Is tonglen practice healthy?

[sean]

What's the word on tonglen?

 

[edit]Michael Winn specifically warns against it on one of his tapes saying that in his experience he has noticed the Tibetans have the highest incident of respiratory illness as a result of this practice. I will dig up the full quote later.

 

From Tonglen - 'Sending and Taking'

by Thrangu Rinpoche

"As one breathes out, imagine that with the exhalation out goes all one's happiness and all the causes of happiness, all the good karma that one has, in the form of white light rays. These light rays go out to all beings to touch them, so that they obtain present temporary happiness and the cause for the ultimate happiness of buddhahood.

 

With inhalation one imagines that all the suffering, the causes of suffering and the bad karma that beings have are drawn into oneself with the incoming breath, in the form of black light rays. These black rays enter and merge into oneself, so one thinks that one has taken on the suffering of all other beings. Thus this Sending & Taking meditation involves giving away happiness and taking on suffering, in combination with one's breathing."

 

From Transforming Confusion into Wisdom

by Pema Chodron

"Tonglen reverses the usual logic of avoiding suffering and seeking pleasure and, in the process, we become liberated from a very ancient prison of selfishness. We begin to feel love both for ourselves and others and also we being to take care of ourselves and others. It awakens our compassion and it also introduces us to a far larger view of reality. It introduces us to the unlimited spaciousness that Buddhists call shunyata. By doing the practice, we begin to connect with the open dimension of our being. At first we experience this as things not being such a big deal or so solid as they seemed before.

...

Use what seems like poison as medicine. Use your personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings."

 

From Compassion practices of Tonglen

By Christine Longaker

"The voice of your ego may warn you that Tonglen could "harm" you, but this is not true. The compassion practices are designed to unravel the selfish patterning of the ego and gradually reinforce your confidence in the radiant wisdom and compassion of your true nature, which is indestructible. Tonglen is a skillful training in a completely new way of being, in which you begin to develop a limitless, fearless and unbiased compassion toward all creation. One key to attaining enlightenment is to develop your compassion so profoundly that you come to love and cherish all other beings more than yourself.

 

Thus although at first the Tonglen practice appears to be a courageous response to the suffering of others, you will find that training in compassion is actually benefiting you and bringing you further along the path to liberation.

 

The Tonglen practices may also enable you to:

Bring difficulties and illness onto your spiritual path

Heal your past and present suffering

Prevent or relieve burnout

Transform your relationship with others"

 

...

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

 

Sean

[Yoda]

try it and see. When I've used it, I've liked it, but that was awhile back. I don't use it consistently. But there's nothing better when you have a long term relationship with somebody that is getting negative and you just can't chuck them out of your life. Mentally bowing to them and writing down their positive aspects are the other good techniques, but tonglen is possibly the strongest. There's a tonglen website out there that focuses on Trungpa and Osho and a couple of other dudes with a side by side commentary of the original text. I'll post a link if I can find it.

 

very easy to find:

 

http://lojongmindtraining.com/

 

 

 

I'm sure it can make a good relationship even better, but I've never tried that.

 

to quote Osho:

 

And you will be surprised if you do it. The moment you take all the sufferings of the world inside you, they are no longer sufferings. The heart immediately transforms the energy. The heart is a transforming force: drink in misery, and it is transformed into blissfulness... then pour it out.

 

Once you have learned that your heart can do this magic, this miracle, you would like to do it again and again. Try it. It is one of the most practical methods - simple, and it brings immediate results. Do it today, and see.

[Trunk]

Well, Michael was exploring the pause, and the Tibetans are inhaling suffering etc, so those are really two different breathing practices.

 

Just to comment on the method that Michael was exploring, he took it to an extreme. Re-read how long he did it: he went way way way far with it. imo, exploring the pauses is very beneficial (try it), but in moderation, much smaller doses than Michael did back in the wild day.

[karen]

Couple of thoughts.

 

One, it's not correct to assume that symptoms = disease. Respiratory symptoms can sometimes be part of a healing reaction from releasing grief. Just hearing that someone had respiratory symptoms doesn't tell enough to know whether it's a disease process or a healing process.

 

(I had respiratory symptoms the past month that were no disease at all. I didn't use the word "sick," which helped )

 

Second, maybe a practice is not inherently right or wrong but suitable or unsuitable for a particular student at a particular time.

 

The sense of inhaling suffering can mean very different things to different people. I often have experiences (just a few mintues ago of going deeply into my direct perception of something in order to penetrate to its real nature. A sense of suffering can come from layers of interpretive thought superimposed on or blocking the actual direct experience. And often when there's suffering, the person is quite out of touch with what their real core level experience is. Then, focusing on the actual perception often opens up the blockage and leads to experiencing it completely differently.

 

That could be thought of as "breathing in" the suffering and transforming it. It may be similar to doing EFT, where you're acknowledging the condition as you interpret it, and from there you peel away the interpretive false beliefs to experience the purity of the feeling at the core of it.

 

"Suffering" and "compassion" are just concepts. I'd rather penetrate to real experience. Maybe one person would get hung up in the concepts, and for another it may be "skillful means" to work with the concepts in order to go beyond them. The point, I think, is that the practice is just a tool, and may not be right or wrong on its own terms. If it's helping to take the person beyond it, cool.

 

Karen

[Yoda]

I just posted the tonglen question on ayp, I'm curious as to what they'd say about it.

[sean]

Well, Michael was exploring the pause, and the Tibetans are inhaling suffering etc, so those are really two different breathing practices.

 

Just to comment on the method that Michael was exploring, he took it to an extreme. Re-read how long he did it: he went way way way far with it. imo, exploring the pauses is very beneficial (try it), but in moderation, much smaller doses than Michael did back in the wild day.

Ooops! I posted the wrong Winn quote. I did a quick copy and paste without reading it carefully. I'll try to dig up the real quote he had on tonglen practice later.

 

Yoda, nice link.

 

Sean

[sean]

One, it's not correct to assume that symptoms = disease. Respiratory symptoms can sometimes be part of a healing reaction from releasing grief.

...

Second, maybe a practice is not inherently right or wrong but suitable or unsuitable for a particular student at a particular time.

...

The sense of inhaling suffering can mean very different things to different people. I often have experiences (just a few mintues ago of going deeply into my direct perception of something in order to penetrate to its real nature.

Great distinctions Karen. Really love this post.

 

I also brought up my concerns with Lezlie today and she mentioned another great point. If you go all the way with each practice of tonglen to include the entire manifest world, then that also naturally includes you the practioner; inhaling your own little-self's suffering into Big Heart, exhaling the Light of True Self outward through It's manifestations which little-self is, again, also a part of. What's so cool about bringing tonglen to this level of non-dualistic awareness (emptiness) each session is that you are treating "I" and "manifest world" as One. Seems like a beautiful way to introduce selflessness blissfully and I imagine this would also help bypass the narcissism of "I am saving everyone" and the melancholy of "I am taking on all of the world's suffering and giving away all of my happiness".

 

Good stuff, I'm sold. I'll tack on a few minutes of tonglen after my daily meditation sandwiches each day and see how it goes.

 

Sean

[karen]

Seems like a beautiful way to introduce selflessness blissfully and I imagine this would also help bypass the narcissism of "I am saving everyone" and the melancholy of "I am taking on all of the world's suffering and giving away all of my happiness".

Sean

 

Excellent. But I wouldn't be concerned about introducing something or bypassing something. You just keep allowing whatever you experience, and every time an interpretive thought or expectation comes up, notice it, allow the experience. Just another take on vipassana, really.

 

Karen

[Yoda]

I asked Yogani for his take on tonglen:

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=772

[sean]

Excellent. But I wouldn't be concerned about introducing something or bypassing something. You just keep allowing whatever you experience, and every time an interpretive thought or expectation comes up, notice it, allow the experience. Just another take on vipassana, really.

These are words I cannot be reminded of often enough ... great advice, thank you Karen.

I asked Yogani for his take on tonglen:

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=772

Awesome Yoda. I hadn't seen that heart technique of his yet.

 

...

 

As I mentioned in another thread, today during tonglen practice I spontaneously starting giving away my stored jing. Just letting it come into Big Heart and steam into chi that I sent out to suffering beings everywhere. It was powerful and I felt a physical release of congestion in my LTT and genitals. I am not sure what it's implications are yet, but as Karen has advised I am not going to overanalyze this (yet), instead just letting it happen and see where it goes.

 

Sean

[thaddeus]

Good stuff, I'm sold. I'll tack on a few minutes of tonglen after my daily meditation sandwiches each day and see how it goes.

 

Sean

Hi Sean, this is a great inquiry. Regarding negative effects, just a reminder that it's your intention that creates your experience. Not sure why Winn is making such statements.

T

[sean]

Hi Sean, this is a great inquiry. Regarding negative effects, just a reminder that it's your intention that creates your experience. Not sure why Winn is making such statements.

T

 

I asked my acupuncturist about this and she said the same thing about intention. I think part of Winn's point on the tape was that tonglen and many other traditions put nearly all of the weight of transformation on the Lung spirit and at best delegate some to the Heart as well whereas Taoist Alchemy identifies how all of the organs can be brought into the game and given a balanced workload so one organ doesn't feel overburdened. Maybe the respiratory issues amongst Tibetans was highly anecdotal (fish tale), I think he was probably just trying to stress the importance of balance and bringing your full body-mind into the enlightenment game, not just relying on any one part alone. It's Winn's thesis in a way and a valuable contribution IMO.

[Yoda]

My penis just tried tonglen and he loves it!

 

Made him feel strong, compassionate, and sexy.

[Trunk]

Purdee-innerestun'thred, ah-rekun.

Reminds me u' them thar times uh-while bahk, when.. (gotta switch outta accent)

 

Someone talked about absorbing qi from others, and giving back compassion, throughout the day. Not vampirously, but just instead of basic looking, you know? I forget who and where.. it might be in my site, I'm not sure where. Also sbiel talked about giving away one's virtue and essence.

 

Both of these mentions.. I don't know, rang a bell some how. And I don't think I've gotten deep enough with this one. So, back to my original point: innerestun'thred.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Trunk

[Smile]

Buddha taught that after meditation it's a good thing to offer all the merit of this meditation to all the sentient beings, visible and invisible, so they also can find peace and happiness.

[Yoda]

Buddha taught that after meditation it's a good thing to offer all the merit of this meditation to all the sentient beings, visible and invisible, so they also can find peace and happiness.

 

Along the same lines, if you give away your merit it magnifies the merit and, interestingly, "protects" it from being dissipated from negative impulses.

 

That ties in with what Sean and S. Biel say about steaming and giving away the jing to prevent subsequent loss.

 

-Yoda

[Yoda]

Hey, I was just driving around with a crying two year old--it was the perfect opportunity to try out the whole tonglen thing.

 

I tried the normal tonglen drill out of my heart center and it sucked. I kept wondering if there was anything I could do to make him stop crying.

 

Then I did tonglen through my ass and it worked wonders. My three lower chakras especially the root and sex center ***really*** don't give a shit so they can transform the energy without getting emotional or tripped up in the complicated storyline.

 

Suddenly I couldn't care less what he was doing and my vibration immediately became happy and radiant and soon he became influenced by my raised mood and he stopped crying too.

[mbanu]

If you want to practice tonglen, you can get the same effect without side effects by practicing it externally. Take up a hobby of producing things that you enjoy and that take a lot of effort to make, such as model airplanes, woven baskets, tasty food, etc. Make sure that they are just right, and that you are deeply satisfied with them. It is best if you put a part of your self in their creation, and value them as you value yourself. Then after putting all that work and effort into them, destroy them. Step on the airplane, dump the food in the garbage uneaten. Sometimes this can be more effective if if you have a friend destroy your things, especially unexpectedly while you witness it. This way you don't create them with the ideas of them being sacrifices, and their loss has a more intense effect.

Edited February 10, 2006 by mbanu

[sean]

If you want to practice tonglen, you can get the same effect without side effects by practicing it externally. Take up a hobby of producing things that you enjoy and that take a lot of effort to make, such as model airplanes, woven baskets, tasty food, etc. Make sure that they are just right, and that you are deeply satisfied with them. It is best if you put a part of your self in their creation, and value them as you value yourself. Then after putting all that work and effort into them, destroy them. Step on the airplane, dump the food in the garbage uneaten. Sometimes this can be more effective if if you have a friend destroy your things, especially unexpectedly while you witness it. This way you don't create them with the ideas of them being sacrifices, and their loss has a more intense effect.

Awwwe man, I was so excited at first because I thought you were going to say that you then take this beautiful creation and give it to, like, a stranger or something. I could see how destroying it could have some value, but what about flipping open the yellow pages and putting your finger on a random person and then packing up this awesome gift you made and mailing it to them anonymously? Damn though, what a cool concept mbanu. External tonglen. Thanks for posting that.

 

Sean

[Mal]

BTT

 

An old TongLin thread that I found.

 

Was discussing this practice with regards to heling and sick qi in the Spring Forrest thread

[Vajrasattva]

only if you know what you are doing....& if you have transmission

[Birch]

I tried it a while back. At the time I could hardly muster a metta without blubbing ;-)

 

I agree that it must come at the "right" time for each person. I think it unlikely that someone who is not already practicing some form of awareness or who was "read up" on techniques would be the best candidate. I wouldn't suggest this one for a first meditation;-)

 

I could be wrong as always...