involuntary celibacy and isolation

[Pietro]

[That Guy]

This is very interesting. First of all many animals that we believed being monogamous seem to chat themselves too. Do you know about birds who sing to attract a mate, right. Well, in many cases they keep on singing even after having found the mate. Why do it? Since it puts them at risk of being eaten by predators? Because in this way they are raising the chances that they will reproduce also with someone else. This is some of the results that are coming out of genetic studies on animals. We did not know about it before.

 

To me it blew my mind when I read it the first time. AT the time I believed that we should have gone back to a natural harmony state. The discovery that animals chat too was a big blow to the philosophical framework that led me to reconsider the whole structure.

Well just because it has a partner doesn't mean he should stop singing, he needs to keep his current bird happy Just like if you get a gf or get married you shouldn't stop speaking to other women, and you have to work to keep your current mate happy.

But do they know the bird is singing just to attract mates?

 

And back in the past, I would guess, men with the real superior genes would get the women, which meant the women would not cheat since she knew she had the best man around and he'd give her those bad ass genes.

Maybe it's just because of the times women can actually feel safer with men who don't have the best genes but have a good steady job. However they still crave some alpha male genes for their babies and cheat, so it might not be that having 1 partner is unnatural, but that the safer choice of partners these days doesn't give them what they naturally want in genes.

Edited January 24, 2010 by That Guy

[Non]

Thanks, another book to put in my to read list.

 

My main source on this discussion has been Matt Ridley The red Queen effect. Please let me quote something from it:

 

 

 

 

Speaking about the comparison with other species, there is also some interesting studies in the following pages (up to page 188, if you are following along). And the interesting conclusions reached are that:

 

 

 

 

So the situation described is that we are a promiscuous species. Not completely promiscuous. Not completely monogamous. Not completely poligamous either. So there is nothing wrong in learning how to play the game of seduction.

 

Now the question comes, but what if you do not want to play the game. Can't you just step out of it? If you mean by this to become a monk, yes, you surely can. But if you mean by this that you just want to be monogamous, and expect your women to be so as well...

 

well, have you ever heard of winning strategies, and losing strategies? You can try. And there is a probability that you will succeed. In fact many people are trying. And many are saying that they are trying while trying to seduce their neighbor while the husband neighbor is distracted.

 

Non said before: I don't know how many people are being unfaithful in this society. Well, I can tell because also this is in Matt Ridley book. It looks like the number of people who were not born from who they thought their father was is staggering high. And more interestingly it looks like it does not sensibly change respect to the social class or the culture.

 

 

 

 

If you sum this with the information from the other article (not a scientific article, I admit, but still interesting) that women seem to be better off in lying than men, the result is that by choosing to be in a monogamous relationship you are essentially risking to set yourself up for genetic suicide.

 

Isn't this a bit set up by a fear based mentality of imperfection? That we must always struggle, and be at war and conflict within ourselves, etc. What if again like I said before, Nature isn't what you think it is, ie, inherently cruel.

 

I think things may have just been set up the way it has been on earth, but that doesn't mean that it was inherent in nature. Nature was just the conduit for this situation. It allowed it to happen, but did nature determine it, or did we?

 

Not to say that we can't do what we have to, to survive. But I think it's wrong to think that, this is nature, or with such absolutism.

 

Or somehting..

Edited January 24, 2010 by Non

[Non]

Oh yea and about the birds singing.

 

It's kind of contradictory. but that's sexual selection... a type of sexual selection, intra-sexual selection.

 

It doesn't as much as intersexual selection where females choose the mates that survive best or are more adapt. In intra-sexual selection, they select their mates based on competition with other males of their same species, ie whether one can fight the hardest to overcome the next male, or sing the loudest, to get to her first, etc.

 

Or just choosing the mate that is the 'sexiest' to her.

 

Whatever that means.

 

But when it comes to 'natural selection', then it doesn't really say that this male is the best adapted for survival. It simply means he knows how to get a mate which has to do with survival but only in the aspect of procreation.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Non

[Non]

Well just because it has a partner doesn't mean he should stop singing, he needs to keep his current bird happy Just like if you get a gf or get married you shouldn't stop speaking to other women, and you have to work to keep your current mate happy.

But do they know the bird is singing just to attract mates?

 

And back in the past, I would guess, men with the real superior genes would get the women, which meant the women would not cheat since she knew she had the best man around and he'd give her those bad ass genes.

Maybe it's just because of the times women can actually feel safer with men who don't have the best genes but have a good steady job. However they still crave some alpha male genes for their babies and cheat, so it might not be that having 1 partner is unnatural, but that the safer choice of partners these days doesn't give them what they naturally want in genes.

 

Well sure, times are changing. We no longer have to be violent towards each other all the time. So if she's missing the cavemen of the ancient days, it's because cavemen were outgrown.

 

But people still revert back to it because they cling to the fearful things.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Non

[Pietro]

Well just because it has a partner doesn't mean he should stop singing, he needs to keep his current bird happy Just like if you get a gf or get married you shouldn't stop speaking to other women, and you have to work to keep your current mate happy.

But do they know the bird is singing just to attract mates?

Which part of "genetic studies on animals" did you not get? By checking the genetic material they could find that cuckoldry was present also in birds.

And back in the past, I would guess, men with the real superior genes would get the women, which meant the women would not cheat since she knew she had the best man around and he'd give her those bad ass genes.

Maybe it's just because of the times women can actually feel safer with men who don't have the best genes but have a good steady job. However they still crave some alpha male genes for their babies and cheat, so it might not be that having 1 partner is unnatural, but that the safer choice of partners these days doesn't give them what they naturally want in genes.

No, that never happened. The alpha males have always been a rare commodity. There is always the best ones, and they are usually very few. This is why it makes sense for the female to take the genetic material of the alpha, and the time (and money) of the beta. Go around with women and ask them which men would they have sex with and which would they marry. It is a silly game, but it has a deep implication. The men they really want to fuck are rarely the one they want to marry. And you know why? (I asked them, that's why I know). Because those men are not going to be faithful. With all the women wanting to have sex with them, they will betray them. So women needed to learn how to cheat, and needed to evolve to be able to do it in the best way. Without feeling guilt, for example.

[Pietro]

Isn't this a bit set up by a fear based mentality of imperfection? That we must always struggle, and be at war and conflict within ourselves, etc. What if again like I said before, Nature isn't what you think it is, ie, inherently cruel.

 

I think things may have just been set up the way it has been on earth, but that doesn't mean that it was inherent in nature. Nature was just the conduit for this situation. It allowed it to happen, but did nature determine it, or did we?

 

Not to say that we can't do what we have to, to survive. But I think it's wrong to think that, this is nature, or with such absolutism.

 

Or somehting..

 

Non, you sound quite confused. Why don't you just wait a second. Take a cup of tea. ANd clarify your mind. Then you write a single post, with what you want to say.

[markern]

Non - would it seem weird to you if I said that to me, you are confident? - in fact you're so confident you're actually rather arrogant.

 

I know you don't see it that way, and probably many of the concerned Bums don't see it that way either, but I do.

 

You have unshakable confidence in yourself as a hopeless case... arrogance involves ignoring everyone and their opinions and sticking to yours. Confidence involves being certain. Being certain and ignoring everyone is what you do here... by denying our attempts to help, you're bolstering your own self image as someone special - someone so unique that no one even understands you, let alone has enough insight to help...

 

What you're doing here is nothing more than re-asserting that you are who you 'are' - and you're not going to change and the world is a shithole coz it won't change to how you want it to be.

 

From deep inside, though, there is an honest, vulnerable part of you that's hoping and wishing that your ego lets go for just a fraction of a second so that you can feel real intimacy - not contrived, controlled intimacy that's been forced through the tiny mold that your ego has built for you.

 

The way to progress is to drop this idea that you're unique and special and like no other... because once you do, reality will come flooding in, energising your spirit and you'll discover your true uniqueness that you've not even began to experience yet - a part of you that is far greater and more magnificent than you can imagine. Let go of your certainty, your arrogance - put your opinions, beliefs and ideas to one side then smile at a stranger - not because you want something from them, not because it will prove something about you, not expecting them to even notice - but smile coz you feel like smiling.

 

Get this CD (Jack Elias is great - he's even written an article for us TBs) and listen to it daily for at least a month - it will help release the stuckness around being with people.

 

Damn that was a good post! Best advice I have seen in a loooong time

[That Guy]

Which part of "genetic studies on animals" did you not get? By checking the genetic material they could find that cuckoldry was present also in birds.

The part where you actually mentioned what they did in the genetic studies to know the birds were from different parents but conceived whilst the birds were already coupled together

 

ANYWAY, you can hump whatever you want, but if you have some sort of agreement to be faithful to another person, then cheating is wrong. If she said it and not swore it, then she mislead/lied to you, so it's still wrong. And look up "Dick Masterson", you'll probably dig his stuff too

Wither way if that's how you see women it must be based on how all women you've known are, and maybe someday if you meet one that changes your mind so be it. Keep enjoying getting laid with 8+ women.

 

I just have 1 last question, should you ever get married and your wife cheats on you with another guy, what would your reaction be?

"Well thats cool honey, he must have had better genes, its natural and not your fault. Heres my credit card, go do some shopping "

[Enishi]

 

"Well thats cool honey, he must have had better genes, its natural and not your fault. Heres my credit card, go do some shopping "

 

ROFL.

 

My thoughts exactly. I think the monogamous nuclear family has it's set of problems (most cultures have been extended families and clans) but I don't like the opposite of extreme promiscuity either. We may have animal programming, but we have the capacity for long term planning and altruism as well. There needs to be a balance between the too.I couldn't see myself ever sleeping with a married woman behind the husband's back unless I KNEW he was an abusive monster, and especially not if I was friends with the guy. Hell no!

Edited January 24, 2010 by Enishi

[Pietro]

[That Guy]

[Non]

I dont even think 'jealousy' sums it up well enough. It strikes me to the core of my being as disrespect and a undermining of a principle. I just couldn't imagine my girl doing someone else. It would make me cringe actually. This is me bein honest though.

 

But somehow I also see it as act violent act. I see it like... a violation. I also kind of fear it. In the sense that I just couldn't imagine my girl being Brutally Banged HardCore, (and in most cases, it is hardcore, and brutal), by some Enemy of mine, or some big scary heartless man.

 

I think it's more than simple jealousy I feel. I also feel a need to protect her.

 

And if she likes being brutally banged by another, I would also feel insulted. I dont think she could bang another guy while at the same time demeaning myself, or her image of me. Ie, at the same time, thinking less of me, or in spite of me.

 

At the same time, being deceived by another to uphold him as superior than I. It feels cruel, no matter how else I could try to view it.

 

While the other guy is just laughing, and not respecting, or taking it serious. In fact, probably not caring about her.

 

I guess.

 

But then again, I view sex as a sort of agressive and vicious act. Sexuality as being like.. cruel, or morbid in a sense. I see sex as violent, or crude. As deviant.

 

It might also have to do with the way I grew up, in a society that Views Sex as taboo, deviant, and the like. Such that sexuality is corrupted.Not that I necessarily view it that way, but since others do, that would be the reason they look for sex, ie, to do something "bad", to "fuck hardcore", to "violate", to "make her cry masochistically", etc.A brutal mixture of pleasure and pain, and bdsm

Edited January 24, 2010 by Non

[Non]

but just think about it.

 

Look at pornography. How does it affect our culture? it makes sex to be a devious and taboo thing. And it glorifies defiance and violation of the human body with lust and crude desire.

 

One has to be kind of remorseless to partake in this act.

 

Look at the animls, when they "fuck" they don't usually do it in love do they? Sometimes the female feels pain afterwards. Or the male feels like he needs to Pin Her Down.

 

Now some of us humans actually do it in love. BUt for a majority of animals, they feel they need to compete for it, and to fight for it. SO in itself, it makes it an aggressive act. An aggressive attempt to take love, or companionship. Or to take a sexual partner. To feel wanted. Because that doesn't come around often right? And there's this NAgging feeling that doesn't go away, of wanting to feel loved. In the sexual organs anyway. And it's aggressive, or at least when it's scarce.

[Non]

Has anyone ever thouight that this Isn't really Nature?

 

That nature is just indifferent, but it was set up by another being? Perhaps extraterrestrials? or some kind of hyperversal that has set up our universe. With this wicked cruel "nature" that is not nature, it's just simply indifferent?

 

So why does nature have to be cruel? It doesnt.

[Non]

is nature the playing field or the players in Life?

 

Has anyone thought of this?

 

When people think of nature, they think of Earth. But they also view earth as being inanimate, or without life. Like rocks with no soul or spirit.

 

Or is nature Life, ie the living organisms?

 

If so, then anyways, nature is just Nature. It's what's in it's NAture to be Nature. Which can change. And is indifferent. So what is NAture then?

 

And just because other animals behave a certain way, does that make it justified?

Edited January 24, 2010 by Non

[Guest paul walter]

is nature the playing field or the players in Life?

 

Has anyone thought of this?

 

When people think of nature, they think of Earth. But they also view earth as being inanimate, or without life. Like rocks with no soul or spirit.

 

Or is nature Life, ie the living organisms?

 

If so, then anyways, nature is just Nature. It's what's in it's NAture to be Nature. Which can change. And is indifferent. So what is NAture then?

 

And just because other animals behave a certain way, does that make it justified?

 

 

Non, you can't go on this way without driving yourself nuts. You need a holiday from your own mind. Leave college, get away from your dad, stay away from the written word... If you can't see yourself in some way by now from all the people who have interacted with your posts recently then it is time to give up trying to find answers to every question. Do you know how fractals work?--that's what you're mind is doing to your mind. This is a taoist/buddhist website--make use of these eminently helpful concepts that have lasted thousands of years for good reason and which people use all the time on here. Of course it entails looking at the 'self' ,death of the ego and all that...Knowledge has its place but without wisdom (which comes from knowing the self in context) it is more of a hinderance than a help. In faith, Paul.

[Spectrum]

Someone needs to slap sense directly into your soul.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Spectrum

[Immortal4life]

I don't do PUA stuff.

 

I had bad experiences with PUA material, and believe me in high school I tried it.

 

I was successful in getting interest from girls but I figured it was shallow, so I stopped. Figured most people are shallow anyways.

 

The end.

 

I am convcinced that a lot of the PUA stuff out there is really great. Even if you don't use the specific PUA programs, understanding the basic fundamentals of it will help your life.

 

What was your bad experience?

 

If the world is shallow to you Non....why should you be the one who pays the price? Stop worrying about these kind of things. If they are shallow, punish them for it. Don't be the loser, be the winner.

 

Turn about is fair play. Show them who can truly be the most superficial. It's better than staying where you are at currently.

[Green Tiger]

when I saw the title of this thread my first thought was "World of Warcraft addicts?"

[paulno]

Non, has your condition improved any? Please, give us an update. Hope you're doing better.

[Sloppy Zhang]

when I saw the title of this thread my first thought was "World of Warcraft addicts?"

 

I dunno.

 

I have a friend who plays World of Warcraft a lot. He says there's this decently attractive girl in his group (in an emo kind of way), who likes to challenge herself..... so she invites guys over to fuck her as she is playing World of Warcraft.

 

Either she's really good, or the guys are really bad, because my friend says her game performance never goes down I'm sure the dudes are pretty happy- they get sex AND a gamer girl!

[Desert Eagle]

This thread looks like it was before him lashing out on all females and getting suspended for it. I have involuntary celibacy but my isolation is semi-voluntary. Though I can live with it for the time being and not feel sad, you need to interact with humans to live in a society (being around others gives me a lot of energy). I follow in Drew's thinking and I add that to have a lead on manipulating your emotions through your body is better than what you are/were going through.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Desert Eagle