standing meditation is overrated?

[Yoda]

Interesting. At the moment I am doing my last 5 minutes back with the hands by the side, but with the palm facing down. I didscovered this position when I was trying some minutes on each posture of the beginning of Tai Ji, and interestingly after 5 minutes in this position I feel PERFECTLY OK with the energy. I feel so normal I can sit in front of a computer, chat, have a shower, or do anything I normally would not do immedialtly after a session. That was a little breakthrough. But I might see if some sitting helps / is-helped.

 

 

The palms down as part of a cool down drill is a technique taught in Jan D's first Warriors of Stillness book to drain some of the tension/negativity that has accumulated by importing so much energy. He says to go 5 minutes with the position, but don't overdo it.

 

I've never tried it, but now that it has an endorsement, I'll check it out.

Edited February 9, 2006 by Yoda

[allan-in-china]

Just a clarification. When you say that your teacher's teacher does no standing, do you intend that it does no standing now (and you are unsure about the past), or that he never did standing?

 

I'll try to remember to ask at class tomorrow. But none of the students at the class do standing, and say it is only a supplement, but not essential.

 

The only thing about this I can say is my taoist teacher has told me not to bother with standing. He has said it isn't necessary for tai chi chuan, he has great ability with tai chi chuan (I've pushed hands briefly with him and he defeated me too easily everytime, I can't even move him...), he has told me he can throw people part of the time, but not all the time yet, it is like he is at the doorway to mastery but only part way through it (he's been practicing for about 15 years). His teacher could also throw people with any part of his body.

 

Just to clarify he didn't show me, but I believe him and I didn't ask him to show me. I don't know whether my body could take it (fa li) at this stage.

 

He actually travelled around a lot of China looking for skilled tai chi chuan practitioners and looking for what the thread between the best guys was, he came up with meditation as the answer, but he isn't sure it is correct. Standing meditation is certainly a type of meditation, but he suggested for me just sit and practice, if I were to spend an hour sitting or an hour standing I would get more out of the sitting, but it does depend on the goals...

 

So to clarify I've done quite a lot of standing in the past, but at the moment I just do sitting meditation and tai chi chuan.

 

I read the book about the power of internal martial arts and study with his author. He never denied anything from that book. You know the book, and over there it describes the steps that a tai ji man goes through.

 

Actually the book is back in Australia, and I haven't read it for quite a few years, if you are willing could you summarise the steps?

 

I also have seen many people allegedly being very good. And sometimes hiding information. In China there is a big tradition about needing to be a disciple to be taught the real thing. And Bruce told us that the only reason why he can teach us some things is because he was adopted in a traditional way as 'son' from his last teacher. If he was a disciple he would have been tied by promises. Have you considered going back from the village where Tai Ji was coming from? Going back to the roots might at this point clarify.

 

The disciple things are true. I've been practicing with these guys long enough to know that I do actually want to become a disciple now, and will be speaking with my teacher about it this week, his other disciples have seen how hard I study, and have been telling me if I really want to learn real tai chi then I will have to join the lineage. I can practice the form for 20 years and have less progress than I would as a disciple in about a year or two.

 

The disciple tradition is really based on not letting real martial arts be taught to people who would misuse it (ie hurt people etc.) To become a disciple: the teacher must accept you; you need to agree to never use the techniques to harm people; and there are some other conditions that I'm not 100% clear on yet.

 

There is some secrecy, but the overall intent is to protect people. I've heard about the inner techniques being learned from books and energy ending up flowing down the wrong meridians and people getting very sick, the disciple thing is to protect the public and students.

 

As you said in China if you want to learn the real thing, then you do have to become a disciple.

 

Going back to the village, I could, but I don't really like Chen style, doesn't suit my personality... Maybe in the future, but at the moment I've got so much information to digest, and so much to get good at that if I added anything else I would be hurting myself. Just as there are a number of other taoist teachers I want to check out, but I've got what I need to practice and I need to get good first before I make another step.

 

I'm more interested in the meditation path myself, tai chi chuan is just a supplement to keep my body together (although I definitely want to get good at it). So I'll be chasing down the taoist teachers first...

 

Allen, I am happy you joined this strange group of Taoists on the net, and maybe one day I might go to China, and you might be of much help, or we might just meet and have a chat. I tried to answer as much as I could, but my knowledge is very limited, and I only see my teacher twice a year, when I also have to compete for his time with about 40 other students. Still I am happy for your questions.

 

Pietro

 

Pietro, I've been thinking if we met I'm almost sure we would have a big argument for about 10 minutes and then become great friends. If you want to come to China let me know. Hopefully by that time I'll have some real gong fu to show, and we can push hands. Otherwise I'll just point you to some good teachers and you can push with them...

 

Allan

[Pietro]

Actually the book is back in Australia, and I haven't read it for quite a few years, if you are willing could you summarise the steps?

 

I'll see what I can do. Maybe in the week end I'll try to draw a mind map. That is something I wanted to do in any case. Would freemind be ok?

 

The disciple things are true. I've been practicing with these guys long enough to know that I do actually want to become a disciple now, and will be speaking with my teacher about it this week, his other disciples have seen how hard I study, and have been telling me if I really want to learn real tai chi then I will have to join the lineage. I can practice the form for 20 years and have less progress than I would as a disciple in about a year or two.

 

The disciple tradition is really based on not letting real martial arts be taught to people who would misuse it (ie hurt people etc.) To become a disciple: the teacher must accept you; you need to agree to never use the techniques to harm people; and there are some other conditions that I'm not 100% clear on yet.

 

There is some secrecy, but the overall intent is to protect people. I've heard about the inner techniques being learned from books and energy ending up flowing down the wrong meridians and people getting very sick, the disciple thing is to protect the public and students.

 

As you said in China if you want to learn the real thing, then you do have to become a disciple.

Yes, in our last workshop he literally told us: this time I taught you as disciples are taught. I did this because 1) there is a number of people here who could look at me in the eyes and say: yes I stand for 1 hour a day

2) I was permitted by having been adopted

3) I am a bridge between east and west, and I have the responsability thatthose things arive fully in the west. The disciple tradition is not working so much in the east, as each generation is getting weaker (I heard the same from the Yi Quan master, cited before). While in the west when you study a topic at the university you are told the whole of it, anywhere you go. This is why western academic culture is growng while this is shrinking.

I have no doubt that disciples are learning more in 1 year than devoted student in 20. I have seen the effect of those teaching are having in my body. Oh, btw, we have also been told that to become a disciple you sometimes have to hit the pavement with your forehead so hard that blood comes out... I hope your teacher will not require that from you.

 

Just to clarify, before the obvious question will follow. No, Bruce is not teaching everything he knows. He is just teaching more than a traditional teacher would, for the reasons explained above. But always safe and secure practices.

 

Going back to the village, I could, but I don't really like Chen style, doesn't suit my personality... Maybe in the future, but at the moment I've got so much information to digest, and so much to get good at that if I added anything else I would be hurting myself. Just as there are a number of other taoist teachers I want to check out, but I've got what I need to practice and I need to get good first before I make another step.

 

Well, he said something about: "no one in the original village is happy about the state of the art aronud the world right now".

 

I'm more interested in the meditation path myself, tai chi chuan is just a supplement to keep my body together (although I definitely want to get good at it). So I'll be chasing down the taoist teachers first...

Same here. I see tai ji as just necessary to build a good base for meditation. It is too easy to get self deluded in a pure path of meditation. A bit like the difference between Go and meditation. People can think, in meditation that they are right. If you play go you cannot make that mistake. The result of the game tells you your real level of understanding.

 

So I'll be chasing down the taoist teachers first...

Pietro, I've been thinking if we met I'm almost sure we would have a big argument for about 10 minutes and then become great friends. If you want to come to China let me know. Hopefully by that time I'll have some real gong fu to show, and we can push hands. Otherwise I'll just point you to some good teachers and you can push with them...

 

It's ok, to have 10 minutes and then a lifetime. Better than a lifetime of argument, and 10 minutes of friendship, but if you want we can make an effort and try to get ahead here on the board

 

More seriously, there is a number of threads in my life that seem to lead there. Taoism is just one of them. Another big one is Go, and I am reading right now a book in english, translated from Japanese, about some high level player (Go Seigen, among others) going to China looking for informations about the origins of Go.

 

If I go, and if you will still be on this board at the time, I will surely contact you.

Pietro

[allan-in-china]

I'll see what I can do. Maybe in the week end I'll try to draw a mind map. That is something I wanted to do in any case. Would freemind be ok?

I have no idea.. As long as I can see it with my web browser...

 

The disciple tradition is not working so much in the east, as each generation is getting weaker (I heard the same from the Yi Quan master, cited before). While in the west when you study a topic at the university you are told the whole of it, anywhere you go. This is why western academic culture is growng while this is shrinking.

I think it depends on which lineage you are looking at, and the teacher, Bruce isn't the only teacher trying to keep the knowledge alive, there are those in China who want to do the same, but overall I can agree with that.

 

Oh, btw, we have also been told that to become a disciple you sometimes have to hit the pavement with your forehead so hard that blood comes out... I hope your teacher will not require that from you.

This is tai chi chuan, not Shaolin!!

 

Well, he said something about: "no one in the original village is happy about the state of the art aronud the world right now".

Maybe I'll have to check it out sometime - but anyone with any basic knowledge of "real" tai chi chuan would be able to see that 99% of people are just waving their arms around when practicing, and anyone with a little skill would also be able to pick out who is good, or maybe even try the simple method of trying to push them and seeing what happens... So I can understand why they wouldn't be happy about the state of the art at the moment, most people think tai chi chuan is exercise for old people not a martial art.

 

Same here. I see tai ji as just necessary to build a good base for meditation. It is too easy to get self deluded in a pure path of meditation. A bit like the difference between Go and meditation. People can think, in meditation that they are right. If you play go you cannot make that mistake. The result of the game tells you your real level of understanding.

Although I believe meditation leaves signs... Just not so easy for people to see.

 

It's ok, to have 10 minutes and then a lifetime. Better than a lifetime of argument, and 10 minutes of friendship, but if you want we can make an effort and try to get ahead here on the board

 

More seriously, there is a number of threads in my life that seem to lead there. Taoism is just one of them. Another big one is Go, and I am reading right now a book in english, translated from Japanese, about some high level player (Go Seigen, among others) going to China looking for informations about the origins of Go.

 

If I go, and if you will still be on this board at the time, I will surely contact you.

I've heard there are some very skilled Go players in Kunming, Yunnan Province south of where I live. I'm in Chengdu, Sichuan Province.

 

I'm sure we can get a headstart here.

 

If you want to get in contact with me then just use the contact page on my website or maybe use a personal message.

 

Allan

[Pietro]

I have no idea.. As long as I can see it with my web browser...

 

Ok, although I am quite busy at the moment, I managed to make a basic mind map of the first of four stags. The four stages are 1 learning the form, 2, push hands, 3, between push hands and sparring, 4, sparring and fighting.

 

The mind map is here: http://taotewiki.net/TaiJiMindMap

 

If you click on a node it should open up in its sub nodes.

 

All clear?

 

 

Pietro

[allan-in-china]

Ok, although I am quite busy at the moment, I managed to make a basic mind map of the first of four stags. The four stages are 1 learning the form, 2, push hands, 3, between push hands and sparring, 4, sparring and fighting.

 

The mind map is here: http://taotewiki.net/TaiJiMindMap

 

If you click on a node it should open up in its sub nodes.

 

All clear?

Pietro

 

Actually I couldn't view it (the picture didn't show up on my browser), the training I am doing over here basically is following the above structure, I've learned the form and I'm doing push hands work.

 

Allan

[Yoda]

[gendao]

The problem with qigong is that it's a chicken-and-egg scenario.

 

You do it to open your energy body up...

But your energy body has to be open in order for you to feel all the differences that small adjustments make so you can position yourself properly...to open your energy body up.

 

After I got a lot more open, I can now feel the difference that slightly tilting my tailbone, straightening my Jade Pillow or levelling my feet/hips/shoulders makes. But before this, I felt very little and was basically just shooting in the dark.

Edited November 13, 2007 by vortex

[doc benway]

Thaddues said:

 

There is no magic power, just hard intelligent consistent training.

 

 

I certainly agree with that!

 

I practice standing in santi, wuji, and hugging the tree. Santi and hugging the tree have helped my strength and the effectiveness of techniques considerably. Wuji has helped my root and ability to neutralize during push hands. I think that standing can be a valuable training aid for IMA's but I don't think it's magic.

Edited November 13, 2007 by xuesheng

[rain]

.............

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[thaddeus]

funny to read this thread after almost 2 years. i realize i can have an edge when i post..sorry about that y'all, don't really mean to come across that way.

Anyway, coincidentally the last year for me was spent being exposed to even more information on standing.

I think distinctions have to be made between standing for meditation, for health and for fighting. There is overlap in the areas, but the differences are probably what's fueling this thread.

T

[Spectrum]

funny to read this thread after almost 2 years. i realize i can have an edge when i post..sorry about that y'all, don't really mean to come across that way.

Anyway, coincidentally the last year for me was spent being exposed to even more information on standing.

I think distinctions have to be made between standing for meditation, for health and for fighting. There is overlap in the areas, but the differences are probably what's fueling this thread.

T

 

Is it overrated?

 

Spectrum

[nightwatchdog]

Is it overrated?

 

Spectrum

 

Nope.

 

nightwatchdog

[Mal]

I keep thinking of a novel that said "No more coincidences for you" as I've been thinking about standing meditation a lot recently too

 

Anyhow it's one of the things I don't do (time required).

I've got seated meditation, Tai Chi fills the moving meditation part, Kung Fu is taking the exercise part. Standing meditation is missing, should I try to put it in?

 

Been thinking about Yoga, but the ones I like are all moving postures Have done 3 circle standing before, it's hard work. Sort of interested in taking some Tai Chi postures and doing them static. But don't really know what I want / need. Must admit I lean towards "it's overrated"

 

Basically only been thinking of it again because if I go to the Kunlun seminar there will be standing meditation and I had better start practicing if I don't want to be a trembling pile of sweat!

[nightwatchdog]

I keep thinking of a novel that said "No more coincidences for you" as I've been thinking about standing meditation a lot recently too

 

Anyhow it's one of the things I don't do (time required).

I've got seated meditation, Tai Chi fills the moving meditation part, Kung Fu is taking the exercise part. Standing meditation is missing, should I try to put it in?

 

Basically only been thinking of it again because if I go to the Kunlun seminar there will be standing meditation and I had better start practicing if I don't want to be a trembling pile of sweat!

 

If you could manage five minutes, I'd try it. Just do five minutes of embrace the tree every day. Add one minute a week. It'll take you six weeks to reach ten minutes with very little discomfort or time investment. You'll also be establishing the habit. In my experience, everyone who's ever tried this simple method gets so excited about the practice that they never want to go without it again.

 

Caveat: Be careful not to jump ahead with the time progression when you start experiencing stuff. You won't be doing yourself any favors by suddenly jumping to an hour the first time you feel your channels open up. That's how you hurt yourself and give up. Slow and steady wins the Chi Kung race.

 

I sincerly hope this helps you.

[DanC]

I have found some middle ground in this debate, Im now doing seated Zhan Zhaung from Lam Kam Chuens book titled "Everyday Chi Kung". It just seems so much more relaxing to do the postures seated, I think Zhan Zhaung is very powerful, the postures create the perfect balance between tension and relaxation which leads to increased Chi, Oxygen and blood flow throughout the body, this is where the power lies in this system of Chi Kung.

Zhan Zhaung seems to really open up Chi flow throughout the body better then other forms, also its very simple to learn and requires no visualizations, I haven't found a system which can relax your nervous system and muscles yet leaving you feeling energized as well.

[thaddeus]

Is it overrated?

 

Spectrum

at the time, I was speaking from pure chen style point of view. I've since learned there are non public things one can train in standing. It's pretty deep and you have to be 'in the know'. I'll qualify my earlier statements by saying if you're exposed to that knowledge, be grateful and do it. Unfortunately, what's being taught out there for the most part is surface,just standing there. Even the visualizations are just elementary. And there is a huge part of non verbal 'transmission' from a master. I don't think there is anything supernatural about it, it's just something one picks up by being shown things and being around the master.

T

[nightwatchdog]

at the time, I was speaking from pure chen style point of view. I've since learned there are non public things one can train in standing. It's pretty deep and you have to be 'in the know'. I'll qualify my earlier statements by saying if you're exposed to that knowledge, be grateful and do it. Unfortunately, what's being taught out there for the most part is surface,just standing there. Even the visualizations are just elementary. And there is a huge part of non verbal 'transmission' from a master. I don't think there is anything supernatural about it, it's just something one picks up by being shown things and being around the master.

T

 

What about the internal landscape learned from the practice? This is something spoken of at length in the classics of all three of the main internal styles. How can you expect people to learn how to articulate movement from Dan Tien, thread the chi, unify the six harmonies, open and close internal organs, pump the spine, etc. etc. without actually feeling it? Do you expect them to visualize?

 

Zhan Zhuang is the antithesis of visualization, and other such wishful thinking. Standing practice is about feeling it, and learning how your body does it naturally so that eventually, you can learn to control it. It's this control that makes an art internal.

 

As far as I know, no legitimate teacher claims that Zhan Zhuang is about "just standing there." It's about discovering how your body works in great detail so that you can gain conscious control over it's functioning. It is a matter of sensitivity, which is why it's so effective at improving push hands skill. At best, a teacher can point the way, but the work must be done and experienced by the practitioner for benefits to arise.

 

The bottom line is this: If you don't go inside and really watch how your body works, the upper levels of any internal art will be lost to you.

[Buddy]

I don't know if Pietro is still here but I would advise him to not believe everything someone might tell you and don't engage in hero worship. Some things he might have heard simply are not true.

[Mandrake]

Sounds like you're taking Pietro for an illiterate idiot.

 

Mandrake

 

 

I don't know if Pietro is still here but I would advise him to not believe everything someone might tell you and don't engage in hero worship. Some things he might have heard simply are not true.

[Buddy]

I don't know why you'd say that. I studied with his teacher for over ten years and know things he apparently doesn't.

[Pietro]

I don't know why you'd say that. I studied with his teacher for over ten years and know things he apparently doesn't.

 

Then why not going claim by claim and dissect what is there and what is fantasy and what we simply (with our combined knowledge) do not know. I am sure we all can greatly benefit from this exercise. Especially so if it is done publicly.

[Buddy]

OK you start. Mostly I find adherents resenting this sort of exercise.

[林愛偉]

What about the internal landscape learned from the practice? This is something spoken of at length in the classics of all three of the main internal styles. How can you expect people to learn how to articulate movement from Dan Tien, thread the chi, unify the six harmonies, open and close internal organs, pump the spine, etc. etc. without actually feeling it? Do you expect them to visualize?

 

Zhan Zhuang is the antithesis of visualization, and other such wishful thinking. Standing practice is about feeling it, and learning how your body does it naturally so that eventually, you can learn to control it. It's this control that makes an art internal.

 

As far as I know, no legitimate teacher claims that Zhan Zhuang is about "just standing there." It's about discovering how your body works in great detail so that you can gain conscious control over it's functioning. It is a matter of sensitivity, which is why it's so effective at improving push hands skill. At best, a teacher can point the way, but the work must be done and experienced by the practitioner for benefits to arise.

 

The bottom line is this: If you don't go inside and really watch how your body works, the upper levels of any internal art will be lost to you.

 

 

There are obviously many levels to zhan zhuang, and not all of them require one to stand in low stances.

The first few levels of practice are knowing the body, connecting everything, visualization and will and intent development. But as one goes further, standing becomes keys that unlock and allow higher energies to enter, transform, and raise the energy of the mind as well as the body.

Levels after that bring in higher teachings, abilities, transformation of body, healing deep rooted sicknesses, cancers. Levels after that get one to states of communication with other realms, and learning teachings of other realms, light beings, and ..well the list can go on.

 

Not much is talked about when it comes to the higher levels of practice in zhan zhuang, and that is because some don't know, aren't sure and or haven't gotten to those levels. Another reason is that those beings who have reached high levels only reserve that knowledge in practice for those of high virtue in cultivation, such as holding to proper views, and conduct. There is a lot involved in cultivation and like I said some time before, of all Daoist and Buddhist knowledge on this planet, there is only about 20% of it available publicly and on this Earth. If the complete lot of teachings were available now, this Earth can go in two directions;

One either extremely totalitarian; as we see it with just technology, politics and money, but with power involved and high level beings roaming the Earth influencing on a massive scale, their own will.

 

OR

 

People turning around altogether in a positive like development, influencing each other in good, wholesome ways. In this scenario, almost all of our worldly problems would transform, dissipate.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited November 16, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Gerard]

There is a lot of misconception with ZZ. Let me put it this way:

 

Because one is fighting gravity the muscles need to carry an excessive load that will rise fire qi and hence tension.

 

So ZZ has a point of diminishing returns, that is the more or longer you do it the less benefit you get.

 

That is my case, after 4 years of doing daily ZZ I quit. It was developing my entire musculoskeletal structure not just the major muscle groups but all of them. Hence my dietary requirements were enormous.

 

In addition due to the fire qi build up (problem that was compounded by my internal energetic structure, fire horse, according to Sheng Xiao and 5 Elements Theory) my body became too Yang.

 

I no longer practice ZZ, just sitting Buddhist meditation (Vipassana).

 

However, I must admit that for a beginner (and perhaps for anyone that doesn't have a fire nature: sheep, horse or snake) ZZ is an extremely valuable exercise with all the well-known Qigong benefits.

 

Sitting meditation combined with moving Qigong delivers equal benefits.