Electric Qigong School

[Brian]

[SonOfTheGods]

Why is that?

 

A small red LED lamp would have been a much better demonstration- IMO

[thelerner]

To those who went to the nearest lamp, unscrewed the light bulb and tried to light it up with Chi... you will waste a lot of Jing trying things like this.

I've got better things to waste my jing on

 

I tend to take these things in a case by case basis and I'm comfortable in Don't Know territory.  You shouldn't close your mind, looks can be deceiving but the greater the claim the more definitive proof needed.  And when things drop you straight into a advertisement then I tend to be even more skeptical. 

 

I also think some 'frauds' are infact high level people.  Its just the things they can do, the healing the gi gung is not very impressive on video, so they romanticize the art with a little trickery and put it on film.   Yet they are legitimate masters, its just the West is polluted by stereotypes and special effects. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by thelerner

[Brian]

I'd much prefer to see one of these guys demonstrate their abilities with one of these:

 

 

[MooNiNite]

Because they don't have the same lightbulb as the guy in the video.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I'd much prefer to see one of these guys demonstrate their abilities with one of these:

 

 

 

Does that work on real practitioners? 

 

JC lit up an led, does that mean this would show?

[Silent Answers]

Does that work on real practitioners?

 

JC lit up an led, does that mean this would show?

If I remember correctly, some experiments have been done. I think the results were no voltage but a significant increase in amperage.

[vonkrankenhaus]

There is a substantial amount of info on "bioelectricity" studies of all types both online and in books & other media.

 

Robert O. Becker's book "The Body Electric" is a consumer classic intro.

 

There are studies all over about electric eels, rays, and other animals that are fairly detailed.

 

The popular book "The Secret Life of Plants" also has some basic material about bioelectric effects.

 

Most kids had played with analog TVs and radios, waving their hands and changing receptions, etc.

 

There are joke shops probably that still sell "electric man" gag, with little battery pack.

 

Books on stage magic and electronic hobby exist showing many more.

 

There are many musings and thoughts about bioelectricity in some of Yang Jwing Ming's early books that reveal how distant this subject has actually been in traditional qigong trainings..

 

So there are many parts of an introduction to this subject around.

 

Also info about biophotons and biomagnetism.

 

 

The "lightbulb guy" in the video - you can likely find him at the Joke Shop part of your explorations.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[MooNiNite]

There is a substantial amount of info on "bioelectricity" studies of all types both online and in books & other media.

 

Robert O. Becker's book "The Body Electric" is a consumer classic intro.

 

There are studies all over about electric eels, rays, and other animals that are fairly detailed.

 

The popular book "The Secret Life of Plants" also has some basic material about bioelectric effects.

 

Most kids had played with analog TVs and radios, waving their hands and changing receptions, etc.

 

There are joke shops probably that still sell "electric man" gag, with little battery pack.

 

Books on stage magic and electronic hobby exist showing many more.

 

There are many musings and thoughts about bioelectricity in some of Yang Jwing Ming's early books that reveal how distant this subject has actually been in traditional qigong trainings..

 

So there are many parts of an introduction to this subject around.

 

Also info about biophotons and biomagnetism.

 

 

The "lightbulb guy" in the video - you can likely find him at the Joke Shop part of your explorations.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

You really think John Chang is fake? Why so?

[Aeran]

There is a substantial amount of info on "bioelectricity" studies of all types both online and in books & other media.

 

Robert O. Becker's book "The Body Electric" is a consumer classic intro.

 

There are studies all over about electric eels, rays, and other animals that are fairly detailed.

 

The popular book "The Secret Life of Plants" also has some basic material about bioelectric effects.

 

Most kids had played with analog TVs and radios, waving their hands and changing receptions, etc.

 

There are joke shops probably that still sell "electric man" gag, with little battery pack.

 

Books on stage magic and electronic hobby exist showing many more.

 

There are many musings and thoughts about bioelectricity in some of Yang Jwing Ming's early books that reveal how distant this subject has actually been in traditional qigong trainings..

 

So there are many parts of an introduction to this subject around.

 

Also info about biophotons and biomagnetism.

 

 

The "lightbulb guy" in the video - you can likely find him at the Joke Shop part of your explorations.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Yes yes yes, it can faked, we know that.

 

I could make a fake video of myself bench pressing 300kg. Doesn't mean it's impossible for a human to bench that much.

 

I'd still like to know why you feel specifically that it's impossible, either in this video in particular or in general on a theoretical level.

 

And if this is impossible, what do you feel is possible with Qi? Why one, but not the other?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Aeran

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"I'd still like to know why you feel specifically that it's impossible, either in this video in particular or in general on a theoretical level."

-----

 

I never wrote that anything was "impossible".

 

You took a leap and assumed I did.

 

What I wrote was that the video shows a trick, not "electric qi".

 

In terms of "what is possible" - I have been studying that my entire conscious life.

 

I have train qigong and neigong now for over 40 years, and that after several years studying other things, and studying many other things during that. 13 different countries I go and meet various people, study.

 

I have seen people fly up and hit 12-foot ceilings from standing still.

 

I have seen people make sparks fly off of objects.

 

I have seen people change the weather back and forth on command.

 

I have seen people point at a flying insect and the insect instantly fall down on the ground, then they point again, even hours later, and insect gets up and fly away.

 

I knew a guy that could hold up his palm for a moment and knock people down, make a huge palm bruise appear on chest or back.

 

I actually cannot list all the things I have seen related to this subject - too many.

 

But I have seen many many tricks, too, in demonstrations of all kinds.

 

The light bulb video is showing a trick.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Aeran]

What I wrote was that the video shows a trick, not "electric qi".

 

Except you have absolutely no evidence either way, you're leaping to conclusions based on preexisting assumptions. To back your statement up, you either need some reason to believe that that video in particular is fraudulent (ie. some kind of first hand inside knowledge regarding the individual involved and/or the events being filmed), or some reason to believe that it's inherently impossible to light up a lightbulb using Qi. If someone can make sparks fly off objects, or levitate/be thrown 12 feet, or alter the weather, why can't they light up a lightbulb?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Aeran

[Brian]

In my opinion, demonstrating energetic ability by channeling Uncle Fester is like demonstrating the ability to make objects materialize out of thin air by pulling a coin from behind a kid's ear. Anyone with the ability to light a lightbulb also has the ability to generate measurable voltage, charge and current, and this would absolutely show up on a simple multimeter.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Are people looking for the decoder ring here?

 

Anyone who can light up a 400-watt light bulb can blow a VOM meter all over the place, and would do so before or instead of doing lightbulb gag.

 

There are LED bulbs that light up with very low voltage off a hearing aid battery.

 

There are LED bulbs that will light up if we touch them to a powered surface and then ground them by just touching a finger.

 

Examples I give do not require electricity and do not really produce electricity.

 

But are examples of qi cultivation.

 

Guy who stops insect - meters put between him and insect read nothing as insect stops and falls.

 

Does anyone here actually do qigong, or actually study electricity?

 

I am willing to discuss -- but what is our common frame of reference then?

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[ralis]

This is what I want to see as a real demonstration of electric Qigong.

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

Edited November 6, 2015 by ralis

[Aeran]

Are people looking for the decoder ring here?

 

Anyone who can light up a 400-watt light bulb can blow a VOM meter all over the place, and would do so before or instead of doing lightbulb gag.

 

There are LED bulbs that light up with very low voltage off a hearing aid battery.

 

There are LED bulbs that will light up if we touch them to a powered surface and then ground them by just touching a finger.

 

Examples I give do not require electricity and do not really produce electricity.

 

But are examples of qi cultivation.

 

Guy who stops insect - meters put between him and insect read nothing as insect stops and falls.

 

Does anyone here actually do qigong, or actually study electricity?

 

I am willing to discuss -- but what is our common frame of reference then?

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I'm pretty sure everyone here practices qi gong (or a related art) in some form or another, so I'm not sure why you keep jumping to that. But qi gong is a vast field made up of many different systems which work with different energies in different ways and produce different results. Just because one practitioner can do X but not Y, doesn't mean there isn't another who can do Y but not X, or one who can do both, or one who can't do either but can do Z.

 

You keep repeating the same argument over and over again, "it can be faked, therefore it's not real" and "I've never seen it, therefore it's not real." Both of which even the most basic logic can shut down instantly.

 

 

In my opinion, demonstrating energetic ability by channeling Uncle Fester is like demonstrating the ability to make objects materialize out of thin air by pulling a coin from behind a kid's ear. Anyone with the ability to light a lightbulb also has the ability to generate measurable voltage, charge and current, and this would absolutely show up on a simple multimeter.

 

Which could all just as easily be faked - and would go against the whole point of giving a dramatic demonstration to a large audience. If someone wants to hunt this guy down and hook him up to a meter and see what happens, then by all means, but until then, why not just accept that we don't know?

Edited November 7, 2015 by Aeran

[Silent Answers]

On the fence is the most painful place to sit.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"You keep repeating the same argument over and over again, "it can be faked, therefore it's not real" and "I've never seen it, therefore it's not real." Both of which even the most basic logic can shut down instantly."

-----

 

That's actually false - I never wrote what you quoted, I am making no argument,

 

-----

",,, by all means, but until then, why not just accept that we don't know?"

-----

 

I fully accept that you don't know.

 

I was trying to help you know, but you aren't having any of that.

 

-----

",,,qi gong is a vast field made up of many different systems which work with different energies in different ways and produce different results. Just because one practitioner can do X but not Y, doesn't mean there isn't another who can do Y but not X, or one who can do both, or one who can't do either but can do Z."

-----

 

How long you been doing any of it?

 

How long have I?

 

How long has the guy in the lightbulb video?

 

What else can you teach me about this?

 

Since we aren't learning about what I know, could you explain this stuff in more detail as you see it?

 

I'm just interested in the topic.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Aeran]

That's actually false - I never wrote what you quoted, I am making no argument,

 

Perhaps not in so many words, but it's been your train of logic for the entire discussion. 

 

I fully accept that you don't know.

 

Good, so do I.

 

I was trying to help you know, but you aren't having any of that.

 

That would be a bit hard, since you yourself don't know. The difference is that I at least know that I don't know.

 

We've been down this road before. I ask you if you know whether what happened in the video is fake and how you know this, and you respond by insinuating that it's fake because it's possible that it's fake (in which case all Qi phenomena are fake, for the purpose of this discussion, as any of them can be faked on video), or it's fake because it isn't in line with the phenomena you've personally witnessed being performed with Qi or similar (in which case you happen to be the one person in the entire known history of humankind who, by complete chance through their few decades in a field, managed to learn everything there is to know or ever will be to know about that field). 

 

What you haven't done is given any reasoning to support the idea that either:

 

A ) This specific case is fake, either through examination of the video which demonstrates positive evidence that he's performing an illusion and not producing a genuine phenomena, or through some personal experience with the individual involved which supports the idea that he is incapable of the phenomena being demonstrated

 

B ) The phenomenon being demonstrated is inherently impossible.

 

-----

",,,qi gong is a vast field made up of many different systems which work with different energies in different ways and produce different results. Just because one practitioner can do X but not Y, doesn't mean there isn't another who can do Y but not X, or one who can do both, or one who can't do either but can do Z."

-----

 

How long you been doing any of it?

 

Regular practice? just under 4 years. Research and dabbling? One and off for 14 or so. 

 

How long have I?

 

No idea, although I suspect you brought it up because it's a lot longer than me and that somehow overrides your faulty reasoning.

 

How long has the guy in the lightbulb video?

 

No clue. I have no idea who he is, and before this thread was made I had no idea that he even existed. For all I know, he might be a fraud who's never practiced a day in his life.

 

What else can you teach me about this?

 

About qi gong? Or about basic logic and reasoning?

 

Since we aren't learning about what I know, could you explain this stuff in more detail as you see it?

 

The only explanation I'm trying to make is the one I made on the first page:

 

"I have no idea if this guy is legit or not - in fact I have no idea who he is and had never heard of him until I clicked this thread, but automatically writing someone off as a fraud without definite reasons to make the accusation is childish, close minded and rude. Why not just accept that you have no idea who this guy is and what he is or isn't capable of and leave it at that?

 

 

...

 

 

I'm not trying to prove anything or claiming to know anything, except that the attitude of making assumptions about things you know nothing about is counterproductive.

 

It's the same attitude which leads people to believe that everything discussed on this board (spirituality, metaphysical energies, etc) is "new age nonsense" or "pseudo-science" or "superstitious woo" or however they prefer to term it - they haven't experienced something and/or they lack the knowledge to understand how it could occur, so they automatically assume that it couldn't occur instead of just accepting that it could potentially be an aspect of reality which is outside of their range of knowledge/experience at the present.

 

It's the kind of faulty logic and close-minded thinking which holds back serious inquiry into any field of knowledge."

Edited November 8, 2015 by Aeran

[Brian]

My grand-nephew (my brother's grandson) has profound magical abilities.

 

He is eight years old and he has been practicing card tricks. They are the type of tricks one would expect from a second-grader and, in fact, I remember learning some of them myself when I was his age.

 

I didn't debunk him, however, and prove them to be tricks -- so we must now assume that, even though he still reads most of them from the instruction book, that he is truly magical.

 

Pretty cool, huh?

[vonkrankenhaus]

I guess this is just another area of inquiry defeated by "logic".

 

Logic must suffice when experience and understanding are passed by.

 

But I will "illogically" write it again - the light bulb video is showing a trick, not qi cultivation.

 

I do not write this out of love of "logic".

 

I do not write this as a demonstration of "logic".

 

Logic is useless for me.

 

It got left behind like a pen that ran out of ink.

 

In the 45+ years I have been studying and training in qigong and neigong.

 

Electric qi I first became interested in about 1964.

 

About 13 countries I travelled, meeting many people.

 

I have many many experiences with this.

 

But almost no "logic" whatseover for you.

 

Just experience and understanding.

 

Life can be like that, because it is.

 

-----

"It's the kind of faulty logic and close-minded thinking which holds back serious inquiry into any field of knowledge."

-----

 

Baloney. For "serious inquiry" to be held back, it must first at least start happening.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Edited November 8, 2015 by vonkrankenhaus

[Aeran]

My grand-nephew (my brother's grandson) has profound magical abilities.

 

He is eight years old and he has been practicing card tricks. They are the type of tricks one would expect from a second-grader and, in fact, I remember learning some of them myself when I was his age.

 

I didn't debunk him, however, and prove them to be tricks -- so we must now assume that, even though he still reads most of them from the instruction book, that he is truly magical.

 

Pretty cool, huh?

 

I never said it should be assumed that the video is true - I said that we shouldn't make assumptions either way.

 

I guess I just hoped at least some people posting on a board about practicing arts which entails phenomena which are well outside the mainstream scientific materialist/reductionist view of reality would be a bit less dogmatic about these things and more able to accept that there are possibilities within existence which they aren't aware of either way, since they've (presumably) actively experienced things which are, by society's standard, impossible, but it appears that isn't the case.

 

Brian, you practice Stillness-Movement, right? By the same chain of reasoning, I should automatically discount all of those videos of people bouncing around as Ya Mu heals them and assume that the man is a fraud, because they could be faked far more easily than lighting up a lightbulb.

 

 

Logic must suffice when experience and understanding are passed by.

 

Yikes. Ok, sure thing.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Aeran

[Silent Answers]

The difference is somebody like YaMu is demonstrating interactively an healing art and doesn't give off the same desperado street magic vibe.

 

There's keeping an open mind, and then there's being desperate to believe and accomplish extraordinary power for self satisfaction.

[Aeran]

The difference is somebody like YaMu is demonstrating interactively an healing art and doesn't give off the same desperado street magic vibe. 

 

There's nothing interactive about a video of people jumping around after someone points at them. Unless you were actually the person being hit with the Qi, there's absolutely no way of knowing whether what he's doing is legitimate or not.

 

What does vibe have to do with it? What exactly would make the video a "serious" demonstration instead of "desperado street magic"?

 

And even if the video is fake (which for all I know, it could be), does that mean that it's inherently impossible to light up a lightbulb with Qi? But not to kill bugs then bring them back to life, or change the weather patterns, or create sparks, or levitate, or heal people from across the room - to give examples of "legitimate" Qi abilities cited in this thread. Why?

 

I'd think that on the scale of things, changing the weather (not to mention killing and resurrecting insects) is both much more unbelievable, much more useful and much more impressive than the useless ability to light up a lightbulb. But for some reason there's this arbitrary line drawn with absolutely nothing to back it up but dogmatism and lack of critical thinking.

 

 

 

There's keeping an open mind, and then there's being desperate to believe and accomplish extraordinary power for self satisfaction. 

 

The implication being that because I don't automatically write something off as impossible because it doesn't match up with my personal experiences, I'm somehow desperately and selfishly power hungry - really? Hungry for what power? I would hardly call lighting a lightbulb "extraordinary power," again, certainly not compared to the other examples given, which people don't see to shrug at.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Aeran

[Brian]

I never said it should be assumed that the video is true - I said that we shouldn't make assumptions either way.

 

I guess I just hoped at least some people posting on a board about practicing arts which entails phenomena which are well outside the mainstream scientific materialist/reductionist view of reality would be a bit less dogmatic about these things and more able to accept that there are possibilities within existence which they aren't aware of either way, since they've (presumably) actively experienced things which are, by society's standard, impossible, but it appears that isn't the case.

 

Brian, you practice Stillness-Movement, right? By the same chain of reasoning, I should automatically discount all of those videos of people bouncing around as Ya Mu heals them and assume that the man is a fraud, because they could be faked far more easily than lighting up a lightbulb.

 

 

 

Yikes. Ok, sure thing.

You bring up an excellent point, Aeran!

 

The video of the guy lighting the light bulb in front of a distant but adoring crowd is intended to be a public demonstration of his energetic abilities. As such, using one of the most easily faked parlor tricks of the 21st century is decidedly unconvincing. Perhaps he followed it up with impartial qualitative investigation and demonstrated an ability to generate significant potential difference, charge and current in a controlled environment but none of that is in evidence. Based on the evidence presented, therefore, this seems indistinguishable from the identical parlor trick.

 

Note that this does not mean that people can't generate electricity, or that there aren't people who can make things materialize and vanish -- it just means that the video is about as convincing as an eight-year-old with a deck of cards.

 

Ya Mu, on the other hand, has posted a few video snippets of a workshop in progress. The one which gets the most attention is actually showing one of our own Bums, who has written about that experience first hand. I've not only met that Bum IRL but I was in the room at the time -- I am in the video, too. Even with that personal, first-hand experience, I wouldn't expect anyone to be convinced of anything from watching one of those videos -- in fact, I would look askance at anyone who took them as proof of anything, unless that person told me (as a few have, in fact) that they could actually see the energywork in one of those Ya Mu videos, the student's energy-body "lighting up" and expanding, light shooting out of the top of his head, etc.

 

If you were posting a "highlights" reel of a neigong workshop, you probably wouldn't post several minutes of someone sitting motionless, would you? Neither would you post highlights of a soccer match by showing 30 seconds of two guys passing the ball back and forth as they approach mid-field. Instead, you would post something with action that, hopefully, would spark a little interest and curiosity within the viewer. A small fraction of the viewers might be sufficiently curious to want to find out more, and Ya Mu's videos are presented within that context.

 

I would challenge you to find an example in which Ya Mu or any of his students have ever presented one of those videos as proof of anything. On the contrary, Ya Mu has repeatedly advised people to NOT go seeking special powers at all, and has urged people to try the system for themselves and report on their own personal experiences.

 

This is in stark contrast to the "just because it's the most easily faked trick in the book doesn't mean this particular lightbulb-lighter isn't the real-deal" attitude in this thread. Heck! The OP states that guy (don't know whether it is the same guy as that original 5-year-old link doesn't work for me) "uses some type of electrical device to enhance energy."

 

At the risk of opening this can of worms again, I restate that this has been my issue with the John Chang videos all along. Demonstrations like lighting an LED or setting a scrap of paper on fire may be totally legitimate but are so easily and so frequently faked that expecting anyone to take them seriously, much less be impressed by them, is unrealistic. The folks who flew to see John Chang for that TV show purportedly came for the purpose of conducting some quantitative measurements in a controlled environment the next day but he backed out. Whether you think his reason for backing out was reasonable is a personal choice but I would have given the results of those tests far more credence than the parlor tricks he performed. Personally, I believe John Chang is/was the real deal but this is most decidedly NOT based on those parlor tricks.

[Silent Answers]

The implication being that because I don't automatically write something off as impossible because it doesn't match up with my personal experiences, I'm somehow desperately and selfishly power hungry - really? Hungry for what power? I would hardly call lighting a lightbulb "extraordinary power," again, certainly not compared to the other examples given, which people don't see to shrug at.

I can't be bothered to go over the other points more, but I do want to say that I wasn't being personal with the "desperately seeking power" comment. It's in all of us when we dig deeper. I also don't think it matters on how you choose to see the video in question. These are just my thoughts and preference of who I'd rather be in the presence of. You can chose to linger over maybes, if that's how you prefer to roll.