standing meditation is overrated?

[hagar]

For me, standing in all its variations is about standing back, and like sitting meditation, discovering a limitless internal landscape.

 

Standing back is the initial intention that should follow all standing postures, from low martial stances to holding a ball, to embracing the tree. This entails letting go of tension, intention and expectation. What is percieved as "reactions" like heat, cold, too much energy, or lack thereof is all just passing scenery. If you quit because the initial reactions stop, you stop before the true practice starts, and if you stop because it is getting too powerful, there is either too much doing, or you haven't felt overwhelmed enough. It is actually at the point where you think you are dying, passing out, or feeling so much pain that you feel you cannot bear it anymore that you are on the brink of true practice.

 

For me, this came as a realization when I did a retreat where we stood with our arms above our heads for 2 hours straight. I thought I was going to vomit, pass out, and even die from the pain. Then, suddenly the scenery changed. It was like a veil had been removed and this immense bliss, and deep physical and energetic quiet filled me. I felt I could stand there forever, and the whole body felt light as a feather.

 

The point of my post is this:

Standing, like a static postures entails getting to a point where the physical body's pre-programmed system breakes down, or gives in, and the chi takes over. That point, call it the "boiling point" can come every time you practice, or it can come after 10 years, depending on you. The amount of days or years does not matter, if you do not take yourself beyond the "boilingpoint", you can practice standing for 20 years and get very little benefit away from general physical well being.

 

So take the challenge: Take it to the boiling point and beyond. And after that, everything is changed, like water, after it is boiled is never the same.

 

h

[Pietro]

OK you start. Mostly I find adherents resenting this sort of exercise.

Nice to meet you then.

 

In this thread, if I remember well, I have claimed, following what Bruce said, that

standing is part of a complete chinese chi gung system, that comprised about 200 postures, that alone are able to open up the whole body.

 

Have you got any problem with this claim?

 

I also said that the hands should not just be stuck up, but the energy should rise them. And as such it might take many months, after you have learned how to rise the energy to have your energy being at heart level. Even if you practice hours every day.

 

Have you got a problem with this claim?

 

Your turn, sir.

[Buddy]

",,,that comprised about 200 postures, that alone are able to open up the whole body. Have you got any problem with this claim?"

 

Sure I do. Can you cite me any other source for this claim?

 

"I also said that the hands should not just be stuck up, but the energy should rise them. And as such it might take many months, after you have learned how to rise the energy to have your energy being at heart level. Even if you practice hours every day.

 

Have you got a problem with this claim?"

 

Yes indeed. The energy rises them up? You mean no physical action is required? If I practice santi or any other posture it is ineffective because I just put my body that position? I can readily show the power.

 

It's tiring to argue with a beginner.

[Spectrum]

I also said that the hands should not just be stuck up, but the energy should rise them. And as such it might take many months, after you have learned how to rise the energy to have your energy being at heart level. Even if you practice hours every day.

 

Go push on the door w/ the back of your hands for a while. There is something small there.

 

standing is part of a complete chinese chi gung system, that comprised about 200 postures, that alone are able to open up the whole body.

 

BS.

 

Spectrum

Edited November 17, 2007 by Spectrum

[Pietro]

",,,that comprised about 200 postures, that alone are able to open up the whole body. Have you got any problem with this claim?"

 

Sure I do. Can you cite me any other source for this claim?

 

No, but can you prove that in the whole vast China this does not exist?

Do you assume to know everything that is there?

It is hard to prove that something does not exist. Practically impossible. How do you plan to accomplish this mighty task?

 

Plus Bruce has shown that there are different postures by giving to people personalized postures accorind to their conditions. At our workshop we were about 75 (so I have been told by Mountain, I didn't count us) and there were very few people who had the same posture. We were also explained en passant the 4 postures that are used for problems with the ears.

As such while it is hard toprove that this discipline does not exist, we can see that what Bruce says is consistent with the fact that he has been treating people with different postures.

 

"I also said that the hands should not just be stuck up, but the energy should rise them. And as such it might take many months, after you have learned how to rise the energy to have your energy being at heart level. Even if you practice hours every day.

 

Have you got a problem with this claim?"

 

Yes indeed. The energy rises them up? You mean no physical action is required? If I practice santi or any other posture it is ineffective because I just put my body that position? I can readily show the power.

Well, senior, in Germany spring 2006, if I remember well, there was a course in standing meditation. The course included instructions on how to raise the energy so that it would raise the hands. We were also instructed how to lower the hands at the end of the standing practice. With the piece of advice that dropping them without dropping the energy would break the flow between the hands and the LTT. I have been practicing in this way ever since, and I can now raise the hands up to the heart in few minutes.

 

Yes, the raising also uses the muscles, but it is less tiring than if I were just sticking my hands up. It is being pushed up by the energy. The only way in which I can describe the sensation is: imagine you put your hand in a basin with no water. You then start puring water in it. If you do nothing your hand will be submerged. But you can just "let the hand float". If you do this the hand will raise with the water. Yes, you are using muscles but not only. And the water is giving you clear indications about how high you are to go before the energetic connection would be lost. And if I bring down the hands it does feel the sense of unity in the body is gone. It is hard to describe, but I will be happy to show you in my body what I mean.

 

It's tiring to argue with a beginner.

Yeah, don't tell me, I am arguing with someone who doesn't even know logic!

[Spectrum]

I've felt that before Peitro, don't worry, it's real. There are shortcuts, but the goal is to guide the chi w/ your yi first, before the movement physically starts. My teacher says similar. Movement starts in the mind, that doesn't mean it is "magic", but it is not visible externally.

 

 

Spectrum

[Mandrake]

It was an insult, I reacted. It may be the case that you didn't think about it.

The statement was a personal attack in a discussion you didn't participate in earlier. Nobody else has accused Pietro for "hero worship". The wording implies that he has been totally brainwashed by his universal saviour, no longer able to think critically. Off course, we know that's not the case.

 

I've been part of too many discussions which degenerated because of sweeping generalizations against the personae, because of not staying on track and backing everything up, including ones sentiments, with friendly reasoning. I've faulted in this as well, but intend to stay away from this.

 

Writing that it is tiring to argue with a beginner doesn't really encourage any further discussion, especially when there's not many arguments or earnest discourse from the experienced one.

 

This thread has been a delight to read, hopefully it will continue.

 

 

I studied with his teacher for over ten years and know things he apparently doesn't.

 

Back it up then.

[Buddy]

"No, but can you prove that in the whole vast China this does not exist?"

 

One cannot prove a negative.

 

"Do you assume to know everything that is there?"

"

No, only more than you.

 

"It is hard to prove that something does not exist. Practically impossible. How do you plan to accomplish this mighty task?"

"

It's your task, not one I've taken on. See above.

 

"Plus Bruce has shown that there are different postures by giving to people personalized postures accorind to their conditions. At our workshop we were about 75 (so I have been told by Mountain, I didn't count us) and there were very few people who had the same posture. We were also explained en passant the 4 postures that are used for problems with the ears."

"

Maybe Bruce made this up.

 

"As such while it is hard toprove that this discipline does not exist, we can see that what Bruce says is consistent with the fact that he has been treating people with different postures."

 

Treating people? Is it not a poor Doctor who cannot treat himself?

 

"Well, senior, in Germany spring 2006, if I remember well, there was a course in standing meditation. The course included instructions on how to raise the energy so that it would raise the hands. We were also instructed how to lower the hands at the end of the standing practice. With the piece of advice that dropping them without dropping the energy would break the flow between the hands and the LTT. I have been practicing in this way ever since, and I can now raise the hands up to the heart in few minutes."

 

Well junior, do you not need muscular contraction to do so? It is not the qi that does this but the yi telling the body what to do.

 

"Yes, the raising also uses the muscles, but it is less tiring than if I were just sticking my hands up. It is being pushed up by the energy. The only way in which I can describe the sensation is: imagine you put your hand in a basin with no water. You then start puring water in it. If you do nothing your hand will be submerged. But you can just "let the hand float". If you do this the hand will raise with the water."

 

C'mon. You find it tiring to raise your hands? Your example is silly. Your hands will not "just float". Gravity will prevent that. Surely you've not found a way to circumvent the laws of physics. Your whole arm might float if you are submerged but otherwise...

 

"Yes, you are using muscles but not only. And the water is giving you clear indications about how high you are to go before the energetic connection would be lost."

 

Jeez. Water is intert. It's not "telling" you anything.

 

"And if I bring down the hands it does feel the sense of unity in the body is gone. It is hard to describe, but I will be happy to show you in my body what I mean."

 

I understand perfectly what you are imagining. Suggestion is a powerful tool. As is neuro-linguistic programming, which Brice has admitted to studying (and allegedly not using).

 

"Yeah, don't tell me, I am arguing with someone who doesn't even know logic!"

 

 

Logic? Nothing of what you describe uses logic. It uses alleged subjective experience. Words have actual meanings.

If you like this crap then by all means don't let me stand in your way of shelling out your money. A fool and his money are some party, to paraphrase.

[Spectrum]

C'mon. You find it tiring to raise your hands? Your example is silly. Your hands will not "just float". Gravity will prevent that. Surely you've not found a way to circumvent the laws of physics. Your whole arm might float if you are submerged but otherwise...

 

Hey Buddy,

 

Scary Thoughts.

 

What makes your hand feel like rising after you press the back of it against a wall for 2 min? Or... perhaps you don't feel that?

 

Spectrum

Edited November 18, 2007 by Spectrum

[Buddy]

Well,

It's the absence of the previous pressing. The key phrase is "feel like". It's a perception not a real event. Similar, I suppose, to putting one hand in cold water and the other in hot. If you then put both into tepid water you will perceive it to be hotter or colder depending on the hand. I'm not trying to be a dick here, just pragmatic. Let's not fall into delusion simply because we want to believe.

[Buddy]

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you so didn't know your response was to me.

 

 

"It was an insult, I reacted. It may be the case that you didn't think about it.

The statement was a personal attack in a discussion you didn't participate in earlier. Nobody else has accused Pietro for "hero worship". The wording implies that he has been totally brainwashed by his universal saviour, no longer able to think critically. Off course, we know that's not the case."

 

You can read into my statement anything you like. I care only for my intent. I've seen hundreds come and go from very early on. Kumar's system (his, not Liu's) is an excellent one. But there are people still alive in China who knew and studied with Liu and his teacher. Not every picture tells a true story.

 

 

"Writing that it is tiring to argue with a beginner doesn't really encourage any further discussion, especially when there's not many arguments or earnest discourse from the experienced one."

 

I'm a former senior instructor in the system, taught at it's largest school, continue to provide personal instruction to its director. I've taught hundreds of students in person, it's tiring to try to instruct the unwilling. I have the luxury of not having to do it anymore.

 

"Back it up then."

 

What would have of me? Strike you from no distance and make your teeth rattle? Move the plates of my skull or individual vertabra? Let you feel me move my internal organs at will? I can do all these things but not from a keyboard. I was long a proponant of Kumar because I thought he had the best stuff. I still credit him with the majority of my achievement. But some things have to be taken with a grain of salt. Unless you don't prefer your truth savory.

[Spectrum]

No matter. This is a thread on standing meditation and some dialog has started on the minds perceptions of "chi" in which I feel obligated to repond.

 

"WuWei" can be a difficult thing to understand in relationship to kinesthetic sensations experienced in sensory deprivation environments. The turtle draws into it's shell. That is how hallucinations are resolved through inaction, instead of going crazy and compartmentalizing experience, fragmenting out and going nut, or much worse...getting reallllllly "normal", or what I call a dried up old prune, good for medicine and looooong term storage, but not much else, no art, no spontenaety, no virility.

 

Realize the implications to not being able to blend navigation through all the senses. This would mean that deaf people shouldn't be able to "listen" to music through their body. Blind people shouldn't be able to "feel" around, or use echo location methods w/ their voice for finding their way.

 

It's the absence of the previous pressing. The key phrase is "feel like".

 

Research: Phantom Limbs & OOBEs <- if this is also "not real" then there is no need to continue. If there is some sense of identification w/ this penom then please continue.

 

The act of pressing against the wall is real. It is an act. A "sensation" produced in "kinesthetic space", what we call "feeling" (not to be confused w/ emotion), is also real. Even after our action has stopped, we feel it as real as an echo is to sound.

 

So why does your arm "feel like" rising after pressing? Because your nervous system compensated... with ... what again? Oh, yeah, Nothing at all. The mind is nothing. Nothing at all.

 

The echo is not your original call, it is your original call (act) in mirror opposite, coming back at you. It's nothing, and yet you hear it in diminishing return. Sooooooo

 

It's a perception not a real event.

 

Since it's not real, there is no reason to "go with", with this dualistic mindset, I bet there are a lot of things in life that arn't "real".... yet ....

 

We are not talking about any old perceptions here, we are talking about body perceptions. Gut Feelings. If we play king of the mountain on a nice long log high above water, I bet that perceptions will play a key role in the outcome. We might not even tough and one of us might fall, or, on the other hand, there may be anything from a single touch, to a struggle. Words mean nothing, and everything. In a word, it comes to this.

 

Real or Not Real doesn't matter, in Wuji, your thoughts effect the outcome of your strategy. Martial or Health, Safe Journey is not up for debate, it is Survival Instinct.

 

Similar, I suppose, to putting one hand in cold water and the other in hot. If you then put both into tepid water you will perceive it to be hotter or colder depending on the hand.

 

Nice Exercise. When you remove your hands could you "go with" any of those "perceptions" with result? This is reverse placebo effect. Can you make one hand actually colder or hotter?

 

I'm not trying to be a dick here, just pragmatic.

 

Pragmatize life all you want, it doesn't take the magic or mystery away from it growing back through the seems of the cubed box science is staring out of. Hopefully you don't get goosebumps when your favorite song comes on the radio. You might "rationalize" the moment, and then it's gone. Poof. Like an illusion.

 

Let's not fall into delusion simply because we want to believe.

 

The mind is indeed powerful. Placebe effects work both ways, seeker.

 

eez. Water is intert. It's not "telling" you anything.

 

Senioritis Strikes. Truth trascends the medium. Water says the same things the flowers say when you talk to them, the same thing a human body does when you touch it nicely instead of touching it harshly. Being a senior student in a school somewhere you should know these natural responses, this natural language... these things we share in the family of human beings?

 

What would have of me? Strike you from no distance and make your teeth rattle? Move the plates of my skull or individual vertabra? Let you feel me move my internal organs at will? I can do all these things but not from a keyboard.

 

You could describe the experience, even creatively if you want.

 

But some things have to be taken with a grain of salt. Unless you don't prefer your truth savory.

 

Can you do it in reverse?

 

Spectrum

Edited November 18, 2007 by Spectrum

[Mandrake]

In that case, cool to have you on the board. Nice to have some more meat on the bones. Anyway, this forum is an open discussion between free minds, between different experiences, it's about sharing. If it's like you say below, you're clearly an asset to have here, but remember that people don't come here to get "instructed", not by me, not by you. Many just chill out, and have been doing that since this board started, many years back now.

 

Could you care to tell what Liu's teachers name was? In what cities do you find his other students?

 

Mandrake

 

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you so didn't know your response was to me.

"It was an insult, I reacted. It may be the case that you didn't think about it.

The statement was a personal attack in a discussion you didn't participate in earlier. Nobody else has accused Pietro for "hero worship". The wording implies that he has been totally brainwashed by his universal saviour, no longer able to think critically. Off course, we know that's not the case."

 

You can read into my statement anything you like. I care only for my intent. I've seen hundreds come and go from very early on. Kumar's system (his, not Liu's) is an excellent one. But there are people still alive in China who knew and studied with Liu and his teacher. Not every picture tells a true story.

"Writing that it is tiring to argue with a beginner doesn't really encourage any further discussion, especially when there's not many arguments or earnest discourse from the experienced one."

 

I'm a former senior instructor in the system, taught at it's largest school, continue to provide personal instruction to its director. I've taught hundreds of students in person, it's tiring to try to instruct the unwilling. I have the luxury of not having to do it anymore.

 

"Back it up then."

 

What would have of me? Strike you from no distance and make your teeth rattle? Move the plates of my skull or individual vertabra? Let you feel me move my internal organs at will? I can do all these things but not from a keyboard. I was long a proponant of Kumar because I thought he had the best stuff. I still credit him with the majority of my achievement. But some things have to be taken with a grain of salt. Unless you don't prefer your truth savory.

[Spectrum]

A nod for Savory

[Buddy]

Ah well "Spectrum,"

You want to speak in fortune cookie platitudes. I'm fine with that and if others want to find you wise, that's fine too. It's easy to just type things as if you have some understanding of skill. Come to EmptyFlower and discuss with actual people who practice what you profess.

 

I'm Buddy Tripp. I'll give you my address and phone number if you like and we can continue this conversation in person. I'm not a nameless faceless moniker. So I call your bluff. I find you, as the bard described, "all sound and fury signifying nothing." But PM me and we can talk. But I don't suffer fools gladly.

 

 

Buddy Tripp

90 Lookout Point Rd

Plymouth Ma.

 

See you soon?

 

Liu's teacher's name is in Kumar's travelogue, The Power Of Internal Martial Arts. Sorry it's not on the tip of my tongue just now. His KF brother Zhu Baojian still lives and teaches in Beijing. Liu taught others, than Kumar and Bai Hua, contrary to what has been written. You can ask his (Zhu's) student Tomacz, who posts sometimes on EmptryFlower and Jarek's board as well.

[Mandrake]

Liu's teacher's name is in Kumar's travelogue, The Power Of Internal Martial Arts. Sorry it's not on the tip of my tongue just now. His KF brother Zhu Baojian still lives and teaches in Beijing. Liu taught others, than Kumar and Bai Hua, contrary to what has been written. You can ask his (Zhu's) student Tomacz, who posts sometimes on EmptryFlower and Jarek's board as well.

 

Interesting, thanks!

[Pietro]

"No, but can you prove that in the whole vast China this does not exist?"

 

One cannot prove a negative.

Since we agree that there is no "easy" way to prove that there is not this discipline already there, we have to use indirect ways. Who will just give us hints, but no definite answers. This until someone speaks with every practitioner, or we find (or Bruce tells us) someone else who knows this discipline we are left guessing out of this partial knowledge.

 

Well, Bruce have been pretty consistent with his story about the standing practice. He has given to people different standing postures. You think he invented the whole thing up? That would make him both a genius and totally crazy. It seem harder to believe that than thinking that his story is actually true.

 

"Do you assume to know everything that is there?"

No, only more than you.

Please describe me "fourth space".

Also, how do you dissolve the energy of the whole body all at once?

And finally, how do you use opening and closing to change your belief system.

Thanks.

 

"It is hard to prove that something does not exist. Practically impossible. How do you plan to accomplish this mighty task?"

It's your task, not one I've taken on. See above.

Hmm, no it's you who need to prove that it does not exist. I am absolutely happy with:

we don't know, Bruce says so, and his teaching is consistent with his affirmation.

I am not arguing anything more than that.

 

"Plus Bruce has shown ..."

"

Maybe Bruce made this up.

I answered this above. In any case if he is able to invent a whole field just like that I would be even more interested in working with him.

 

"As such while it is hard to prove that this discipline does not exist, we can see that what Bruce says is consistent with the fact that he has been treating people with different postures."

Treating people? Is it not a poor Doctor who cannot treat himself?

 

He can walk. Could you after similar physical experiences? And generally how many chi gung doctors would be able to? (And let's not even speak about how many non chi gung doctors).

 

"Well, senior, in Germany spring 2006, if I remember well, there was a course in standing meditation. The course included instructions on how to raise the energy so that it would raise the hands. We were also instructed how to lower the hands at the end of the standing practice. With the piece of advice that dropping them without dropping the energy would break the flow between the hands and the LTT. I have been practicing in this way ever since, and I can now raise the hands up to the heart in few minutes."

 

Well junior, do you not need muscular contraction to do so? It is not the qi that does this but the yi telling the body what to do.

Well senior, Bruce explained that there is a correct way to do this,

and you claim this is not the one.

He then went further explaining how this was done,

and you claim this is not relevant from a physical point of view.

Now my claim is that it does not matter what is going on from a physical point of view. Not in the context of this discussion. This discussion is only trying to ascertain if Bruce has made those things up. My claim is that since he backed off his first vague explenations with more detailed further explanations, he is actually showing that his teaching are internally consistent. And this by itself should rule in his favour.

I also has followed his teaching and has found myself being better off. Yeah, this is not a double blind. But is all we have.

 

Also, let's not confuse the western way of breaking up the human body with the eastern one. Or it will all become a huge mess.

 

I can tell you that practicing following Bruce indications

a) qualitatively different

there is a sense of oneness of the human body that is maintained throught he whole experience, something that is just missing,

 

If this makes no difference from a physical point of view this is irrelevant. This because those teaching are coming from a culture where the basic way to check if something is true or false is not the western scientific method.

 

"Yes, the raising also uses the muscles, but it is less tiring than if I were just sticking my hands up. It is being pushed up by the energy. The only way in which I can describe the sensation is: imagine you put your hand in a basin with no water. You then start puring water in it. If you do nothing your hand will be submerged. But you can just "let the hand float". If you do this the hand will raise with the water."

 

C'mon. You find it tiring to raise your hands? Your example is silly. Your hands will not "just float". Gravity will prevent that. Surely you've not found a way to circumvent the laws of physics. Your whole arm might float if you are submerged but otherwise... rolleyes.gif

You don't find it tiring to stand with your hands up for long periods of time? I am sure many of your students do.

And you are surprised that there are exercises that makes it feel more or less tiring?

 

"Yes, you are using muscles but not only. And the water is giving you clear indications about how high you are to go before the energetic connection would be lost."

 

Jeez. Water is intert. It's not "telling" you anything.

Now you are being silly, childish, and arguing for the sake of arguing. If I say that a thermometer is telling me that the temperature is 37, I don't mean that litterally!

 

"And if I bring down the hands it does feel the sense of unity in the body is gone. It is hard to describe, but I will be happy to show you in my body what I mean."

 

I understand perfectly what you are imagining. Suggestion is a powerful tool. As is neuro-linguistic programming, which Brice has admitted to studying (and allegedly not using).

Don't know what you talking about. Bruce uses NLP all the time. He just does this in the way to convey information. Not in the content.

 

"Yeah, don't tell me, I am arguing with someone who doesn't even know logic!"

Logic? Nothing of what you describe uses logic. It uses alleged subjective experience. Words have actual meanings.

 

I was refering to you asking me if I have ever heard of someone else backing off what Bruce sais about being there a whole technique of people being treated through standing postures. Since we both agree that not finding someone else is not enough to prove that the claim is false I just could not find a reason for you to ask that question at all.

 

So I assumed you must think that indeed that was enough of a proof. So you did not know logic.

Now you have shown that you do know logic...

but now your question ("Can you cite me any other source for this claim?") becomes irrelevant.

[Buddy]

"Since we agree that there is no "easy" way to prove that there is not this discipline already there, we have to use indirect ways. Who will just give us hints, but no definite answers. This until someone speaks with every practitioner, or we find (or Bruce tells us) someone else who knows this discipline we are left guessing out of this partial knowledge."

 

Don't you see how specious this sort of reasoning is? Until we see if every person dies, should we doubt that everyone will die?

 

"Well, Bruce have been pretty consistent with his story about the standing practice. He has given to people different standing postures. You think he invented the whole thing up? That would make him both a genius and totally crazy. It seem harder to believe that than thinking that his story is actually true."

 

Sorry there are more options. You figure it out.

 

"Please describe me "fourth space".

Also, how do you dissolve the energy of the whole body all at once?

And finally, how do you use opening and closing to change your belief system."

 

Sheesh. It's like reading a L. Ron Hubbard novel. Quote me anyplace in the Taoist lexicon where these things are mentioned. Do you really think you can dissolve the energy of your body? Doesn't death quickly spring to mind in such an absurd occurrence?

 

"Hmm, no it's you who need to prove that it does not exist. I am absolutely happy with:

we don't know, Bruce says so, and his teaching is consistent with his affirmation."

 

Ah..."Bruce says so, and his teaching is consistent with his affirmation." Did you think it wouldn't be? To say we don't know is to completely ignore the fact that he is the only one ever to mention it. I absolutely happy that you are cool with that. Everyone believed Jim and Tammy Bakker as well.

 

"If this makes no difference from a physical point of view this is irrelevant. This because those teaching are coming from a culture where the basic way to check if something is true or false is not the western scientific method."

 

Care to site your source?

 

"You don't find it tiring to stand with your hands up for long periods of time? I am sure many of your students do.

And you are surprised that there are exercises that makes it feel more or less tiring?"

 

Oh brother. I did santi and piquan only for a year with Bruce, nine breaths each posture. Odd he's saved this little gem for his latest market. Try it with your"exercises" and see how tired you're not.

 

"Since we both agree that not finding someone else is not enough to prove that the claim is false I just could not find a reason for you to ask that question at all."

 

What? Are you kidding? We DON"T agree. Not finding anyone else IS proof it's false. See my analogy about death above.

 

"Now my claim is that it does not matter what is going on from a physical point of view. Not in the context of this discussion. This discussion is only trying to ascertain if Bruce has made those things up. My claim is that since he backed off his first vague explenations with more detailed further explanations, he is actually showing that his teaching are internally consistent. And this by itself should rule in his favour."

 

That you can't see that this is a strawman argument is telling. But nice two step back from the physical realities. No point in letting facts obscure opinions.

 

" Yeah, this is not a double blind. But is all we have."

Well, it's not all we have. We have lies told by Bruce about his background and his own statements to others about what he is doing.

 

"Also, let's not confuse the western way of breaking up the human body with the eastern one. Or it will all become a huge mess."

 

Again, blind adherence to something one has put all one eggs into must trump reality.

 

 

"there is a sense of oneness of the human body that is maintained throught he whole experience, something that is just missing,"

 

 

Hmmm, you'd think people wouldn't have to apologize for his public behavior, if he were so "one."

 

 

"but now your question ("Can you cite me any other source for this claim?") becomes irrelevant."

 

Since you can't answer it, you side step it.

 

Everything you say boils down to "because Bruce says so." The power of suggestion is indeed a strong one.

You're happy with this stuff P, good on ya. You getting the "advanced stuff" now so it shouldn't be long until you can beam your thoughts into my head. That way we can avoid all this typing.

[Pietro]

ok, let's get it all in one:

Bruce says so,

he is consistent with his story,

I am happy to believe him because his story is consitent, and I am learning.

You are not.

 

Quote me anyplace in the Taoist lexicon where these things are mentioned. Do you really think you can dissolve the energy of your body? Doesn't death quickly spring to mind in such an absurd occurrence?

don't wander, stay on the point. You said you knew everything I knew, I asked you to describe 3 things I recently studied with Bruce, and you didn't.

 

You getting the "advanced stuff" now so it shouldn't be long until you can beam your thoughts into my head. That way we can avoid all this typing.

Would you be able to pick it up?

[gendao]

For me, standing in all its variations is about standing back, and like sitting meditation, discovering a limitless internal landscape.

 

Standing back is the initial intention that should follow all standing postures, from low martial stances to holding a ball, to embracing the tree. This entails letting go of tension, intention and expectation. What is percieved as "reactions" like heat, cold, too much energy, or lack thereof is all just passing scenery. If you quit because the initial reactions stop, you stop before the true practice starts, and if you stop because it is getting too powerful, there is either too much doing, or you haven't felt overwhelmed enough. It is actually at the point where you think you are dying, passing out, or feeling so much pain that you feel you cannot bear it anymore that you are on the brink of true practice.

By "standing back," you mean sort of taking a detached perspective "beside yourself?"

For me, this came as a realization when I did a retreat where we stood with our arms above our heads for 2 hours straight. I thought I was going to vomit, pass out, and even die from the pain. Then, suddenly the scenery changed. It was like a veil had been removed and this immense bliss, and deep physical and energetic quiet filled me. I felt I could stand there forever, and the whole body felt light as a feather.

 

The point of my post is this:

Standing, like a static postures entails getting to a point where the physical body's pre-programmed system breakes down, or gives in, and the chi takes over. That point, call it the "boiling point" can come every time you practice, or it can come after 10 years, depending on you. The amount of days or years does not matter, if you do not take yourself beyond the "boilingpoint", you can practice standing for 20 years and get very little benefit away from general physical well being.

 

So take the challenge: Take it to the boiling point and beyond. And after that, everything is changed, like water, after it is boiled is never the same.

 

h

Reaching the boiling point - I like that. It just sounds correct. Edited November 20, 2007 by vortex

[Buddy]

"he is consistent with his story"

 

This is my point, he's NOT consistent with his story. I've already listed several ways in these threads but it's convenient for you to ignore those because you'd rather be right that correct.

 

"don't wander, stay on the point. You said you knew everything I knew, I asked you to describe 3 things I recently studied with Bruce, and you didn't."

 

I'm saying that what you describe are nonsense. I admit, what I know isn't nonsense. I can demonstrate my skill to others. You can only talk about it.

Can you illustrate in your body those skills I mentioned that I can do? If not you haven't completed what is now being called apparently "beginning" material.

You and your peers are a market that is being well and cleverly marketed to. The market that I was a member of was one who sought out and learned and developed real skills, not hypothetic ones. I said it before, there is a huge gulf between information and skill.

 

I'm done Pietro, you can have the last word. I'll not cast pearls before swine.

[hagar]

By "standing back," you mean sort of taking a detached perspective "beside yourself?"Reaching the boiling point - I like that. It just sounds correct.

 

I think you get my drift. Let the chi do its work. It's much stronger when you really give in to the chi, but don't let go.

 

Just my own experience, glad you caught on.

 

h

[thaddeus]

[Buddy]

T,

I appreciate your response but I'm not making a mistake. I'm well acquainted with the bodies hydrolics (thanks to BKF). But the bottom line is that intention lead the musculature to act.

 

Re: Kumar and martial arts. Those days are gone. When I started with him almost everyone was a MAist. But that was many many years ago. I could teach you how to use his stuff as could a half dozen others. But that's about it.

[Spectrum]

 

I'm Buddy Tripp. I'll give you my address and phone number if you like and we can continue this conversation in person. I'm not a nameless faceless moniker. So I call your bluff. I find you, as the bard described, "all sound and fury signifying nothing." But PM me and we can talk. But I don't suffer fools gladly.

 

Buddy Tripp

90 Lookout Point Rd

Plymouth Ma.

 

See you soon?

 

 

Perfect. Thanks Buddy.