Forgiveness

[3bob]

Judith Herman, M.D., is considered to be the leading authority on PTSD. Here is an excerpt from Trauma and Recovery on the topic of forgiveness:

 

"During the process of mourning, the survivor must come to terms with the impossibility of getting even. As she vents her rage in safety, her helpless fury gradually changes into a more powerful form of anger: righteous indignation. This transformation allows the survivor to free herself from the prison of the revenge fantasy, in which she is alone with the perpetrator. It offfers her a way to regain a sense of power without becoming a criminal herself. Giving up on the fantasy of revenge does not mean giving up the quest for justice; on the contrary, it begins the process of joining others to hold the perpetrator accountable for his crimes.

 

Revolted by the fantasy of revenge, some survivors attempt to bypass their outrage altogether through a fantasy of forgiveness. This fantasy, like its polar opposite, is an attempt at empowerment. The survivor imagines that she can transcend her rage and the impact of the trauma through a willed, defiant act of love. But it is not possible to exorcise the trauma, through either hatred or love. Like revenge, the fantasy of forgiveness often becomes a cruel torture, because it remains out of reach for most ordinary human beings. Folk wisdom recognizes that to forgive is divine. And even divine forgiveness, in most religious systems, is not unconditional. True forgiveness cannot be granted until the perpetrator has sought and and earned it through confession, repentance, and restitution."

 

That last sentence is debateable to me. For instance, does the Tao forgive?

If you care to share - what is your experience or take on this excerpt and on the matter of forgiveness?

 

Om

[Sundragon]

If I may add a thought.

 

No, the Tao (or Brahman/Self/Atman) doesn't forgive in the sense of an external being granting pardon. The only forgiveness is from you to you or you to others/another. One can call upon Divine Grace in order to help one have the strength to forgive. One can even ask the Divine (by whatever name) for forgiveness but realize that this is a psychological tool to help one forgive one's self anyway. My understanding of God is that there is no decision to forgive because the Divine is Love and Love forgives out of its very nature. For the Divine to withold forgiveness would be akin to love hating or love desiring to do harm...it is a contradiction as great as a blazing inferno being bitter cold to the touch.

 

The good Dr. is wrong. Forgiveness can and often must take place without any acts of restitution or repentance. The Dr.'s manner of thinking imprisons the victim of injustice creating a co-dependency whereby the victim cannot heal until the perpetrator makes amends. This is extremely destructive and can keep an individual victimized for the rest of his/her life. I have forgiven cruelties done against me by individuals I haven't seen in years and these individuals made no gestures of pennance toward me. I forgave them in order to free myself from the prison of anger, resentment and grief.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Sundragon

[Marblehead]

I am in full agreement with the good Doctor. (Sorry Sundragon.)

 

Forgiveness is a tricky subject to discuss. Forgiving is not as easy as it seems to be up front.

 

Now, I'm not saying that forgiveness is useless. I does have its place in our life. But to forgive someone who does not deserve forgiveness is just setting oneself up for more abuse and disappointments.

 

Prevention, of course, is best. That is, to live one's life so that no one ever does anything to us that needs forgiving.

 

But then, revenge isn't all that useful either. As mentioned above, in the process of gaining revenge we might become a criminal as well. And, as always, two wrongs do not make a right.

 

But regardless, if we are wronged the act is now in the past. Nothing can be done to change history. However, there were lessons regarding the event that should be learned. After learning the lessons we take action to insure that the same thing does not happen over and over again.

 

Accidental actions, of course, can be forgiven if the person who caused the 'problem' displays a sincere regret for what happened. We need to be careful even here though because the actions of that person may be something that is deeply rooted in the persons character traits and only comes out during certain conditions.

 

And I will suggest that 'love your enemy' doesn't work. If you do that, more often than not, you are just setting yourself up for more abuse and disappointment.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sundragon]

With apologies to Marblehead with whom I must respectfully disagree.

 

Forgiveness is always beneficial because forgiveness does in no way imply forgetfulness or weakness. Forgiveness takes more inner strength than holding onto the past. Just because one chooses to forgive, in order to heal themselves, that doesn't imply that they are again open to the same hurt. Forgiveness doesn't eradicate the learnings one gains from experience forgiveness simply removes the destructive emotional charge that accompanies the memory of a damaging event.

 

If I am repeatedly punched in the face by an individual when walking on the left side of the road I can forgive the individual who tends to punch me when I walk on the left side of the road while still acting with wisdom by walking on the right side of the roadfrom now on. Forgiveness doesn't erase the wisdom of experience. Forgiveness allows wisdom to flower because it allows the individual to percieve events from a higher perspective...one free of suffering.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Sundragon

[C T]

When we forgive, we immediately and consciously release the powerfully negative grip the offending person/situation has on us. When forgiveness is refused or denied, the only person left in the prison is ourselves.

 

Have a listen to what this man has to say. Its from a Christian perspective, but the wisdom and the spirit of the speaker transcends all creeds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WUsr689Y4&feature=related

 

thanks for watching. have a good weekend y'all

 

 

 

 

PS - Enjoyed your posts Sundragon. Wise words indeed.

[Marblehead]

Oh, feel sure that I was aware that I would get some resistance from my Buddhist and Christian friends to my post.

 

I did not disagree with the intention of suggesting 'right' or 'wrong'.

 

I was only speaking from my personal knowledge based on my own personal experiences. Perhaps the lessons I have learned from my experiences have been misunderstood by myself. Doesn't matter, really though.

 

Sundragon,regarding your example of walking on the wrong side of the road: any side of the road I walk on is the right side of the road. I will NOT, EVER, allow anyone to dictate to me such things. Even before the person punched me in the face the first time they would be butt on the sidewalk. That's just the way my life is. I have given into others' desires far too often and laerned that when you give in they only take more advantage of me. I no longer allow this. And the evil person, after you have started walking on the other side of the road will go to that side and do the same thing to you. If we allow others to take advantage of us many will do it in a heart-beat.

 

 

No, forgiving an evil doer for their wrongs is not my responsibility. I place the responsibility on the wrong-doer. I hold to nothing because it is their evil gift to hold. Therefore I have no need to forgive and I hold no responsibility for their actions. I have nothing to let go of because the act is already in the past. Now sure, if we live in the past then we have a problem.

 

So we protect ourself today so that we have no wrongs done to us in the future and thereby we will neer have the need to forgive.

 

But then, if I have done a wrong to someone then I am dependant on their frogiveness before I could ever forgive myself. If my action was done intentionally then "Shame on me!" but if it was accidental I would expect forgiveness after I had made proper restitution.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

The good Dr. is wrong. Forgiveness can and often must take place without any acts of restitution or repentance. The Dr.'s manner of thinking imprisons the victim of injustice creating a co-dependency whereby the victim cannot heal until the perpetrator makes amends. This is extremely destructive and can keep an individual victimized for the rest of his/her life. I have forgiven cruelties done against me by individuals I haven't seen in years and these individuals made no gestures of pennance toward me. I forgave them in order to free myself from the prison of anger, resentment and grief.

 

From what I've seen I'm inclined to agree that anger, hatred and vengeance simply traps the individual and can, if strong enough ultimately destroy them.... and sometimes does.

 

 

Oh, feel sure that I was aware that I would get some resistance from my Buddhist and Christian friends to my post.

 

I did not disagree with the intention of suggesting 'right' or 'wrong'.

 

I was only speaking from my personal knowledge based on my own personal experiences. Perhaps the lessons I have learned from my experiences have been misunderstood by myself. Doesn't matter, really though.

 

Sundragon,regarding your example of walking on the wrong side of the road: any side of the road I walk on is the right side of the road. I will NOT, EVER, allow anyone to dictate to me such things. Even before the person punched me in the face the first time they would be butt on the sidewalk. That's just the way my life is. I have given into others' desires far too often and laerned that when you give in they only take more advantage of me. I no longer allow this. And the evil person, after you have started walking on the other side of the road will go to that side and do the same thing to you. If we allow others to take advantage of us many will do it in a heart-beat.

 

 

No, forgiving an evil doer for their wrongs is not my responsibility. I place the responsibility on the wrong-doer. I hold to nothing because it is their evil gift to hold. Therefore I have no need to forgive and I hold no responsibility for their actions. I have nothing to let go of because the act is already in the past. Now sure, if we live in the past then we have a problem.

 

So we protect ourself today so that we have no wrongs done to us in the future and thereby we will neer have the need to forgive.

 

But then, if I have done a wrong to someone then I am dependant on their frogiveness before I could ever forgive myself. If my action was done intentionally then "Shame on me!" but if it was accidental I would expect forgiveness after I had made proper restitution.

 

Peace & Love!

 

So....Marblehead, my question is simply do you allow a repetitive anger filled hatred to play out again and again in your mind, or, as I suspect, do you simply let it go without making the conscious decision to forgive? If this is what you do(and I suspect this is what you're getting at)then I would say you have reached another point perhaps equally as useful :passivity/neutrality. That would work.

 

Am I right? ? ?

[Marblehead]

 

So....Marblehead, my question is simply do you allow a repetitive anger filled hatred to play out again and again in your mind, or, as I suspect, do you simply let it go without making the conscious decision to forgive? If this is what you do(and I suspect this is what you're getting at)then I would say you have reached another point perhaps equally as useful :passivity/neutrality. That would work.

 

Am I right? ? ?

 

Hi Ninpo,

 

Please remember my age (I am well aged) and my situation (retired and single).

 

What we are talking about here, IMO, is our emotions. Specifically, emotions that we hold inside that in turn require the need to forgive.

 

As with all my emotions, I feel that it is absolutely necessary to release one's emotions as soon as possible after the cause of the emotions have been presented. If someone caused me joy I will give them a hug or whatever is appropriate. If someone caused me anger I will release my anger, if not immediately, as soon as possible.

 

Here's the thing. Repressed emotions eat away our insides. We can never attain inner peace as long as we hold these emotions within. Sure, maybe over time we will just forget but just think of all our life-time we waste trying to forget.

 

In a situation where I cannot do anything about the cause of the emotion then I do, yes, just feel the emotion, acknowledge it, say "Oh, well" and let it go. Sure, sometimes it take a little while but if we don't allow our mind to linger on it it will soon pass.

 

Yes, I think neutrality would work just fine. I will stress my understanding that neutrality and passivity are different 'states of being'. To remain neutral prevents one from acquiring any of the negative emotions. Passivity though, will set one up for abuse by others. Remaining neutral means you do not take a side regarding the opinions of others but it does not mean that we do not defend ourself and those things that are considered by law ours.

 

Passivity is nice, I suppose, if it is used for the purpose of pleasing or helping others just as long as we are cautious to not allow others to take an unfair advantage of us.

 

The original post wa speaking to PTSD and I think it was much to do with women who get sexually abuse. A lot of women (and young girls) who are at a disadvantage here because they do not have the ability to prevent it and they do not have a means for dealing with it after the fact so the abuse and its memory stays within. This is where the need to forgive comes into play, I think. But if we can just let go of all the hurt and anger there really is no need to forgive. And like I said, I think it is very useful to place the responsibility on the person who committed the unacceptable act instead of holding on to the memory and somehow blaming one's self for what happened.

 

I hope this makes sense. I will explain further if there are questions.

 

Peace & Love!

[Iyoiyo]

I too think that one can forgive without forgetting. We can forgive, and understand, whatever happened against us without walking into similar situations again and again. For example I might forgive somebody for mugging me in a bad neighborhood. Just because I have forgiven them does not mean that I'll continue to walk in tough neighborhoods after dark. I consider forgiveness very important, because if you don't learn to forgive your mind will be entangled in dark thoughts for a very long time, and nothing good will come of it.

[3bob]

A comment about the saying of, "love thine enemy", this is a teaching of spiritual/mystical transmutation and transformation that is not exactly taken up or possible for most of us beginners,(so to speak)... since imo it would take a very deep understanding of the true nature of things, which includes a deep understanding of good and evil along with the power of not to being overtaken or taken advantage of by same. (thus a miraculous transmutation and transformation is possible with this teaching!!!)

 

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do"

 

Om

Edited January 23, 2010 by 3bob

[doc benway]

I don't interpret the author as saying that forgiveness is impossible or inadvisable. She is saying that for most people, forgiveness will not be successful at eliminating the pain and memory of trauma and will not solve the problem of PTSD.

 

"The survivor imagines that she can transcend her rage and the impact of the trauma through a willed, defiant act of love. But it is not possible to exorcise the trauma, through either hatred or love."

 

I imagine that if we had more of Dr. Herman's thoughts to consider we may have a better understanding of her thoughts and recommendations on the subject. What has been quoted her is a very limited snippet and would be easy to misinterpret. I happen to agree with everything Dr. Herman says. I live with a victim of PTSD and her descriptions are quite accurate, IME.

[3bob]

If I may add a thought.

 

No, the Tao (or Brahman/Self/Atman) doesn't forgive in the sense of an external being granting pardon. The only forgiveness is from you to you or you to others/another. One can call upon Divine Grace in order to help one have the strength to forgive. One can even ask the Divine (by whatever name) for forgiveness but realize that this is a psychological tool to help one forgive one's self anyway. My understanding of God is that there is no decision to forgive because the Divine is Love and Love forgives out of its very nature. For the Divine to withold forgiveness would be akin to love hating or love desiring to do harm...it is a contradiction as great as a blazing inferno being bitter cold to the touch.

 

The good Dr. is wrong. Forgiveness can and often must take place without any acts of restitution or repentance. The Dr.'s manner of thinking imprisons the victim of injustice creating a co-dependency whereby the victim cannot heal until the perpetrator makes amends. This is extremely destructive and can keep an individual victimized for the rest of his/her life. I have forgiven cruelties done against me by individuals I haven't seen in years and these individuals made no gestures of pennance toward me. I forgave them in order to free myself from the prison of anger, resentment and grief.

 

Hello Sundragon,

 

Some ramblings from me:

There is a sense that purely karmic law does not forgive, yet if there was only karmic law then a forgiveness with the possibilities of going beyond an exacting, mechanical like, cause and effect wheel of fate could never be attained... and one might ask how does the Spirit of Love use karmic mechanics to bring about an arising to or an awakening to the Spirit?

 

Om

[rain]

you must punch that nose and get over the fact that you did and didn't get even or anywhere doing it

[Marblehead]

you must punch that nose and get over the fact that you did and didn't get even or anywhere doing it

 

I am so tempted to respond to that but I shall hold my tongue.

 

Peace & Love!

[Non]

One can forgive but not forget. One can forgive and still be wise. The doctor is talking about forgiveness, ONLY, and at the same time being complacent. One can forgive and still do the right thing, make justice, but it wouldn't be revenge after there is forgiveness, it's justice.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Non

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Forgiveness is its own trap, entangling a process of conceived agendas.. Just 'let it go'.. Yes, Marblehead, caution born of experience is wisdom, in-as-much-as that caution doesn't turn to prejudice.. dwelling on the past is living in the past.. so, i greet every one with a 'clean slate', even those that have transgressed, but.. experience identifies appropriate action prior to repeated occurances.. Forgiveness is an unnecessary mental ritual, the very act of which confirms the past is still a burden..

 

Be well..

[Non]

Greetings..

 

Forgiveness is its own trap, entangling a process of conceived agendas.. Just 'let it go'.. Yes, Marblehead, caution born of experience is wisdom, in-as-much-as that caution doesn't turn to prejudice.. dwelling on the past is living in the past.. so, i greet every one with a 'clean slate', even those that have transgressed, but.. experience identifies appropriate action prior to repeated occurances.. Forgiveness is an unnecessary mental ritual, the very act of which confirms the past is still a burden..

 

Be well..

 

I thought forgiveness was letting go.

[Non]

Anyways, I think we need to agree on what is forgiveness. Because for now it's just a word and people here disagree on what it means to 'forgive'.

 

People use generalizations to come to more conclusive generalizations but it's still generalizations anyway...

Edited January 24, 2010 by Non

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I thought forgiveness was letting go

No, Forgiveness has a bunch of conceptual attachments.. 'letting go', is simply moving on, without attachment.. often, 'forgiveness' is attached to ritualistic process, evaluations, and justice judgments.. 'letting go', just moves on.. reminding me of the of the monk asking the master, "why did you violate your vows and carry that girl across the stream?".. the master's reply,"i sat her down on the other side, why do you still carry her?"..

 

Be well..

[3bob]

forgiveness is not an intellectual/conceptual process... it is from the tempered heart and a wisdom that sees the greater possibilities of healing for all parties involved and stands open before same, along with the will to carry through and make such a reality.

 

Om

[Encephalon]

I don't interpret the author as saying that forgiveness is impossible or inadvisable. She is saying that for most people, forgiveness will not be successful at eliminating the pain and memory of trauma and will not solve the problem of PTSD.

 

"The survivor imagines that she can transcend her rage and the impact of the trauma through a willed, defiant act of love. But it is not possible to exorcise the trauma, through either hatred or love."

 

I imagine that if we had more of Dr. Herman's thoughts to consider we may have a better understanding of her thoughts and recommendations on the subject. What has been quoted her is a very limited snippet and would be easy to misinterpret. I happen to agree with everything Dr. Herman says. I live with a victim of PTSD and her descriptions are quite accurate, IME.

 

I have to agree. A careful reading is necessary to put the author's points in proper context.

[Marblehead]

... caution born of experience is wisdom, in-as-much-as that caution doesn't turn to prejudice.. dwelling on the past is living in the past...

 

This is an important concept so I thought I would repeat it. We should neve attatch an action by one person to any stereotyped group. Stereotyping leads to prjudice and prejudice leads to discrimination. "Judge the individual according to the individual." (Paraphrased from something Lao Tzu said.)

 

And I agree, if there is a need for forgiveness it means that we are living in the past.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

forgiveness is not an intellectual/conceptual process... it is from the tempered heart and a wisdom that sees the greater possibilities of healing for all parties involved and stands open before same, along with the will to carry through and make such a reality.

 

Om

 

Hi Bob,

 

I don't normally disagree with you but I must on this one. Forgiveness helps only the one who is forgiving. It does nothing for the one who has caused the need for forgiveness. The need for forgiveness was created by the person who could not just let the event go and continued to hold a grudge. We placed a value judgement on the actions of another person. We created the need for forgiveness.

 

Until the person who caused the harm has truely shown their remorse for what they have done forgiveness does not effect them in the least. And foriving them before they have become remorseful for what they have done is only a ticket to do the same thing again.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hi Bob,

 

I don't normally disagree with you but I must on this one. Forgiveness helps only the one who is forgiving. It does nothing for the one who has caused the need for forgiveness. The need for forgiveness was created by the person who could not just let the event go and continued to hold a grudge. We placed a value judgement on the actions of another person. We created the need for forgiveness.

 

Until the person who caused the harm has truely shown their remorse for what they have done forgiveness does not effect them in the least. And foriving them before they have become remorseful for what they have done is only a ticket to do the same thing again.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hi MH,

 

These "events" are also energy... and the untwisting or unbinding of energy helps all

parties, including the one that is seen as having caused the harm in that they to have a new possibility or opening to see the harm that they have done which before they had probably justified and blindly held onto... such is not of a tit-for-tat forgiveness which is often the human norm, nor even the easier situation when one says they are sorry and then forgiveness can take place. It also doesn't mean repetiton of the harm is allowed, nor does it guarantee that another will come around, but it does give the possibility for such. While on the other hand how can there can be a true or complete "letting go" when energy remains twisted in more difficult situations, even if we tuck such hurt away someplace safe where it seemingly can't effect us, for such energy is still around in many cases - perhaps smoldering in our sub-conscious.

[Marblehead]

Yep, Bob, I can't argue with what you have said.

 

I just felt the need to point out that forgiveness is not a one-sided affair.

 

And I agree, as long as there is negative energy flowing there is little chance for peaceful conditions to exist when the two effected are in close circumstances.

 

I'm not trying to negate the value of forgiveness, I am only trying to point out that unless we can forgive and totally let go there is little chance for inner peace especially when some condition recalls the event.

 

I would never be able to forgive Hitler for what he did. Some events in life are just unforgivable. And I hesitate to say this but sometimes only restitution will allow for total letting go.

 

Peace & Love!