7oDt...;q=&f=false

Thanks so much, drewhempel. I will check out these discussions.

 

Regards.

 

TD

[SeriesOfTubes]

I've been in a few hundred Dakota sweats at a nearby reservation and am slowly training to sing. It's so obvious that he attended one sweat that was itself probably not legit and said "I can do this!" with dollar signs in his eyes.

 

one of the main problems (besides charging $) is in the photo in the second link, the blue plastic tarp. also the lodge being too big, so that the people on the opposite side too far away from the door got no relief while he would have been able to catch a few breaths. Also a real Dakota/Lakota inipi needs to be run by a Sundancer with specific training.

 

what they had there can't even accurately be called a sweat lodge. It will be a real shame if he doesn't do jail time.

Edited January 14, 2010 by SeriesOfTubes

[zen-bear]

Thanks so much, drewhempel. I will check out these discussions.

 

Regards.

 

TD

 

 

Drewhempel.

 

I just read:

 

http://www.realitysandwich.com/sweat_lodge_tragedy

 

thanks again.

excellent article by an experienced lodge-leader with solid western medical credentials.

it calmed me down quite a bit. To the point where I just shake my head in grief over what happened.

 

I teach and preserve several Taoist and Taoist-Buddhist arts: Tao Tan Pai kung-fu, Yang Tai Chi Chuan, Six Harmonies/Eight Methods Boxing, Flying Phoenix Qigong (one of my students started a forum discussion on this rare and esoteric art), Eight Sections of Energy Combined. When my teachings in these traditions occasionally get misused by the profane, I've taken appropriate measures.

 

I'm also a certified hypnotherapist in California and an expert on cult phenomena with real experience in the very difficult art of deprogramming. I know all the ins and outs of cult manipulation and have seen first-hand the extreme damage it can do to people. I know how it's done, and how to undo it. 'Encountered a dangerous amount of it during my first 15 years of training under bona fide kung-fu masters. Got totally clear of it in 1985 and am a quiet crusader against that sort of evil ever since. that's why I boiled over when I read about the Sedona incident.

Edited January 14, 2010 by zen-bear

[zen-bear]

I've been in a few hundred Dakota sweats at a nearby reservation and am slowly training to sing. It's so obvious that he attended one sweat that was itself probably not legit and said "I can do this!" with dollar signs in his eyes.

 

one of the main problems (besides charging $) is in the photo in the second link, the blue plastic tarp. also the lodge being too big, so that the people on the opposite side too far away from the door got no relief while he would have been able to catch a few breaths. Also a real Dakota/Lakota inipi needs to be run by a Sundancer with specific training.

 

what they had there can't even accurately be called a sweat lodge. It will be a real shame if he doesn't do jail time.

 

My sentiments exactly regarding jail time.

You are also absolutely right about the structure in Sedona not even being a proper sweat-lodge.

[Seth Ananda]

I have to say that the hottest Lodges i have been in were the traditional ones run by Native American elders. the first one ever that i went to was so hot that it split the skin on my scalp in many places. lol. I much prefer the new agey ones to that. These days I do them with friends who were trained (and given permission to run them) with Archie Fire Lame Deer and with a couple of other elders.

 

I Have to say that the Lodge I did after my Fathers passing was a profound aid to the grieving process. For unpacking emotional wounds the Lodge is excellent.

 

Unfortunately I knew the two people in Australia who have died in a Lodge.

 

One was bitten by a brown snake on the way in and thought it was a spider bite...

 

The Other was Human negligence... Friends who are/were very serious Lodgers, did an Intense period of fasting and lodging in the Australian desert, as they had done two years earlier. The Guy running it (not for money) unknowingly picked a site with bore water that (also unknown to him) was really high in salt. My Friend died while being helicoptered to hospital from Salt poisoning brought on by the fasting and Heat of the lodge...

 

They are not really that dangerous as long as you are careful, but do be careful.

 

A'ho Mitaque Oaysen!

[zen-bear]

I have to say that the hottest Lodges i have been in were the traditional ones run by Native American elders. the first one ever that i went to was so hot that it split the skin on my scalp in many places. lol. I much prefer the new agey ones to that. These days I do them with friends who were trained (and given permission to run them) with Archie Fire Lame Deer and with a couple of other elders.

 

I Have to say that the Lodge I did after my Fathers passing was a profound aid to the grieving process. For unpacking emotional wounds the Lodge is excellent.

 

Unfortunately I knew the two people in Australia who have died in a Lodge.

 

One was bitten by a brown snake on the way in and thought it was a spider bite...

 

The Other was Human negligence... Friends who are/were very serious Lodgers, did an Intense period of fasting and lodging in the Australian desert, as they had done two years earlier. The Guy running it (not for money) unknowingly picked a site with bore water that (also unknown to him) was really high in salt. My Friend died while being helicoptered to hospital from Salt poisoning brought on by the fasting and Heat of the lodge...

 

They are not really that dangerous as long as you are careful, but do be careful.

 

A'ho Mitaque Oaysen!

 

 

Absolutely, do be careful...

--and make sure your sweat is being run by someone very well trained, experienced, and sanctioned.

 

How awful about the two deaths in Australia that you were close to you.

The second death due to salt poisoning just sounds particularly "wrong" and "off" in terms of being conscious of the environment (feng-shui).

 

Are sweatlodges also a traditional practice of Australian aborigines? If so, I never knew that.

 

Thanks for the correct spelling of

 

A'ho Mitaque Oaysen!

[SeriesOfTubes]

Sorry to hear Seth about those deaths. sounds more like they would be attributed to the concerns of the harsh Australian environment.

 

I've "locked" several people in their altars, as a helper, for traditional vision quests in the past few years in the black hills and in minnesota. the sweats people do before and after vision quest are actually 1/2 sweats or "wipe downs" with fewer tunkasilas (grandfather stones). 1/2 completed before and 1/2 after the vision quest where they fast (no food no water).

 

yes people do fast (without food) on the day of the sweat but rarely, if ever, would they fast for long before that, and they are well hydrated on the day of the inipi, unlike with Hanblecha (vision quest).

 

so thats another thing that went wrong in Sedona, you don't typically do a full-on balls-to-the-wall sweat after a vision quest: several days no food, no water. Because vision quest is not an Inipi ceremony, it's Hanblecha (which includes wipe downs in a lodge, flesh offerings etc).

 

the words death and sweat lodge don't belong in the same sentence. Inipi is serious and does get screaming hot, some native elders don't give you 4 doors, but if the person has the right training, fulfilled a four year wiwayang wacipi commitment (Sundance) which is traditionally following four year vision quest. and is sanctioned to pour water, you should be more than OK.

 

A good acid test, if your not on a reservation, is finding out whether this person pouring water could get away with doing this ceremony the way they are doing it, on a real reservation. if the answer is no, then you should probably steer clear. There may be exceptions Im not clear on such as in other traditions with slightly different protocols like midewewin (ojibwe medicine society), nez pierce or in Dine country but Inipi (sweat lodge) is one of Lakota seven rites so you want to make sure what your doing is well grounded within tradition.

Edited January 15, 2010 by SeriesOfTubes