1 Glass of Wine?

[Taomeow]

My sister-in-law (MD working in pharmacology) swears by hard liquor -- apparently the benefits are even greater, it's a potent telomerase inhibitor. Telomerase is an enzyme that facilitates telomere shortening. The lay term for "telomere shortening" is "death."

 

Long as you don't "need" a drink, all is good. If you "need" it, don't drink. If you don't, remind yourself how good it is for you. I have to remind myself, because I have no natural desire for alcohol, but I try to remember to have something with my dinner. (I don't believe in drinking anything on an empty stomach, by the way. The benefits might be canceled by too-fast absorption into the bloodstream and that's hard on the brain and the liver.)

[glooper23]

Well...life is full of individual experience (and collective experience as well). So if someone on this forum was, say, rather small and of a certain genetic background, lacking the liver enzymes to process the alcohol (aldhehydedehydrogenase, cytochrome P 450); spirits in even minute doses would be toxic. However, someone else here may be male 200 lbs low body fat, high tolerance etc. and then even two 3 oz. glasses would not effect their cognitive function. Of course, there are other factors as well, but I'm boring myself with this post...

 

Fantastic post. Thank you.

 

Something strange happened to me last night that I've yet to share. I suppose I'm not sure if it's just a random event or not. If it's legit, it has completely changed my life, including my view on this topic.

 

I'm currently think the very asking of this question is a waste of time.

[Kameel]

It's legit...but the challenge is the transformation. Good Luck.

[Sarnyn]

Meditation and toxic substances mutually exclude each other - coffee, cigarettes, alcohol, pot, heroin etc

that seems like an overreaching statement. Nothing can be taken into the body which doesn't alter it, or else there wouldn't be any need to take anything in. Yet, the body does have a need. But beyond the body, there are the needs of the mind, or spirit, which are more elusive. The kind of alteration then, seems to be a matter of preference. What is a good alteration, and what is a bad one, and according to what standards? If the purification of the body and mind, is a goal, what is the definition of "pure" and who decided on that standard? But... what IS the standard we observe? harmony? Longevity? Personal Power? Will? or perhaps nothing but discrimination?

 

Being a cultivator, in my mind, is a lot like being a gardener. What you choose to put in your garden, of course is a matter of a self expression.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Sarnyn

[Guest paul walter]

I think I'll join you. I usually have a glass with dinner. Statistically those who imbibe a glass or 2 a day have fewer heart problems and live longer. A glass of wine is actually a potent tonic, tastes good too.

 

 

Michael

 

A few months ago the 'science' on the two glasses a day for good health sort of thing was updated to: two glasses a day of red wine is actually very bad for you. Que sera sera. Alcohol is an acid forming compound which most people can do without in terms of their health. Boiling off the alcohol is better. Also the use of alcohols in the distant past would have been much different from our habits of going to the bottle shop-there would have been potent ingredients (herbs/barks/berries etc) and processes that made the drinks more 'medicinal' than what passes for alcohol today in most cultures. For those who need alcohol to relax I suggest meditation/walking as an alternative. Paul

[Bum Grasshopper]

For those who need alcohol to relax I suggest meditation/walking as an alternative. Paul

I need alcohol to get laid!

[宁]

Yet, the body does have a need.

 

Yes.

The body 'needs' things that got used to. And your habits are supposed to serve you, not the other way around.

 

I think we need to make a bit of a radical opinion, because people are misinformed.

We often see titles of threads as:

Tao and alcohol

Tao and marijuanna

Tao and masturbation

...

 

People think Tao is a general term that defines an impersonal 'entity' that will accept all of their vices too.

To my understanding, nothing can be further from the truth.

Tao has alot of rules, they are the rules of nature. If you break social rules, you may or may not pay.

Yet if you break the rules of nature, you will surely produce undesired effects.

 

You are right about gardening. You can't expect to sow thorns and reap lillies

[Sarnyn]

Yes.

The body 'needs' things that got used to. And your habits are supposed to serve you, not the other way around.

I agree with you 100% that our habits should be cultivated to serve us, and I also agree with your statement that the body learns to need things that it has gotten used too... that statement isn't perfect but it is good enough for the present discussion. (the body cannot due without, for instance, oxygen, or water, or atmospheric pressure. The body is dependent upon the condition of it's environment for its continued existence, and those things are not created out of habit, but the body is dependent upon them based ion its physiology, and based on the interdependent nature of all phenomenon. This extends to all things.)

 

However, the ingestion of wine, or other forms of alcohol, or of ritual hallucinogens for example don't have to be habitual simply because they are ingested. Further, and more importantly, the forgone conclusion that if they are habitual, that habit cannot be made to serve us as you suggest, seems to be a hasty one.

[宁]

the forgone conclusion that if they are habitual, that habit cannot be made to serve us as you suggest, seems to be a hasty one.

 

Can you account for masters and practicioners that use drugs and alcohol to serve for awareness enhancement

(other than shamanic tribes who use various herbs - their environment and lifestyle are very different from ours, so they are out of our discussion)...

I really am interested in hearing your opinion, thank you.

[Sarnyn]

Can you account for masters and practicioners that use drugs and alcohol to serve for awareness enhancement

(other than shamanic tribes who use various herbs - their environment and lifestyle are very different from ours, so they are out of our discussion)...

I really am interested in hearing your opinion, thank you.

 

I would point toward the various schools of western occultism, such as the Chaos Magic of Peter Carol and the occult teachings and writings of his progenitor, Austin Osmond Spare for one, Aleister Crowley to name another, then I would consider such western figures who have adapted shamanistic practices of this kind to a western sensibility, such as Carlos Castaneda. Teachers such as Aldous Huxley and his doors of perception should not be ignored. I could list more (such as Bill Whitcomb), but I don't think that simply concocting a list of names will be persuasive for anybody reading, or yourself.

 

What I can say is that in my own experience, the measured, careful use of ritual hallucinogens has been personally useful. But I should add to that that before I ever utilized any hallucinogens I already had something like 10 years or so of meditation practice (specifically vippassana) under my belt and already had strong tools in place to help me negotiate those experiences in a way that has been constructive, not destructive to my practice. The reason I feel it has been useful, is by reinforcing the kind of first hand experiences gained through normal meditation, whereby the limitations of the sense organs is understood, and the way that these limitations shape and inform our personal reality is more assuredly integrated with our everyday consciousness. But again, I don't think that a personal anecdote like this will be especially persuasive either, and I should also express that such methods should not be entertained recklessly and without substantial preparation, in the form a an ongoing and significant meditation practice, specifically, and kind of practice like Vippassana, where the senses sensations of the body are the primarily trans-formative vehicle. Only a practice such as that (a meditative practice focusing on the senses), will prepare a person to successfully navigate the use of ritual hallucinogens without the assistance of a skillful shaman or mentor. It is also, not necessary, as the limitations of the senses and the implications that raises about objective reality can be ascertained from meditation. However, ritual hallucinogens can be a useful aid for adequately prepared individuals. But again, I don't suspect that my personal opinion here will be particularly persuasive.

 

My goal here isn't really to convince you that I am right, because I make my statements conditionally, as I wouldn't recommend these kinds of practices to 99% of people out there. My only goal here is to challenge the affirmation that such practices cannot be useful. Its a subtle distinction I know, but I think you feel where I am coming from.

 

with metta,

 

Sarnyn

[Sarnyn]

duplicate post

Edited January 20, 2010 by Sarnyn

[宁]

My only goal here is to challenge the affirmation that such practices cannot be useful. Its a subtle distinction I know, but I think you feel where I am coming from.

 

with metta,

 

Sarnyn

 

I know they could work in a specific context.

What worries me thou is the general rush to exhalt the use and abuse of toxics, and connect them with taoism... and meditation.

 

So I think we kind of agree with most that we discussed...

 

Good luck

 

L1

[suninmyeyes]

What would you say about having a glass of wine every day? Especially wines high in antioxidants like resveratrol?

 

Presuming I never drink more than one drink a day, is this bad?

antioxidants are obtainable through other foods or supplements.also good breathing tehnicques.

if you fancy a glass to change emotional mood as thats why most people drink have one if you are sure you can abide in awarness at the same time.its doable,BUT by very few,and i do admire those who can be SO intensly aware.

personaly i tend to agree with what L1 said about keeping the body pure and alchohol being anaesthtic.clean ,well functional system means less reparing to do ,life force circulates easier and your life becomes you lover not a rape victim.

[Sarnyn]

What worries me thou is the general rush to exhalt the use and abuse of toxics, and connect them with taoism... and meditation

 

That is a legitimate concern, and I agree with you 100%

 

now I am going to make a horrible analogy. To me wanting to use a hallucinogen connected with the context of a meditation practice without already being strongly grounded in those practices is like showing up to karate class and wanting to free spar on the first day. You don't know enough for the free sparring to help you. You need to spend enough time learning the fundamentals and building your leg strength in the horse stance, so that you will have a firm system in place to refine through sparring.

 

Especially if you don't have a teacher. It would be like trying to learn Kung Fu by walking down the street and randomly attacking old women.