Soto Zen Buddhism and The Afterllife

[secularfuture]

I've been looking into Soto Zen Buddhism, and so far I've been very impressed with what I've found. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, was a great spiritual teacher, and Zazen Meditation looks like a very practical way to transcend the limits of dualistic thinking.

 

I haven't been able to find a clear answer on what Soto Zen says about death and the afterlife, however. Does the Soto Zen Buddhist (or any kind of Zen Buddhist) believe in rebirth, heaven and hell realms, etc?

Edited January 18, 2010 by secularfuture

[~jK~]

I've been looking into Soto Zen Buddhism, and so far I've been very impressed with what I've found. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, was a great spiritual teacher, and Zazen Meditation looks like a very practical way to transcend the limits of dualistic thinking.

 

I haven't been able to find a clear answer on what Soto Zen says about death and the afterlife, however. Does the Soto Zen Buddhist (or any kind of Zen Buddhist) believe in rebirth, heaven and hell realms, etc?

What I see in Buddhist philosophy is that Buddhism is largely about being able to die with a clear conscience.

 

If you look far enough into it - you will find that reincarnation is a reality based on science.

[secularfuture]

What I see in Buddhist philosophy is that Buddhism is largely about being able to die with a clear conscience.

 

If you look far enough into it - you will find that reincarnation is a reality based on science.

I can almost believe in rebirth.

 

But what about the heaven and hell realms, and the realms of the hungry ghosts, and so on? Do Soto Zen Buddhists believe in these things?

[Gerard]

It is not about believing but experiencing it. If it is meant to be you may experience rebirth in this very lifetime.

 

Buddhism is the practical philosophy about getting out of the rebirth eternal cycle.

[Mark Foote]

I've been looking into Soto Zen Buddhism, and so far I've been very impressed with what I've found. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, was a great spiritual teacher, and Zazen Meditation looks like a very practical way to transcend the limits of dualistic thinking.

 

I haven't been able to find a clear answer on what Soto Zen says about death and the afterlife, however. Does the Soto Zen Buddhist (or any kind of Zen Buddhist) believe in rebirth, heaven and hell realms, etc?

 

Like that answer about experience; here's a story:

 

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai", the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" sneered Hakuin, "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? You look like a beggar".

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword.

Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably to dull to cut off my head."

Nobushige drew his sword.

Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, put away his sword and bowed.

"Here open the gates of paradise", said Hakuin.

From 'Zen flesh, Zen bones'

 

 

About spirits and hungry ghosts, my only source is "Far Journeys", by Monroe. An insurance salesman from New Jersey, who discovered he could get out of body, and he kept journals. Maybe it's made up, but if truth really is stranger than fiction, than maybe it's not made up because what happened to him was really strange.

 

One thing Munroe found; he had trouble getting back into his body, until he learned to tune into his breath. That brought him straight back every time, or so he said.

[voidisyinyang]

I recommend Master Nan, Huai-chin's books if you can find them. They're out of print in English and I gave my copies away. I had to read each book 3 times each just to get the concepts -- he is a Ch'an master and professor and a best-seller in China. http://meditationexpert.com is Bill Bodri his American student and collaborator.

 

Anyway Master Nan, Huai-chin talks about "different levels of emptiness." Also that the 8th level of consciousness is the universe but is only achieved when the first 5 levels of consciousness of the body are "emptied out." Master Nan, Huai-chin criticized the Japanese Zen for not practicing full-lotus body transformation enough and instead getting too conceptual. Also Master Nan, Huai-chin said that even if your astral body can travel out into the galaxy there will still be some cosmic catastrophe that will destroy you -- so even though you may be in heaven a long time it is not real immortality. In other words emptiness is an eternal process -- the actual process of meditation IS emptiness. The heaven astral realms are connected to the upper chakras -- so for example in Tibetan Buddhism the monk will feel the body of a recently dead person. If their feet get cold first that means the person is going to heaven but if their head gets cold first then their body is going to hell. So, in a way, our current living determines our level of rebirth based on the level of consciousness that is emptied out. It has to do with where your electromagnetic essence is stored in your body. Is it in your third eye or in your lower chakras? This determines your rebirth level as well. Bill Bodri says that often when people die they automatically have bowel movement and then their shen-spirit gets lost out their ass! haha.

 

I've been looking into Soto Zen Buddhism, and so far I've been very impressed with what I've found. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, was a great spiritual teacher, and Zazen Meditation looks like a very practical way to transcend the limits of dualistic thinking.

 

I haven't been able to find a clear answer on what Soto Zen says about death and the afterlife, however. Does the Soto Zen Buddhist (or any kind of Zen Buddhist) believe in rebirth, heaven and hell realms, etc?

Edited January 19, 2010 by drewhempel

[secularfuture]

Thank you for the replies.

 

It is not about believing but experiencing it. If it is meant to be you may experience rebirth in this very lifetime.

 

Buddhism is the practical philosophy about getting out of the rebirth eternal cycle.

I know of the philosophical interpretations of rebirth. I just want to know about some of the other concepts that I had issues with accepting when I was a Theravada Buddhist.

 

Do Zen Buddhists believe we can be reborn into a heaven or hell after we die?

 

Like that answer about experience; here's a story:

 

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai", the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" sneered Hakuin, "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? You look like a beggar".

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword.

Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably to dull to cut off my head."

Nobushige drew his sword.

Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, put away his sword and bowed.

"Here open the gates of paradise", said Hakuin.

From 'Zen flesh, Zen bones'

I like that. I never heard of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. I'll look it up.

 

I recommend Master Nan, Huai-chin's books if you can find them. They're out of print in English and I gave my copies away. I had to read each book 3 times each just to get the concepts -- he is a Ch'an master and professor and a best-seller in China. http://meditationexpert.com is Bill Bodri his American student and collaborator.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll look into them.

 

No Death, No Fear by Zen Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh, if I remember correctly, described death is a very pantheistic way. I really liked that book. I'm just hoping heavenly / hell realms aren't the norm in Zen. I'm kind of hoping Zen is more evolved than that.

Edited January 19, 2010 by secularfuture

[Gerard]

...I just want to know about some of the other concepts that I had issues with accepting when I was a Theravada Buddhist.

 

And they are?

[Nanashi]

Based off your handle, Secularfuture, I think you are looking for a secular Zen. It is popular in the West, Zen thought without the religious Buddhism. Maybe you should look up books by Alan Watts.

 

Or better yet, look into Taoism for your interest in non-duality. Heheh. Philosophically, it is similar to Zen without the religious thinking of Buddhism.

 

Addendum:

 

Here are some Zen koans and answers to help you in your interest:

 

http://www.interzone.com/~cheung/SUM.dir/zenspeak.html

 

This selection may pertain to your taste:

 

Heaven and hell aren't places that suddenly appear after death.

They exist here and now. Good and evil involve just a single instant of thought, and the gates of heaven and hell are ready to open for you at any time.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Nanashi

[secularfuture]

[secularfuture]

I think I get it now...

 

In Zen Buddhism, death isn't something that should be worried about.

 

 

When mortals are alive, they worry about death.

When they're full, they worry about hunger.

Theirs is the Great Uncertainty.

 

But sages don't consider the past.

And they don't worry about the future.

Nor do they cling to the present.

And from moment to moment they follow the Way.

 

Bodhidharma

[forestofclarity]

Some do, some don't. Gudo Nishijima and his students deny life after death. Others accept it. Ajahn Brahm says that it is not something to be believed, but to be found out for oneself. Zen, in my opinion, is not about trading in one set of beliefs for another, rather it is a way to transform yourself. Whether you believe in reincarnation or not is besides the issue.

Edited January 20, 2010 by forestofemptiness

[secularfuture]

Some do, some don't. Gudo Nishijima and his students deny life after death. Others accept it. Ajahn Brahm says that it is not something to be believed, but to be found out for oneself. Zen, in my opinion, is not about trading in one set of beliefs for another, rather it is a way to transform yourself. Whether you believe in reincarnation or not is besides the issue.

Well said.

 

Thank you for the reply.

[Gerard]

Literal heavenly and hell realms.

 

 

?

 

And this world? What does make you think there are no others that could be either infinitely blissful or horribly disturbing. I have experienced both and others in between and let me tell you that the First Noble Truth makes Buddhism something that cannot be ignored. I don't label myself with any particular tags; that is I cultivate the higher energy we all posses as suffering sentient beings and at the same time accept both Buddhism and Taoism as my major reference points.

 

If you are happy with Zen, so be it, but in my opinion it is another tag; deep down dwell in the essence of all practices: morality, body-mind and spirit.

Edited January 20, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Dainin]

Hello Secular Future,

 

I have been a member of a Soto Zen sangha for about 15 years (part of the White Plum lineage). In my experience, the only mention I've heard of karma is in the Gatha of Atonement, which we recite at the beginning of zazenkais or sesshins. This simply states:

 

All evil karma ever committed by me since of old,

On account of my beginningless greed, anger, and ignorance,

Born of my body, mouth and thought,

Now I atone for it all.

 

No mention was ever made of "merit", or being re-born in better or worse "realms". In fact, you might remember Bodhidharma's response to the emperor: "No merit whatsoever".

 

About 10 years ago we did a ceremony for nourishing hungry ghostsa few times at the end of retreats. I had to learn to play the conch shell for it! It wasn't incorporated by the group on ongoing basis though.

 

Later I asked a visiting roshi during an interview if he thought that the realms actually existed. He said he viewed them as metaphors for psycholgical states.

 

So from the perspective of a layman, I would say that there is very little emphasis on these ideas in Soto Zen.

 

I hope you find what you're looking for. Good luck.

[secularfuture]

?

 

And this world? What does make you think there are no others that could be either infinitely blissful or horribly disturbing.

There is no evidence for such places. Sure, there may be parallel dimensions or universes, but there's no reason to believe karma will direct us to any of those places because of our good or bad deeds.

 

Hello Secular Future,

 

I have been a member of a Soto Zen sangha for about 15 years (part of the White Plum lineage). In my experience, the only mention I've heard of karma is in the Gatha of Atonement, which we recite at the beginning of zazenkais or sesshins. This simply states:

 

All evil karma ever committed by me since of old,

On account of my beginningless greed, anger, and ignorance,

Born of my body, mouth and thought,

Now I atone for it all.

 

No mention was ever made of "merit", or being re-born in better or worse "realms". In fact, you might remember Bodhidharma's response to the emperor: "No merit whatsoever".

 

About 10 years ago we did a ceremony for nourishing hungry ghostsa few times at the end of retreats. I had to learn to play the conch shell for it! It wasn't incorporated by the group on ongoing basis though.

 

Later I asked a visiting roshi during an interview if he thought that the realms actually existed. He said he viewed them as metaphors for psycholgical states.

 

So from the perspective of a layman, I would say that there is very little emphasis on these ideas in Soto Zen.

 

I hope you find what you're looking for. Good luck.

This is great news!

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences in the Soto Sangha with us.

 

And thank you for the encouraging words.

[bobby]

If you practice astral travel you will find the answer to the questions about the afterlife.....

 

by direct experience......

 

which is the way buddha said we should learn all things....

 

basically what it comes down to is the mind....and its different bodies.....

 

the first realm after death is the astral realm....

 

it is a purgatory....

 

to purge the person of negative, obstructive emotions before going to paradise to rest....

 

this happens between incarnations....

 

the more good deeds you do in life the longer your stay in paradise.....

 

eventually a person will awaken sufficiently and will no longer need to incarante into the physical realm.....

 

where duality is very heavy....

 

padmasmabavha ( a buddha prophecized by gautama) spoke about this in the bardo thodol....

 

he explains the six realms of reincarnation....

[Mark Foote]

There is no evidence for such places. Sure, there may be parallel dimensions or universes, but there's no reason to believe karma will direct us to any of those places because of our good or bad deeds.

 

 

This is great news!

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences in the Soto Sangha with us.

 

And thank you for the encouraging words.

 

I think maybe fundamental to this discussion is the notion of whether or not you obtain enlightenment with your body, or your mind. I mention this because most of the people I talk to about my experience with zazen find my approach repugnant, because I am concerned with physical experience, and they usually question why I am so concerned with the body if in fact there is reincarnation. In other words, if an individual can be reborn, then the particulars of the physical body must be secondary in the quest for enlightenment, something like that.

 

I think the Gautamid was clear in the Pali Suttas that there is no soul, although at the behest of Ananda he often described the fate of those who had died, returning or not to this world. Strange, to my way of thinking. I can only speak from my own experience, and I haven't had a lot of psychic experience; to me, the connection with the universe at large is physical, primarily. Dogen also spoke to this, you can find the Dogen quote in my guide referenced below. Equanimity yields a kind of timelessness, and that I'm convinced is the Taoist immortality, and the heaven that Jesus spoke of. We have samsara, we have enlightenment, the Gautamid only knew the dharma without fault (nevertheless he talked a lot about social hierarchy and occasionally about fairies and ghosts, I believe he was mistaken on some of these counts as to the real nature of what he described).

He did explicitly describe hell realms. Have you seen "Jacob's Ladder", the movie?- I like the quote from Meister Eckhart, I believe it was, about hell just being a place where your attachments are broken down. As soon as you relinquish your attachments, the devils become angels accompanying you to heaven. I like this because the emphasis is on letting go and losing, which seems closer to the truth to me spiritually than gaining (enlightenment, heaven, what have you).

 

hope this is on topic.

[forestofclarity]

Neither.

 

I think maybe fundamental to this discussion is the notion of whether or not you obtain enlightenment with your body, or your mind.

[Encephalon]

My understanding of the Soto Zen School, where I received my first instruction in Buddhist meditation, is that they are pragmatic existentialists. When people asked the Buddha to indulge in metaphysical speculation, asking him questions about life after death, he answered by saying that they had more important things to attend to besides metaphysics. Working on their emotional baggage was the task at hand. People who don the Buddhist title are free to pick and choose from the ideas of dozens of schools, but can also choose a meditation technique, such as the Soto Zen "wallgazer" method, if it suits there mental temperament.

[Mark Foote]

[forestofclarity]

[Mark Foote]

What is a body without a mind?

 

Toward the end of the Majjhima Nikaya, there's a sermon on the six-fold sense field. The Gautamid is quoted as saying that all that is necessary for the eight fold path and all the other elements of enlightenment to develop and come to fruition is knowing, seeing as it really is sense object, sense organ, consciousness associated with sense object and sense organ, impact (associated with consciousness), and feeling (associated with impact). Consciousness only exists because of contact between sense object and sense organ, in other sermons in the Pali Cannon, and there is no continuous consciousness (the description is that it's like a forest fire jumping from tree to tree, it appears as though the fire has a separate existence but really there is no fire without the fuel that it burns). Mind is one of the six senses, so in this context the physical experience of mind object/mind sense, mind consciousness, mind consciousness impact, and mind consciousness impact feeling is emphasized. Shikantaza.

 

I think your question was intended to be rhetorical; since we are all teaching ourselves here, I have taken the opportunity to clarify a point to myself, and I don't know if we are still in conversation or not. If so, feel free to make a note- crazy people, talking to themselves, or is it a cellphone or a blog, god knows... thanks.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Mark Foote

[forestofclarity]

Traditionally, the Skandha of form was the body or matter, and all the others up to Vijnana were considered mind. You will find a lot of Theravada talk about mind and matter. Vijnana can be translated as "discriminating consciousness". Now, if you fast forward to the Zen masters, you will hear a lot of talk about getting rid of discrimination. So this must not be the mind they are talking about.

 

Ma Tsu thought he could become a Buddha by sitting in meditation. But the master picked up a tile, polishing it to become a mirror. How can polishing a tile make a mirror? How can sitting make a Buddha?

 

This is why I said, Neither.

 

Toward the end of the Majjhima Nikaya, there's a sermon on the six-fold sense field. The Gautamid is quoted as saying that all that is necessary for the eight fold path and all the other elements of enlightenment to develop and come to fruition is knowing, seeing as it really is sense object, sense organ, consciousness associated with sense object and sense organ, impact (associated with consciousness), and feeling (associated with impact). Consciousness only exists because of contact between sense object and sense organ, in other sermons in the Pali Cannon, and there is no continuous consciousness (the description is that it's like a forest fire jumping from tree to tree, it appears as though the fire has a separate existence but really there is no fire without the fuel that it burns). Mind is one of the six senses, so in this context the physical experience of mind object/mind sense, mind consciousness, mind consciousness impact, and mind consciousness impact feeling is emphasized. Shikantaza.

 

I think your question was intended to be rhetorical; since we are all teaching ourselves here, I have taken the opportunity to clarify a point to myself, and I don't know if we are still in conversation or not. If so, feel free to make a note- crazy people, talking to themselves, or is it a cellphone or a blog, god knows... thanks.

[Gerard]

There is no evidence for such places.

 

Who told you there is an evidence for this world you live in right now? From another being's perspective this world maybe an illusion.

 

 

 

Sure, there may be parallel dimensions or universes, but there's no reason to believe karma will direct us to any of those places because of our good or bad deeds.

 

Karma is your judge and destiny. Actions and acquired behaviour according to those actions. You could land anywhere in Samsara but most likely in any place that vibrates similarly to your karmic strength.