Emptiness and the conditions for awakening

[sean]

[edit]Discussion split from Cam's journal to allow fuller discussion without overrunning his journal

 

Also, I am not in a realationship right now but for all of you who are that would require a whole other level of discipline and a really understadning partner. Maybe people in long term realationships like Sean or Yoda can give feedback on communicating the level of subtle energy communication and patience required. Then again, I don't think any of you guys successfully completed or desired to complete 100 days retention.

I'm probably around 30 effortless days of "retention" right now. And Lezlie and I are very sexually active. I am also very sensitive to my energetics (what is/isn't working, etc.) which is why I've been so careful approaching brahmacharya. IMO the real proof of how bad-ass your practice is, is wether it works when you are fucking.. Can you remain in pure silent empty bliss consciousness when you are fucking a beautiful girl? Or dancing? or doing jiu-jitsu? or eating a delicious meal?

 

As I've said a million times I believe that retention without opening your orbit is worse than pointless, it's harmful. And I don't think emptiness practice alone automagically handles this opening process and there are dozens and dozens and dozens of recorded, highly imbalanced emptiness-warriors that support my point. Just think of all the Buddhist and Hindu masters who have come to the West from their secluded, extreme emptiness emphasized environments only to realize their root and sacral chakras are completely unintegrated into their awakening and they start molesting 17 year old aspirants or becoming alcoholics because they practically cannot help themselves. Then look at Plato, he is intuitively drawn to work his root chakra continually ... he is cultivating his lower chakras because emptiness alone won't do this. Period.

 

Emptiness practice is a masculine impulse. For freedom. For silence. For peace. (At lower levels it's a mere desire to detach, be left alone, die.) The feminine impulse is to merge with and become Light. To shine. To embody. (At lower levels a compulsion to be noticed/appreciated constantly, overfixate on life/manifestation). Tantra, Bhakti and karma yoga come to mind. Not everyone will be drawn to practice both approaches equally, which is fine. But one is not better than the other. Emptiness practice is not the only legitimate Yogic path. The test of a fully awakened being is their ability to be comfortable w/ both expressions. Not necessarily masters of both, but not completely out of the water with, or dismissive of either. This is more vital to integrate if you really want a girlfriend and a relationship as an integral, tantric path. Otherwise, like many great unbalanced teachers and traditions, you will not really respect her impulse toward God. You will find a girl to patronize and wonder when you will leave for your heroic, male, cave-on-the-mountain journey will begin.

 

Sean

Edited January 29, 2006 by sean

[Smile]

I think you are on the right track Sean, even though you are explaining it from a different standpoint.

 

Bill Bodri is right, and yet to be successful in what he and his teacher are teaching, we need to have an ample time to prepare. If someone with no experience try to attemp this, they will certainly fail. And most people who claim they can reach stillness in meditation are supressing their thoughts.

 

There are 3 conditions to being successful in empty mind meditation:

1. Your body must be healthy with all the channels open.

2. Your mind is quiet and under control.

3. No sexual related activities of any kind, in mind or body.

 

Some people may question the third condition. All I can say is #2 and #3 are deeply connected.

 

Dude, who are you? I don't see you on the welcome screen. Max?

Why do you think I'm a dude?

Edited January 27, 2006 by Smile

[sean]

There are 3 conditions to being successful in empty mind meditation:

1. Your body must be healthy with all the channels open.

2. Your mind is quiet and under control.

3. No sexual related activities of any kind, in mind or body.

But Max, your #1 completely contradicts all of Bodri's work. It presupposes that emptiness meditation alone will not open the channels and so therefore other means are necessary. And if other means are necessary, then they are an integral part of a spiritual path and are therefore cultivation. So there goes Bodri's marketing niche.

 

Also, #2 and #3 are fragments of spiritual wisdom but I think you are taking them literally and dualistically and therefore wrong.

 

The gross mind is never quiet and in control, it's very nature is to move. Emptiness does not still the mind. Emptiness practice merely identifies with the pre-existing Stillness in every moment. And this can have profound effects for the gross and subtle bodies, but that is not the intention. The intention is to rest in the awareness that is always there and always will be. It doesn't require anything actually because we are already aware of it in every single moment, it's just such an obvious feature of our awareness that we ignore it to focus on the dance of form.

 

The gross body is always always involved in sexual activities in every moment. It's very nature is desire, a seeking to merge, sensuality, attraction, reproduction, creativity. Genitalia is just one aspect of the gross body's expression of sexuality. Emptiness practice merely identifies with that which is already One and is therefore not seeking to merge. And again, this can have profound effects on the gross and subtle bodies, but it's not the intention.

 

Blanking out the mind and avoiding penis stimulation are not the watermarks of cultivation. Again, a great test of your penetration of Emptiness is ... can you stay identified with Empty Stillness while your gross mind has thoughts and while your gross body has sex? You are already practicing this ability in emptiness meditation. But if your transcendental consciousness disappears the moment you sit up, what's the point? Enlightened masters still have thoughts and probably still get hard sometimes, it's just their Identity has shifted to the Absolute. They can participate in the dance of form without disturbance. God is everywhere Max, not just behind closed eyes in zazen although I believe this is an important way to get a taste.

 

Sean

 

PS - It would be nice if you would work up the ethics and courage one day to apologize to us all for conspiring with Ron to impersonate, attack and insult many good people in this community. Then you wouldn't need to hide behind new handles.

[Smile]

PS - It would be nice if you would work up the ethics and courage one day to apologize to us all for conspiring with Ron to impersonate, attack and insult many good people in this community. Then you wouldn't need to hide behind new handles.

Sean,

I will address your full post later when I have more time.

 

As for PS, here is a good Zen question for you that I hope you can answer - not for me but for yourself:

If someone is acusing you of something you haven't done, is there an apology?

 

Life is very deceaving- things you are so sure of may not be so. The IP is also a very deceptive thing- basing all your conclusions on it will bring you nowhere. Use your other sences- the truth is not so hard to see.

[sean]

As for PS, here is a good Zen question for you that I hope you can answer - not for me but for yourself:

If someone is acusing you of something you haven't done, is there an apology?

 

Life is very deceaving- things you are so sure of may not be so. The IP is also a very deceptive thing- basing all your conclusions on it will bring you nowhere. Use your other sences- the truth is not so hard to see.

Not just IP, Max, your telltale peddling of Bodri/emptiness as dogma, addressing TwoTrees familiarly, your arrogant tone, sloppy grammar, spelling and logic, etc.. (FYI - accusing, deceiving, senses). Also, your question is not Zen or deep or mysterious ... it's just a basic question about culpability and responsibility. Obviously no apology is necessary if you haven't done anything wrong (common sense). But the fact is you were caught red-handed colluding with "Ron" at the height of his unjust, immoral attacks on Lezlie, Lozen, thelerner, myself and other members of this community. I don't see why I should even let you sneak back on here as "Smile" without an apology to us for your obvious involvement in that, even if your involvement was just shrugging your shoulders and laughing as if it wasn't your problem.

[Smile]

Not just IP, Max, your telltale peddling of Bodri/emptiness as dogma, addressing TwoTrees familiarly, your arrogant tone, sloppy grammar, spelling and logic, etc.. (FYI - accusing, deceiving, senses). Also, your question is not Zen or deep or mysterious ... it's just a basic question about culpability and responsibility. Obviously no apology is necessary if you haven't done anything wrong (common sense). But the fact is you were caught red-handed colluding with "Ron" at the height of his unjust, immoral attacks on Lezlie, Lozen, thelerner, myself and other members of this community. I don't see why I should even let you sneak back on here as "Smile" without an apology to us for your obvious involvement in that, even if your involvement was just shrugging your shoulders and laughing as if it wasn't your problem.

Sean, again and again you assume something- just like the last outburst you had on HT board where you made fun of me and challenged me with a duel. Do you really think it ok calling me a little girl and taunt me that I would run away from a challenge like some moma's boy hiding behind a computer screen? Do you think it's coming from your heart?

 

your telltale peddling of Bodri/emptiness as dogma, addressing TwoTrees familiarly, your arrogant tone, sloppy grammar, spelling and logic, etc.. (FYI - accusing, deceiving, senses).

Again, thank you for your kindness. You may also ask TwoTrees why I talk to her in a personal tone.

 

You don't have to make fun of Bill Bodri's material- it's not his or Master Nan's invention. If you want, you can read Diamond Sutra for more information.

 

Policing other members of the board wasn't my problem. I had other things to do. If you think I'm resposible because I didn't do anything about it, you could have raised the same question to the other parties as well.

 

Did you? Nope. Is it one of your attempts "to embarass me with your force"? That's what you said last time to me, remember? Like I say, straight from the heart, right?

Edited January 27, 2006 by Smile

[Cameron]

I think this is a good opportunity for both of you to "let go" of past grudges and hurts. As I told Sean there are not too many people around working on this stuff in one form or another it is nice to get feedback from other pracititioners. Part of the lessons of eastern spirituality for me have been to be light with yourself and others. Have a sense of humor about yorself.

 

I think Max is a good guy and definetly once considered him a friend. We havent spoken in years despite my attempts to reach out for a friendly chat and that's cool. Max is busy with his life and obviously has strong feelings about what he beleives in and what cultivation entails.

 

I would say Max main fault, however, is not being respectful or acknowledging so much what others beleive in and what others feel is important. I don't think Max does this out of arrogance but he really feels his way is the best way and others are deluded or going to hell for following false paths(A sentiment I have heard alot as a kid growing up Roman Catholic)

 

I love Buddhism. I love the teachings of not being so absorbed in the ego self and caring about others. Doing good deeds for others, not hurting others. But when we get too much into " Lord Buddha said such and such" I think this is a little off track and actually not what Buddha wanted. I think Buddhas teaching, if the actual Buddha really ever existed to begin with or was created by others and given a story, is about finding the truths of life for youself and not falling into dogma. This is the right way and this is the wrong way type thinking.

 

And Sean, I didn't mean to imply one ONLY do emptiness meditation but that it would be important to add the practice for serious long term retention, along with sexual qigong excercises which I do daily.

 

Cam

Edited January 27, 2006 by Cameron

[sean]

Sean, again and again you assume something- just like the last outburst you had on HT board where you made fun of me and challenged me with a duel. Do you really think it ok calling me a little girl and taunt me that I would run away from a challenge like some moma's boy hiding behind a computer screen? Do you think it's coming from your heart?

My outburst was not coming from Big Heart, no, it was coming from fear, anger and grief in my personal heart, yes. (I don't remember ever calling you a girl though and I'd like to think I have more respect for women than to use their gender as an insult.) I do have enough emotional distance on that situation now to say that yes, I acted out of anger and ill-intention and I sincerely apologize if I hurt your feelings.

Policing other members of the board wasn't my problem. I had other things to do. If you think I'm resposible because I didn't do anything about it, you could have raised the same question to the other parties as well.

Max, the people you choose to associate with and befriend are very much your problem. All of the great wisdom traditions are unanimous on the importance of connecting with a healthy, ethical sangha and on having allies that hold you to moral standards. We are literally vibrated by the frequencies of those we associate with. Speaking personally, your apathy toward mine and Lezlie's feelings during Ron's senseless attacks of us hurt me. Also, I perceive this cloud of inauthenticity around your online persona. It's like this cultish, fanatical adherence to your style of practice as being the only way and "better than" everyone/everything else that borders on egomaniacal and honestly just bugs the shit out of me. I think it's fear-based and energetically identical to fundamentalism. But I don't think you are really like this in person and another big pet peeve of mine is large disparities like this, between online personas and real life people. So basically I am saying I used to like you a lot and had much higher expectations of you and was let down and thereby hurt. But if what you are saying is true and you were not directly involved with Ron's nonsense than if you want to come back here as Max let me know and I will open up that profile for you.

 

Sean

[Smile]

I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't be acting the way we did if we met in real life. Causing you or anybody else pain would be the last thing I would like to do, and I'm very sorry you had to go through these kind of feelings due to my actions (or non-actions).

 

I like my new name better and will keep it. The name doesn't matter much anyway- the messages do.

[Cameron]

I always liked Max's cell phone message.

 

It said "You know what to do".

 

When Max and I met in Asheville for Winn fundamentals Winn had everyone introduce themselves in a circle.

 

Max and I sat next to eachother and I was first. Winn asked why did you come here or something and I said " To become more balanced etc" some kind of generic answer.

 

Max was next. Winn looked at Max and Max said " If I knew why I came here I probably would not have come".

 

Everyone laughed and Winn said " Wow, I need to watch out for this guy, he's really deep".

[Smile]

<<<1. Your body must be healthy with all the channels open.>>>

 

But Max, your #1 completely contradicts all of Bodri's work. It presupposes that emptiness meditation alone will not open the channels and so therefore other means are necessary. And if other means are necessary, then they are an integral part of a spiritual path and are therefore cultivation. So there goes Bodri's marketing niche.

 

I believe I said it's one of the conditions to the successful in emptiness meditation. And in order to set it up, you have to practice this meditation. Seems confusing? Let me explain.

 

Let's take BJJ for example. If you start practicing it without any grappling experience, will you be successful? Probably not very much. In order to be skilled in applying it in a real combat, you have to train hard for at least a couple of years, if not your whole life. You have to train BJJ to be successful in BJJ and set up conditions for the BJJ to 'shine' through you. Do you understand now what I'm saying?

 

The same will apply to anything, including empty mind meditation. When you start, even though you sit down and close your eyes, you most likely will not be able to silence your mind for more then a minute, if you're lucky. After months and years of practice, you set up the conditions, like #1, so you have an easier time for stillness to permeate your body and mind.

 

<<< 2. Your mind is quiet and under control.>>>

<<< 3. No sexual related activities of any kind, in mind or body.>>>

 

Also, #2 and #3 are fragments of spiritual wisdom but I think you are taking them literally and dualistically and therefore wrong.

 

They are just 2 major conditions for any cultivation to be successful. There are many others and one can write a book to list all of them in details. Do not hold on literally to what I'm saying.

 

The gross mind is never quiet and in control, it's very nature is to move. Emptiness does not still the mind. Emptiness practice merely identifies with the pre-existing Stillness in every moment. And this can have profound effects for the gross and subtle bodies, but that is not the intention. The intention is to rest in the awareness that is always there and always will be. It doesn't require anything actually because we are already aware of it in every single moment, it's just such an obvious feature of our awareness that we ignore it to focus on the dance of form.

 

I agree with everything you said and you have a very good perception. But the question is: Now what? You know all this but knowing and actually experiencing Stillness in every moment are two separate things. If you don't, what are you going to do about it? If you do, how deep does it penetrate your very existence? There are many layers to this, as you may know. Emptiness meditation takes on all these questions directly as opposed to visualization practices.

 

The gross body is always always involved in sexual activities in every moment. It's very nature is desire, a seeking to merge, sensuality, attraction, reproduction, creativity. Genitalia is just one aspect of the gross body's expression of sexuality. Emptiness practice merely identifies with that which is already One and is therefore not seeking to merge. And again, this can have profound effects on the gross and subtle bodies, but it's not the intention.

 

Blanking out the mind and avoiding penis stimulation are not the watermarks of cultivation. Again, a great test of your penetration of Emptiness is ... can you stay identified with Empty Stillness while your gross mind has thoughts and while your gross body has sex? You are already practicing this ability in emptiness meditation. But if your transcendental consciousness disappears the moment you sit up, what's the point? Enlightened masters still have thoughts and probably still get hard sometimes, it's just their Identity has shifted to the Absolute. They can participate in the dance of form without disturbance. God is everywhere Max, not just behind closed eyes in zazen although I believe this is an important way to get a taste.

 

You have good understanding of this and I agree with most of what you said. You probably misunderstood my statement though. I don't condone sex and its relationship to cultivation. I'm talking about the quality of aroused sexual energy and its ability to transform to chi. From my observations and experience, it takes longer for this transformation to take place in its excited condition, plus you will have in addition to work with (and transform) your partner's energy as well that you give and receive through your sexual exchange. This all will take extra time. Much more time that we have. That was one of the big reasons for most spiritual schools advocating abstinence.

[TwoTrees]

Seriously, guys...I have read this over and over and I know you're not wanting to hear me pipin' up at this point and asking something so off-kelter... but... it's really bugging me...

 

When did 'Smile' address me familiarly?

I kinda feel like an ass for not recognizing...but....ehh....

 

*smiles anyway*

[Ian]

I've worked out what it is.

 

Most of us have, and give off, this sense of discussing, sharing, being equals, helping each other.

 

But you, Max, sound like a teacher. Like you are sure you could never be wrong, or your understanding could never be incomplete, or refinable further.

 

Maybe that's so. We've never met, I've no idea. But I am sure you would get a much more positive response from people if you just wrote a little less like you were their superior.

 

It's not that difficult, believe me. I'm an arrogant bugger myself, and when I've got something I really think is true I tend to lay it on with a trowel. So I try, not always successfully, I'm sure, to write like I remember that I'm just another fool.

 

Doesn't take much. Just add a few clauses. "My experience, while doing x, is that y happened." "my impression is...." "I really do believe, based on x months of practice, that...."

 

If you share your own experience, rather than writing like you're presenting infallible doctrine, you will be so much better received. Nobody likes having a point of view given to them as if it's unchallengeable. It just makes us want to argue. Why not just present the evidence, and let people draw their own conclusions?

 

After all, your reason for sharing what you believe is true, or what you experience as truth, must be to help others and guide them towards beneficial practices. Yes? Yet your style has been having the effect of actively putting people off the direction in which you might hope to lead them.

 

Honestly, don't try to convince anyone of anything in one post. Especially not that what they do is bad for them. People only accept that from someone they have already placed in the teacher category.

 

If you want to lead people in your direction, just be friendly, offer tips where appropriate, let the fact that you yourself are happy and serene gradually diffuse through your writing.

 

Finally, please let me assure you that I only see fit to say this because I see myself doing exactly the same. And my understanding, my commitment to practice, and my depth of meditation are, from what I glean, all much less than yours. So if I find it hard not to preach about what little I've understood, I'm sure the temptation must be many times greater for you.

 

But if you simply bear in mind that you are currently, merely by style rather than content, thwarting your own goal, well, that may help.

 

I, for one, look forward to hearing a lot more from you.

[sean]

I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't be acting the way we did if we met in real life. Causing you or anybody else pain would be the last thing I would like to do, and I'm very sorry you had to go through these kind of feelings due to my actions (or non-actions).

Agreed Max, and I appreciate your apology very much.

I believe I said it's one of the conditions to the successful in emptiness meditation. And in order to set it up, you have to practice this meditation. Seems confusing? Let me explain.

Let's take BJJ for example. If you start practicing it without any grappling experience, will you be successful? Probably not very much. In order to be skilled in applying it in a real combat, you have to train hard for at least a couple of years, if not your whole life. You have to train BJJ to be successful in BJJ and set up conditions for the BJJ to 'shine' through you. Do you understand now what I'm saying?

 

The same will apply to anything, including empty mind meditation. When you start, even though you sit down and close your eyes, you most likely will not be able to silence your mind for more then a minute, if you're lucky. After months and years of practice, you set up the conditions, like #1, so you have an easier time for stillness to permeate your body and mind.

Nice distinction between cause and conditions, I'm glad you caught that. A few hours after I wrote this post I was out drinking tea and it suddenly struck me that you were talking about conditions and not causes; great distinction.

 

The key difference between my philosophy and Bodri's is our answers to the question "what is cultivation and what is not cultivation?" and the assumptions our answers rest on. For simplicity's sake let's extend to the Brazilian jiu-jitsu analogy, let's ask what is BJJ training and what is not BJJ training. To be successful at BJJ you obviously have to have at least an intermediate level of fitness (strength, flexibility, stamina, etc.) And then perhaps not so obviously you also need a degree of intelligence, enough focus to pay attention to and make sense of teacher instructions, discipline to show up and push through difficulties, emotional resilience to bounce back from failure, etc, etc. These are all conditions for success at BJJ, some more important than others. To actually learn BJJ itself the most obvious thing that has to be present are the specific techniques of BJJ which are learned, practiced and applied over and over and over and with other people on the same path. Now, in the context of a room full of healthy people that are capable of success in BJJ but don't know anything about it yet, it could appear that what would cause them success at BJJ would be the BJJ training itself. But that is only when you look at the situation in that very specific context of pre-existing skills (fitness, intelligence, readiness, etc.) From a wider, developmental perspective, specific BJJ training is only one condition for this success. It's the most significant condition, yes, but it's dependent upon a host of other conditions that might prevent BJJ success if absent. And many of these other conditions are not specifically addressed or developed by BJJ training alone.

 

I think you see how this applies to my view of emptiness meditation and it's relationship with the Samadhi states. And this isn't even getting in to Samadhi's relationship with Enlightenment which is is even less causal than emptiness meditation's relationship with Samadhi, but that's another topic. So, yes, tasting the formless over and over is probably the most significant condition in the arising of the various depths of Samadhi. But so are birth, a healthy body-mind, nutrition, bhakti, etc., etc. Emptiness meditation is only an independent cause if you limit your context and ignore many other important conditions. Limiting your contexts like this is a good skill. It helps you make important distinctions and is how you develop a specialty. Bodri is a great specialist for this reason. He is not, ie, teaching the specifics of hatha yoga to keep your body healthy so that it can support your mind and penetrate emptiness deeper. He limits his context to "what condition is so significant to the the evolution of an enlightened being that it is always present and if it were removed enlightenment would not occur". It's a cool question and the answer he's found in his studies is "some form of emptiness practice". It's a cool answer too. I think he makes the strongly-masculine-essenced error of assuming that the only form of emptiness practice is "inward stillness to Freedom" and that this practice is somehow fundamentally different from, and superior to "outward merging with Love" (femine-essenced practice). Further, I think his elevation of "significant condition" to not only a "cause" but to "the only cause you need to bother with" is an incredibly broad stroke that leaves out many other important conditions that are of profound help to the awakening process.

 

IMO Bodri promotes his emptiness-condition-as-THE-ONLY-cause manifesto partly in the spirit of simplifying spirtual practice for busy people confused by the details of mystical knowledge, partly in an attempt to find the core unifying element common to all mystical paths and partly in an attempt to position himself as an expert with a unique angle in his niche spiritual marketing campaign. In my case, and others, it's the perceived abundance of the latter motivation that is a turn off and IMO dillutes his work with mixed intentions.

 

I agree with everything you said and you have a very good perception. But the question is: Now what? You know all this but knowing and actually experiencing Stillness in every moment are two separate things. If you don't, what are you going to do about it? If you do, how deep does it penetrate your very existence? There are many layers to this, as you may know. Emptiness meditation takes on all these questions directly as opposed to visualization practices

This is a great point. I think a disciplined emphasis on the importance of emptiness meditation is a much needed counterblast to the "it's all one so we don't need to meditate at all" stance. Personally I do emptiness meditation every morning and night, first with mantra and then in the empty afterglow post-mantra. Without this base of tasting the Formless every day, my Tantra would not have a leg to stand on.

 

The emptiness vs. visualization aspect of this discussion is a non-issue for me. I've never really cared much about that debate and I think you can see my issues with emptiness-only are much larger and more time consuming to articulate so I've mostly just stayed silent through a lot of these debates. But, briefly, microcosmic orbit, spinal breathing, tonglen, white skeleton, etc. are not merely visualization anymore than emptiness meditation is mere progressive relaxation. A big reason emptiness practice is so effective is that it teaches you to just be with the garbage that normally distracts you from ever-present Stillness without getting lost in the garbage. Through this the garbage loses its power and begins to dissolve. In spinal breathing part of what you are doing is using your awareness to move up and down your spinal channel, stirring up impurities so that they can dissolve in the mantra/emptiness practice that follows. A good analogy would be to imagine you had a device that vaporizes any dust that comes within a few feet of it. Spinal breathing is like going around your house and getting all your carpets and picking them up and shaking them out close to the vaporizer and then turning it on. Otherwise emptiness meditation is just patiently waiting for the dust to slowly seep into the atmosphere on it's own and drift over toward it. The patience and discipline developed in prolonged emptiness sitting are highly valuable to the path, but I believe spinal breathing + emptiness or maybe microcosmic orbit + inner smile are a more efficient purification sequence leading to deeper, more pervasive emptiness than just emptiness alone.

 

You have good understanding of this and I agree with most of what you said. You probably misunderstood my statement though. I don't condone sex and its relationship to cultivation. I'm talking about the quality of aroused sexual energy and its ability to transform to chi. From my observations and experience, it takes longer for this transformation to take place in its excited condition, plus you will have in addition to work with (and transform) your partner's energy as well that you give and receive through your sexual exchange. This all will take extra time. Much more time that we have. That was one of the big reasons for most spiritual schools advocating abstinence.

I agree 100%. Before creating a foundation of emptiness practice I didn't get anywhere in Tantric cultivation.

 

Nice discussion Max. Sorry if I was rude at first.

 

Sean.

[Cameron]

Awesome thread.

 

I would add Ken Cohen's view on practice.

 

1. Emptiness meditation. He says it is the most important practice. He reccomends 40 minutes in the morning and 40 minutes at night. Basically watch the breath, watch thoughts come and go, listen to all sounds etc.

 

2. Zhan Zhuang. As foundation of energy work. practice 20-40 minutes every morning. All other Taoist practices(Microcosmic Orbit,healing sounds, absorning qi from stars,sun,moon and planets, sexual qigong) are built off of the foundation.

 

And to add my 2 cents, I think there is *something* to Bodri and Max's strong emphasis on "merit" and doing good deeds. I actually find there is an energetic component to it and it is definetly healthy to do on some level.

 

Even the herbalist Ron Teeguarden says the way to develop shen is to give! he says take qi and jing tonics for the first 2 treasures(and the 3rd) but the way to develop Shen is to give others.

 

All great food for thought(or practice).

[Yoda]

1. Emptiness meditation. He says it is the most important practice. He reccomends 40 minutes in the morning and 40 minutes at night. Basically watch the breath, watch thoughts come and go, listen to all sounds etc.

 

 

He says that? Sitting? I thought he was simply standing based plus misc add-ons

[Cameron]

Go back and read the book Beavis!

 

Also his audio course on Taoism. He says emptiness practice-sitting and forgetting- is the most important practice and *drumroll*

 

It will impove qigong practice, excercise etc etc etc etc

 

Just buy the damn tapes they are like $10 on Amazon. You bought Prasara Yoga body flow and have no intention on doing it for 5 years for God's sakes.

 

*Sips Ron Teeguarden Tea*

Edited January 30, 2006 by Cameron

[sean]

And to add my 2 cents, I think there is *something* to Bodri and Max's strong emphasis on "merit" and doing good deeds. I actually find there is an energetic component to it and it is definetly healthy to do on some level.

 

Even the herbalist Ron Teeguarden says the way to develop shen is to give! he says take qi and jing tonics for the first 2 treasures(and the 3rd) but the way to develop Shen is to give others.

Today, during tonglen practice, I started spontaneously giving away my stored jing. Just letting it steam into chi in my heart and out to to people that need it. It felt amazing. I could feel all this congestion in my LTT and genitals releasing. I have a feeling this may be a very powerful application of tonglen for me.

 

Sean

[Cameron]

Very cool

[Yoda]

I really did read the book, and I just got the feeling that sitting was in the system, but not ground zero like standing.

 

I was wondering about doing tonglen from the ltt. I've never heard it done like that, but using different centers might be interesting to explore. It might help my weiner to feel like a mighty bodhisattva which could be a totally cool ego trip to take.

 

I could get a little red cape made for him. That'd be cool too!

[Smile]

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

 

Very good post Sean. I have nothing to say or to add on this. You covered everything very well.

 

To address Ian's post, the main reason I promote Emptiness meditation is two-fold. First, it's free. Any one pointed concentration- on your breath, on the candle, on the internal sound, on the sounds outside, etc. will eventuall gently guide you to many states of stillness. If you go to free Vipassana retreat, they will also will teach you what Buddha was originally teaching before it was corrupted by other people and sects of then created Buddhist religion.

 

The second reason is I feel responsible for people that i've been with for a long time on this path. And so I try to share everything I can. Well, not everything, but at least things that matter the most.

[neimad]

i been totally digging spinal breathing before my meditation, which is pretty much stillness meditation.

 

sean i like your description of how it stirs up all the impurities to be dissolved and i get that from my practice too.

 

actually the spinal breathing goes really well with my practice in which i am concentrating on the ltt, heart centre and third eye. its like the spinal breathing goes up the back route and then with my stillness/energy meditation it goes up the front.

 

the other night while lying in bed the orbit spontaneously opened up for me but it was running both directions simultaneously. very nice.

[allan-in-china]

Hey Sean,

 

In response to your first post here, the beginning meditation I was taught was an emptiness meditation, but it also had the expansive quality you talk about as feminine.

 

It was one pointed, but expanded out from there... And the result was sort of all-inclusive emptiness...

 

I'm just guessing here, but taoist practices emphasise the yin-yang, maybe it is a combination of both. As they say, inside yin, you find true yang, and vice versa.

 

My teacher described the meditation as a yang type meditation, which he said is the beginning foundation. I haven't mastered it yet, so I haven't moved onto the next, but I assume the next will be yin, but I could be completely wrong there...

 

Allan

[allan-in-china]

Hey Ian,

 

Thanks for the post on humility, what you said was really helpful, I've got big issues in this area too...

 

When I compare what I am practicing with so many other practices, I seem to say well they are wrong, what I have learned must be right.

 

Somewhere in Lie zi (Lieh zi - it is one of the three main books of taoism, with dao de jing, and zhuang zi) it says something like when I went to my teacher I didn't have opinions on anything, he ignored me; after 3 years I was always saying what was good and what was bad, he smiled at me; after ..(something and then he called me to sit next to him)... after 12 years I didn't know what was right or wrong anymore, I didn't know who or where I was, or whether I even had a teacher...

 

This is a bit of a butchering of the quote, but I think I've got the idea I was trying to convey across (and hopefully the correct meaning of the quote..argh). So basically I think this arrogance is a stage we all have to go through, I'm definitely very arrogant in the meditation and tai chi chuan areas at the moment... I know for a fact (...) that I am right and everyone else is wrong, right until my teacher sets me in line again, anyway...

 

Cheers, I'll do my best to keep it in check too...

 

Allan

[sean]

i been totally digging spinal breathing before my meditation, which is pretty much stillness meditation.

 

sean i like your description of how it stirs up all the impurities to be dissolved and i get that from my practice too.

Neimad, here is an interesting quote about blockages on the gross physiological level that I believe methods like spinal breathing help release:

 

Via Primal Contraction and Release

by Jana Dixon

"I came to the conclusion that primal contraction is held mostly in the small muscles that lie closest to the spinal column. A core of intractable tension surrounding the central nervous system, reducing energy and information to all organs including the heart and brain. To release such fundamental holding, the spine (sympathetic trunks) and plexus need to be purified, energized, opened and united in ascension, so that the vegetative, animal, human and supra-human synergistically uphold each other.

The chronic spastic back muscles compress the spine and depolarize the ganglia and nerves of the sympathetic trunks. The nervous, immune and muscular systems become exhausted through lactic acid/hypoxic conditions of muscles that fail to return to a resting state. The wound up body is not as receptive to energy from the earth or environment, nor can it adequately convey energy and information within it. Energy for healing and spiritual development is thus not freely available in the person harboring this fossilized core of tension. Of needs unmet. Kundalini or consciousness itself is thwarted in its natural streaming. There is a dampening of the awareness of impulses into and from the contracted individual, essentially cutting one off from the Life flux."

 

I'll post more about Primal Release soon.

 

Sean