Lao Tzu, proof he existed?

[SarahMoriko]

One of main reasons for not being Christian is the fact that I believe that Jesus never existed... so now I am starting to see that Lao Tzu did not either...sorry, but I am new to Taoism so this is all confusing for me. The Tao Te Ching was more likely a collection of authors? Do we have any proof or only speculation? Do taoists only base their ways off of this fictional character?

Sorry for all the questions, I feel overwhelmed

[doc benway]

What does being Chrisitan have to do with the existence or non-existence of Jesus?

What does Daoism have to do with whether someone named "Old Master" was a historical figure or a legendary one?

 

If the message of Christianity is genuine and true and you allow it to be a guiding light in your life, then you are Chrisitan. Same with Daoism. If Laozi was alive at some point, he's dead as a doornail now. Same with Jesus. Whether their wisdom could be attributed to two individuals or the culmination of decades or centuries of compounded cultural and social wisdom really doesn't make any difference at all, at least to me.

 

It's much better to see the truth in things as they are than become attached to the words of a corpse.

[effilang]

Jesus was a vessel for the message he carried and the message he died sharing with the world.

Laozi was a vessel for the message he carried and shared with the world and then died.

 

It is the latter that is the constant, not the man. The truth, not the truth-sayer.

 

If Laozi were alive today, would it change the nature of the Tao?

- What is Taoism without The Tao?

 

If Jesus were alive today, would it change the nature of Christianity?

- What is Christianity, without (insert whatever you believe here)?

 

They did the world a great honor by sharing their wisdom and compassion.

They are people to look up to, but what they really want YOU to look up to... is the message.

 

The message is eternal, because the ultimate truth is undying.

 

Thus, whether you choose to believe or not in Jesus, or Buddha or Laozi, depends on whether you believe in their truths and not in them.

 

They came to show the way, but the way WAS there before them and IS still here now that they are gone, and will be... forever

Edited January 19, 2010 by effilang

[gendao]

Well, Laozi (Li Er) was supposedly a Zhou Dynasty royal court librarian/historian and a contemporary of Confucius. So, he likely wasn't just some mythical figure, although he may have been mythologized somewhat.

 

Regardless, he wasn't really the founder of Taoism anyways - but just wrote a highly-influential, philosophical text about it. "Taoism" itself as a subculture already existed from much older shamanic origins, though. So it's not like Laozi created it all from scratch, even if he truly existed and did author the Dao De Jing.

Edited January 19, 2010 by vortex

[fiveelementtao]

Lao Tzu is only one of many taoist sages and practices. Taoism is not like christianity in that it is dependent on one prophet. For christianity (as it is practiced in the West) yes, I can see that for some, his actual existence might be important for belief. But Taoism is not about intellectual belief in one person, it is about experience with the forces of the universe and using them to transform yourself. So, believe or don't believe, no matter, practice what taoism teaches and see for yourself if it helps you. You can be christian, buddhist, hindu, muslim, whatever and practice taoism, it is not a religion in that sense... And i feel fairly confident in saying that if Lao Tzu does exist he does not care whether we believe in him or not, he might even agree that he doesn't exist...

 

One of main reasons for not being Christian is the fact that I believe that Jesus never existed... so now I am starting to see that Lao Tzu did not either...sorry, but I am new to Taoism so this is all confusing for me. The Tao Te Ching was more likely a collection of authors? Do we have any proof or only speculation? Do taoists only base their ways off of this fictional character?

Sorry for all the questions, I feel overwhelmed

Edited January 19, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[doc benway]

Well, Laozi (Li Er) was supposedly a Zhou Dynasty royal court librarian/historian and a contemporary of Confucius. So, he likely wasn't just some mythical figure, although he may have been mythologized somewhat.

 

Even that much is questionable.

Here are a few links with decent scholarship about Laozi.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/

http://history.cultural-china.com/en/166History5066.html

[Stigweard]

Even that much is questionable.

Here are a few links with decent scholarship about Laozi.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/

http://history.cultural-china.com/en/166History5066.html

Yup. There is no proof to verify his existence, nor any proof to verify his non-existence (kinda Dao really). So the personage of Laozi fits officially into the myth category. But myth in the sense that it is a tale of power that kindles our spirit and inspires us to seek a greater sense of being.

 

[thelerner]

Its an interesting question from a cultural point too. I've wondered about his existence out loud. A woman who went with Stigwerd to a big Taoist convention in China had an article censored by the Chinese. I think its because it asked that question. It may be considered taboo in some circles.

 

 

Michael

[Spirit Ape]

My Hun Yuan Yi Qi Zhuang is said to of been developed by 2 of Lao Tzus top desciples!!!

[Stigweard]

Its an interesting question from a cultural point too. I've wondered about his existence out loud. A woman who went with Stigwerd to a big Taoist convention in China had an article censored by the Chinese. I think its because it asked that question. It may be considered taboo in some circles.

 

 

Michael

Jess can't say for sure why her article got censored, her editor never said. She also made mention of the disharmony that existed at another conference at Wudangshan between the Western and Eastern delegates. That could also be reason enough for the censorship.

 

True it is though that the "party line" Daoism in China asserts Laozi is at least a living historical reality and at best a deity.

[Marblehead]

... nor any proof to verify his non-existence (kinda Dao really).

 

Okay. You caused me a laugh. Hehehe.

 

True, there is no solid evidence that he existed. But he was being written about 150 years after his supposed disappearance into the desert. But who knows what might be found in some grave somewhere? Doesn't matter to me though. I feel the same way about the inner and outer chapters of Chuang Tzu. Doesn't matter. It is the concepts that are presented that are important.

 

Peace & Love!

[Jack Runner]

One of main reasons for not being Christian is the fact that I believe that Jesus never existed... so now I am starting to see that Lao Tzu did not either...sorry, but I am new to Taoism so this is all confusing for me. The Tao Te Ching was more likely a collection of authors? Do we have any proof or only speculation? Do taoists only base their ways off of this fictional character?

Sorry for all the questions, I feel overwhelmed

 

I remember watching a video that talked about how when Jesus left for 40 days and 40 nights to meditate in the desert that he didn't really leave for for that long. It was more like 4yrs and he traveled across the world, he ended up coming upon a temple in the Tibetan mountains and earned the trust of the monks there who taught him about meditation and later how to heal others. Thus developing the 1st "Christ Conciseness" after that he was full of truth, knowledge and wisdom, thus returning home to "set things right".

 

Long story short it was apart of his plan after a time to get cursified (sp?) because due to his training he would be able to slow and stop his heart long enough to fool enough people that he was dead, mary using special oils, herbs and medicines to keep his body healing correctly after that situation. When he came too it was as if he "resurrected" and went to find his half brother and sister, and then wrote the "Book of Love" to combat the religious atrocity's that were happening. Later for the book and all of it's followers to be labeled as witch's, devil worshipers etc, that allowed the Knights Templars to act according to the king and do a full hunt down.

 

I honestly dont know how much of that story is true, but it sounds cool as hell, and there are a lot of events in time tying things together. I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't his real name, but was given that name later by the church.

 

This is the video: http://www.sprword.com/videos/ringofpower/ pretty good watch.

 

 

I personally dont think it matters if any of these PEOPLE actually existed, it's the message that was left is whats most important. Anyone that left this earth, leaving a fake name to teach us all about love and understanding is "ok" in my book.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

What does being Chrisitan have to do with the existence or non-existence of Jesus?

What does Daoism have to do with whether someone named "Old Master" was a historical figure or a legendary one?

 

If the message of Christianity is genuine and true and you allow it to be a guiding light in your life, then you are Chrisitan. Same with Daoism. If Laozi was alive at some point, he's dead as a doornail now. Same with Jesus. Whether their wisdom could be attributed to two individuals or the culmination of decades or centuries of compounded cultural and social wisdom really doesn't make any difference at all, at least to me.

 

It's much better to see the truth in things as they are than become attached to the words of a corpse.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Guest winpro07]

Read: Babaji and the 18 sidda kriya yoga tradition.

 

The author translated the palm leaf vedas for the indian government

There's info about Lau Tzu.

[Guest winpro07]

Read: Babaji and the 18 sidda kriya yoga tradition.

 

The author translated the palm leaf vedas for the indian government

There's info about Lau Tzu.

[Guest winpro07]

..

[SarahMoriko]

I understand that its not important for him to have really existed, that its the message that matters, but its kind of like when you find out that there really isn't a Santa Claus, Christmas (Giftmas as I call it) will never be the same.

It just seems more inspiring if a Loa Tzu and his work wasn't just another case of he said she said.

[Spirit Ape]

Where can you read these vedas?

[Guest winpro07]

the author and translator was Govinda. I have never searched on line. The book has many reference and source in it.

I was walking through a book stored as a short cut to a parking lot when the book jumped of the top shelf. Weird thing, it was out of printing a barns and noble and was not listed in their system, so they gave it to me for 5.99, haha.

 

it's a good read if you take time to connect all of the material.

 

the nazi did a good job of getting rid of the Essene. You can find more proofs of the christian heritage through their works.

take in inwards look at the christian alchemy. The color of it. How it works. There are similarity between it an several other tradition. I have a book printed at holy names in the 60's. It was made on a small press and only 90 copies. The author had been to europe and studied with them. While there he took a photo of stone relief from a temple had been hit during the war. Is was an Essene monk from side view holding one of the KL posture.

 

Any way there is a link between Egypt, Essene and Taoism and even Greek mythology's Hercules, Thor and Lau Tzu, haha

 

If you know it, you will see it in all things though there were some systems created to preserve and present it..

 

There have been several bible recalls in recent history. It happened here and europe during and after WW2. There was some information in very old bibles that would have lead an self aware person to realizations about our human heritage and universal purpose. I got hold of a very old bible had been handed down from northern Italy near Austria.

Edited January 20, 2010 by winpro07

[Guest winpro07]

There are a few real images of the old alchemy, or the middle way..

 

interesting link:

 

http://www.unifiedftheory.com/excerpts/diary/index.htm

 

Ptolemy II of Egypt, ordered to have the Hebrew sacred texts translated into Greek, known as the "Septuagint." This was done by the Essenes who lived near Alexandria. The Essenes were reluctant to include all the esoteric lore of the original texts in their translations, so they disguised some original material and introduced some new material. The Old Testament stories of Adam and Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden, for example, were all Essene additions to the original Hebrew text.

 

i know this path, do you?

[Guest winpro07]

I found a painting of Siva smoking Pot then smoking Datura.

they're or were considered the Queen and King counterpart

of the plant spirit realm.

 

There is always and apple leaf of the original stock of apple tree

like from Solomons garden. It's taken as a symbol, but I think not.

 

There are three aspects of each path or form. Father/mother/child etc.

 

There are also three electrochemical in the natural world that correspond to

and stimulate production of the three elixer and or refining of the elixer/wood element.

 

Not saying these do this. I think Siva was using the apple leaf as a toxin to increase life force

and hold the gate open so the datura would not kill him till he go to the good stuff and smoked his bowl..

 

The middle way is always formed by a connect of complimentary opposite. It some time has a physical form like a molecule that binds two other together, or father-son-mother, earth-moon-sun. In the microcosm it is a force that binds ions. There are only three element in the alchemy

[Gerard]

One of main reasons for not being Christian is the fact that I believe that Jesus never existed... so now I am starting to see that Lao Tzu did not either...

 

How do you know that you exist? What is you anyway? The karmic mix of certain conditions (kandhas) is what creates the grasping of "you" manifesting here and now but if you remove them: is there a real you to be found?

 

When you find the answer to this come back and post again. It might take you 2 hours or 200 lifetimes.

Edited January 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[hajimesaito]

Isn't it written in Tao Te Ching that the Sage helps people without letting them know that he is helping them? Lao Tzu was what he followed. He helped people but his own identity was not important. Thus, he was simply called "Lao Tze" or "Great Sage".

 

Modern historians are too much involved into names, identities etc. What do they mean when they ask "Who Lao Tzu was?"? Do they want to know what his "real" name was? Do they want to know if he was related to another historical person (another name)? Names do not convey identity, nor do relationships. It is the work of the man by which he is known. Lao Tze is known for his teachings.

 

Do you want to know if Lao Tze existed or not? He did. Whoever was the author of Tao Te Ching was "Lao Tze". That is his identity. And since Tao Te Ching didn't drop from the heavens, and was written by someone who was wise, the only person he could be is what the modern people fantasize about "Lao Tze".

[voidisyinyang]

SarahMoriko -- great question! When qigong master Chunyi Lin was doing his deep meditation in the mountains he said that Lao Tzu physically appeared to him and touched him. I even sent Chunyi Lin a copy of "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharya S. and Chunyi Lin goes to church every sunday! haha. Anyway Chunyi Lin was meditating here -- with this person: "Grandmaster Yuanming Zhang was born into a traditional martial arts family in Sichuan province in 1963. His entire life has been devoted to Internal Kung Fu and Traditional Chinese Medicine. He traces his lineage through reknowned Zhang family ancestors back to the sage Laozi (Lao Tzu)."

 

http://www.qigongmaster.com/zhangbio.html

 

So if you study Ramana Maharshi of Advaita Vedanta -- it's taught that the whole universe is an illusion -- that there is no evolution -- that creation never happened -- that only pure consciousness is real -- that all the masters and highest astral realms are illusions -- and that we are illusions.

 

Well on the other hand it does not mean that Lao Tzu is not "Real" --

 

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Vedanta/Ramana_on_creation.html

 

One of main reasons for not being Christian is the fact that I believe that Jesus never existed... so now I am starting to see that Lao Tzu did not either...sorry, but I am new to Taoism so this is all confusing for me. The Tao Te Ching was more likely a collection of authors? Do we have any proof or only speculation? Do taoists only base their ways off of this fictional character?

Sorry for all the questions, I feel overwhelmed

[Dao Shi Zi Ran]

Laozi is only the very first step on the Dao. Daoism is full of deities whose existence cannot be scientifically or historically proven. The Queen Mother of the West (Xi Wang Mu) for example. Advanced practitioners experience these beings directly during ceremonies and meditations. If you insist on basing your belief in Daoism on the historical existence of a given sage or deity, you are not going to get very far.