Innocence

[宁]

I have a few questions:

 

What is to you mental innocence, emotional innocence, physical innocence?

Can innocence be lost?

Can it be recovered?

What are your experiences regarding Innocence?

What part does it play in your practice?

 

Thank you so much

 

yours

 

L1

[Iyoiyo]

I would say that innocence is not so much lost as covered up. If one can persuade, or allow, oneself to operate with innocence again then it can be, in a sense, "regained." This is not very easy though, as the reason we cover up innocence is to protect the mind from injury. Therefore, I think the only way to return to innocence is to return with an acceptance and understanding for the horrors of the world: so that they are no longer horrors in the way they are to a newcomer. I would not say that physical innocence exists independently from mental innocence. It's the mental consequence of what happens to our bodies that incurs the "loss," so although the source may be physical the effect is entirely mental.

[Marblehead]

I like to think that I do hold to my innocence when I am not around other people. (Well, except for my best friend.)

 

I interact with nature and my surroundings very peacefully. However, when I go out into the world I put on my mask and costume. Yeah, I know. Shame on me. But that's just the way it is.

 

I really don't know if one can live in pure (original) innocence in today's world. Too many dangers out there.

 

Peace & Love!

[Aria]

To me innocence is the ability to see the magic and wonder in the world or the sense that you can accomplish anything either mentally or physically. I feel that this is mostly lost due to social conditioning, therefore it can be regained. I am slowly doing this by recap which will allow me to gain back the power lost through all the experiences I've been through. It is very slow though but the reward is great if I persist to gain back myself but in a way where I can see the wonder of the world combined with knowledge I have.

[Encephalon]

I've come to depend on the Taoist sages of the day for clarification of these important questions. The most important element of the following piece by Deng Ming-Dao, at least to me, is the BOLD type at the end.

 

INNOCENCE

 

Black and orange butterfly --

Flying joyously.

Wings like a nun's hands:

First folder in prayer,

Then open in offering.

 

 

The world moves toward war. Leaders increase their rhetoric. Armies mass along the border. The world, it seems, never tires of conflict.

We should remember the innocent in life. The delicate, the gossamer, the beautiful. A butterfly lives for a day. It comes into the world with very little reason except to fly and mate. It does not question its destiny. It does not engage in any alchemy to extend its lifespan or to change its lot. It goes about its brief life happily.

 

A butterfly is always attracted to the beautiful. Whether it is the sun on a blade of grass or the edge of a deep ruby rose, the butterfly spends its brief time dwelling on loveliness.

 

Even the angry and insane leave the butterfly alone. Why can we not learn to honor the innocence in one another? Maybe we spend too much time dwelling on the ugly. In the name of practicality and realism, we think about strategy, defense, territory, gain, and advantage. We are too late to be like the butterfly. But at least we can honor it, and move as closely as possible to its simple existence.

[Spectrum]

there is natural merit in leaving alone that which preserves itself.

[3bob]

Core Spirit is uncorruptable, if not all would never have been.

 

Om

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I think Daoist practice and/or meditation returns a person to a state of innocence but with a wisdom that was previously absent, as has been previously mentioned here this doesn't quite gel with society, which is why many sages and enlightened ones have been considered childlike or crazy.

 

The key to return is love, first a love of your own faults and so a gradual understanding of others. Innocence lies in the space between thoughts.

[宁]

Speaking of innocence, there are a few posters here who's posts have something innocent in it. I can think of at least two, and Marblehead, you are amoung them:) The other one is cat. I don't recall now, but there must be others. Oh, I think Yoda has some too.

[Gerard]

To me is morality, which comes with karmic development.

[Marblehead]

Speaking of innocence, there are a few posters here who's posts have something innocent in it. I can think of at least two, and Marblehead, you are amoung them:) The other one is cat. I don't recall now, but there must be others. Oh, I think Yoda has some too.

 

Thanks Little 1. I am honored!

 

Peace & Love!

 

PS Yes, I love the butterfly. Perhaps the most peaceful animal on the planet. I can well understand why Chuang Tzu dreamed he was a butterlfy.

 

More Peace & Love!

Edited January 23, 2010 by Marblehead

[Pietro]

I have a few questions:

 

What is to you mental innocence, emotional innocence, physical innocence?

Can innocence be lost?

Can it be recovered?

What are your experiences regarding Innocence?

What part does it play in your practice?

 

Thank you so much

 

yours

 

L1

 

I think it's one of those things which can't be added, but can be lost or covered up.

So I would suggest to dissolve everything which is stopping you from (recovering your innocence/being innocent).

[Marblehead]

I think it's one of those things which can't be added, but can be lost or covered up.

So I would suggest to dissolve everything which is stopping you from (recovering your innocence/being innocent).

 

Hi Pietro,

 

Dr. Wang, in his "Dynamic Tao" spoke to this. He suggested that no matter how 'lost' a person becomes and how much they have lost their original innocence of Tao they are never totally lost because Tao never leaves us. So even though we can loos the Tao, Tao will never loos us. So yes, once the realization is had, all that needs be done is to recover our original innocence.

 

Peace & Love!

[宁]

Somehow we're still missing it... What is innocence, guys, girls, ehm?

[Marblehead]

Somehow we're still missing it... What is innocence, guys, girls, ehm?

 

You trying to get technical on us? Hehehe.

 

Innocence, IMO, is our original nature, our original virtue (without all the costumes and masks), "Wu Wei".

 

Peace & Love!

[forestofclarity]

I would say, it is what's there before form.

 

When a person is innocent, it is because of what they didn't do rather than what they did.

 

Somehow we're still missing it... What is innocence, guys, girls, ehm?

[Capital]

I'd say innocence is beginner's mind. It's like a baby or an animal. It's easy to get back to. It's just not easy to understand why you would want to get back to that state for many people.

 

Have you heard the new idea that those people whom frown think the most clearly? That's the kind of idea that pervades our modern society. People want faster, better, stronger; rather than simple, content, balanced. Even on The Tao Bums, everyone wants energy and powers and inner peace.

 

I've found some of my innocence again by letting go. Perhaps that's all there is to it?

[三江源]

.

Edited October 26, 2015 by 三江源

[宁]

hi cat,

 

i remember that in most of the tales i've read, the hero was pure of heart...

do you think this purity and innocence can be a 'disadvantage' in society and modern times in general?

 

thanx <)

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

hi cat,

 

i remember that in most of the tales i've read, the hero was pure of heart...

do you think this purity and innocence can be a 'disadvantage' in society and modern times in general?

 

thanx <)

 

It came to my mind while reading your and Cat's posts that purity is a key concept in Taoist Philosophy.

 

Chuang Tzu often spoke of the "pure man". That is, a person who lived the Way of Tao but yet was not considered a Sage. Indeed, innocence, pure, new-born calf, uncarved block are all words used to point to our original nature. A beautiful example of that is the picture Stig just posted.

 

Peace & Love!

[Pietro]

Somehow we're still missing it... What is innocence, guys, girls, ehm?

 

Hey Little1,

the reason why no one is answering you, is because innocence... does not exist.

 

Now before you start all crucifying me, let me explain. You can be more or less innocent about something, but innocence, in itself, does not exist.

It is a privative, something that does not exist, even though we act as if it existed. There are many privatives in life, and it's good to recognise them.

I started a thread on this some time ago. You might want to reread that.

 

Other privatives are freedom, cold, darkness. Things that are generally defined as the absence of something.

 

So you can say that something is less innocent than something else, but nothing will be totally innocent. As such the question "what is innocence?" does not make sense. What does make sense is to ask: "how can I me more innocent?", or how can I be "as innocent as...?", or "how can I recover the level of innocence I had when ...?".

 

As of "how can I be more innocent?", I will stick to my suggestion of dissolving what is not innocent. You will not reach being "totally" innocent. But you will reach a level that you will consider satisfactory. And then you can move on.

 

Oh, yes, other privatives are perfection, and enlightenment.

 

And now, I'll start running :-)

[宁]

Thanx Pietro, nice thread, I'll read it...

Innocence...

Well, let me pull the rabbit out of the hat: actually i AM hinting to something...

Just wondered if anyone else had the same feeling.

If not i guess i'll just drop it... being a privative, it can't be shared eheh

[Stigweard]

Perhaps innocence is all about not trying to define innocence

[Pietro]

Perhaps innocence is all about not trying to define innocence

 

It's like being

if you try to be , you are not ,

but if you do not try to be

you are not necessarily