How detremental is external locking method?

[shaolin]

I know this topic has been covered before. A few months ago, I developed some small lumps in my epydidimis and went for an ultrasound scan which discovered a number of emydidimal cysts. The doctor said thay are asymptomatic and dont cause a problem. I realised that regular use of the external finger locking technique on the perenium must have caused it. I ejaculated about 10 times over three days, and the cysts vanished. I know that mantak chaia has said that 40 - 60% of the energy is lost using this method, but is that because you loose semen internally or is it the actual energy lost through the orgasm?

 

When I piss in a glass after using the finger lock method I sometimes see that I end up pissing out some semen. If I were to have an internal orgasm using the big draw, whould I still loose energy? Isnt orgasm a release of energy regardless? Must one need to be totally celibate to totally retain sexual energy?

[Trunk]

1. Here's a good post re: dangers of external locking. Basic advice: don't do it, ever.

 

2nd thing I'd say is that you're view over-emphasizes jing~energy retention. Much more important is to learn to harmonize, open the tissues and channels, still the mind.

 

Both of those troubles are typical of those coming out of certain schools. A lot of refinement, broadening, of the teachings has occurred in the last decade or so.

[effilang]

All i can say is the side effects hurt like a motherf*****

 

Massage the perineum regularly and do a lot of standing and sitting meditation to fix things.

 

The methods thought in the book by Mantak Chia IME will cause serious problems and pain around the perineum.

 

HOWEVER... if instead of locking anything, u simply masturbate (without clenching the perineum) and just stop stimulating yourself in time for the orgasmic build-up to subside, u can direct a lot of that Jing up the spine without external locking or muscle clenches. This way of doing it doesn't cause any congestion at the perineum or cause any problems and IMO is just as effective.

[markern]

All i can say is the side effects hurt like a motherf*****

 

Massage the perineum regularly and do a lot of standing and sitting meditation to fix things.

 

The methods thought in the book by Mantak Chia IME will cause serious problems and pain around the perineum.

 

HOWEVER... if instead of locking anything, u simply masturbate (without clenching the perineum) and just stop stimulating yourself in time for the orgasmic build-up to subside, u can direct a lot of that Jing up the spine without external locking or muscle clenches. This way of doing it doesn't cause any congestion at the perineum or cause any problems and IMO is just as effective.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/9421-authentic-tantrictaoist-sexual-yoga-teachers/

 

Usefull advice in this one.

 

I think breathing is key! Lots of belly breathing when unaroused to get very good control of your breathing.

 

Use LIns teachnique instead. Read Trunks site!

[shaolin]

Thanks, it seems that its better to avoid it. Its so tempting because its a release without outward ejaculation, but perhaps not worth it in the long run.

I just read a section in Sivananda buried yoga where the author says that any type of sexual excitement causes a loss of energy. He says that love of good food, looking good, and desire to be touched or any sensual behaviour all cause a loss of vital energy. I think this might be slightly extreme, but I do agree to a lesser extent. When my sexual deisre is not naturally aroused and I "think" of sexual ideas to get physicially aroused my head hurts, I feel tired and drained, like my energy is dissipating. Even more so than when I go all the way and ejaculate! Anyone else experience this?

 

Interesting link Trunk.

[Phoenix]

Thanks, it seems that its better to avoid it. Its so tempting because its a release without outward ejaculation, but perhaps not worth it in the long run.

I just read a section in Sivananda buried yoga where the author says that any type of sexual excitement causes a loss of energy. He says that love of good food, looking good, and desire to be touched or any sensual behaviour all cause a loss of vital energy. I think this might be slightly extreme, but I do agree to a lesser extent. When my sexual deisre is not naturally aroused and I "think" of sexual ideas to get physicially aroused my head hurts, I feel tired and drained, like my energy is dissipating. Even more so than when I go all the way and ejaculate! Anyone else experience this?

 

Interesting link Trunk.

I agree with Trunk's post above. I think you're focusing too much on energy "retention" and not enough on transformation.

 

It is true that any moment of desire basically functions the same way, no matter what its object. If you cling to the object and try to satisfy the desire, you increase ego-clinging and there is a concomitant sense of feeling drained. On the other hand, if you leave the desire alone and just look at it, you'll find that it will mellow out and open up and transform into bliss. The blissful energy that results is fundamentally no different from desire energy; sometimes you can get it to flip back and forth between desire and bliss. (Focusing your attention on the lower back can sometimes help in this process, or at least it does in my case; so do qigong exercises.) Once you have a stable experience of blissful energy, you can start to move it around.

 

The point is, though, that physical retention of semen is not what drives this process. You mention that you're peeing out sperm; that seems to indicate retrograde ejaculation. What's the difference whether your sperm are exiting normally, or through your bladder? It's the desire energy associated with sexual functioning that's the important thing, and the best thing to do IME seems to be to slowly and gradually mellow it out.

 

Disclaimer: I'm female. However, my experience of orgasm was until recently very similar to that of most men.

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you want to learn to have an orgasm without ejaculation, relax.

 

No, seriously.

 

During stimulation, there are all sorts of feelings going through the body. The problem is that a lot of people, (guys and gals) want to rush the process. You go from 0 to 60 in a quick couple of hand motions, and it's all over. Relax, and feel. Ejaculation and orgasm are two separate processes. Ejaculation is triggered by orgasm. When you relax, and learn to feel when the orgasm is coming, eventually you can learn to relax immediately after the orgasm. The muscles that cause ejaculation don't do their thing, and you feel the pleasure without ejaculation.

 

Trying to use an external lock, or even just trying to tense up some muscles in some weird way, isn't going to do anything but hurt you. Slow down, enjoy the process. Of course, that means if you aren't in a situation where you can't devote a lot of time to practice, you won't be able to practice but you should do it right or not do it at all.

[shaolin]

Thank you both.

[rif]

Hi all,

 

I wish I'd seen this information before trying this technique. I've had Multi-Orgasmic Man sitting around for years, rediscovered it and wanted to give the material a more serious try than in the past. I compared it with Chia's previous book on the same practices as well.

 

I want to describe what I experienced this week, to see if this matches what anyone else has experienced. Warning: a frank post follows!

 

So I tried the Three Finger Press on Monday. The books describe that very firm pressure is needed. As I understand the technique, firm pressure will halt semen elimination by blocking the urethra. In the past, I don't think I applied sufficient pressure.

 

I thought I needed to push deeper into the perineum -- "up to the first joint of the finger" it is written, so I tried to be very firm with pressure. I pressed in before I felt an orgasm was imminent, and ejaculation started. Nothing seemed to be coming out, but I could feel the contractions in the pressed area, and after a moment I stopped pressing my fingers. It didn't seem right to keep pressing. Although it was delayed momentarily, the typical amount of ejaculation seemed to come out as soon as I stopped pressing.

 

I didn't think much of it at the time, but three days later, I feel like my perineum area is a little sore. I also feel like I have to urinate more frequently. To be fair, I also have a touch of irritable bowels (sorry if that's TMI) so that whole area is a bit aggravated and it's a little hard to separate the discomfort in perineum and "bowel area." But I do believe the perineum area itself is a little irritated.

 

For anyone who has tried this in the past, is it common to feel sore in the perineum, even after allowing ejaculation to occur? Or a more frequent need to urinate? I wonder if this is the same as the bicycle seat effect. I wouldn't expect one application of this technique to cause problems, especially as I didn't hold it.

 

I'm inclined to disregard this technique as I don't feel comfortable doing it. I'm hoping the tenderness in the area will go away with no lasting harm done; time will tell.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hi all,

 

I wish I'd seen this information before trying this technique. I've had Multi-Orgasmic Man sitting around for years, rediscovered it and wanted to give the material a more serious try than in the past. I compared it with Chia's previous book on the same practices as well.

 

I want to describe what I experienced this week, to see if this matches what anyone else has experienced. Warning: a frank post follows!

 

So I tried the Three Finger Press on Monday. The books describe that very firm pressure is needed. As I understand the technique, firm pressure will halt semen elimination by blocking the urethra. In the past, I don't think I applied sufficient pressure.

 

I thought I needed to push deeper into the perineum -- "up to the first joint of the finger" it is written, so I tried to be very firm with pressure. I pressed in before I felt an orgasm was imminent, and ejaculation started. Nothing seemed to be coming out, but I could feel the contractions in the pressed area, and after a moment I stopped pressing my fingers. It didn't seem right to keep pressing. Although it was delayed momentarily, the typical amount of ejaculation seemed to come out as soon as I stopped pressing.

 

I didn't think much of it at the time, but three days later, I feel like my perineum area is a little sore. I also feel like I have to urinate more frequently. To be fair, I also have a touch of irritable bowels (sorry if that's TMI) so that whole area is a bit aggravated and it's a little hard to separate the discomfort in perineum and "bowel area." But I do believe the perineum area itself is a little irritated.

 

For anyone who has tried this in the past, is it common to feel sore in the perineum, even after allowing ejaculation to occur? Or a more frequent need to urinate? I wonder if this is the same as the bicycle seat effect. I wouldn't expect one application of this technique to cause problems, especially as I didn't hold it.

 

I'm inclined to disregard this technique as I don't feel comfortable doing it. I'm hoping the tenderness in the area will go away with no lasting harm done; time will tell.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

I haven't tried the "finger locking" method, but I have tried a few other "locking" techniques, mostly done using just the muscles in the area with no hands. Without going too much into it (I've done so in the past, but really the only thing to take away from it is what I posted above in this thread) basically if you relax and don't mess around with it for a while, you should be okay.

 

I'd give it about a week, maybe two, then try to ejaculate normally a few times. For me, this helps kind of "clear out the system", gets the muscles and everything working out naturally, and also helps to flush out stuff that might have gotten stuck somewhere on previous attempt.

 

Also, exercise. Get the blood moving away from your genitals and into your limbs. Go for a jog, do some pushups, jumping jacks, whatever works for you. Rebalance your body. If you only tried the method once (or even just a few times minimally) and you are still pretty young, your body should be able to bounce back fairly easily.

[gendao]

The goal is not to retain semen.

The goal is to sublimate prenatal jing into yang qi...rather than get aroused and let it convert into postnatal jing. Once it becomes postnatal jing and seeks release via semen...forcefully blocking its exit will only cause stagnation at that point. You've already lost the battle & are only making it worse now..

Edited May 13, 2010 by vortex

[rif]

Without going too much into it (I've done so in the past, but really the only thing to take away from it is what I posted above in this thread) basically if you relax and don't mess around with it for a while, you should be okay.

Thank you for responding.

 

I'd give it about a week, maybe two, then try to ejaculate normally a few times. For me, this helps kind of "clear out the system", gets the muscles and everything working out naturally, and also helps to flush out stuff that might have gotten stuck somewhere on previous attempt.

Makes sense.

 

Also, exercise. Get the blood moving away from your genitals and into your limbs. Go for a jog, do some pushups, jumping jacks, whatever works for you. Rebalance your body. If you only tried the method once (or even just a few times minimally) and you are still pretty young, your body should be able to bounce back fairly easily.

No, really, only once and that was abortive, as I said. I wouldn't have expected any soreness at all! But perhaps it was simply the pressure to an area that doesn't usualyl receive it. As for young, I consider myself young at 37.

 

Thanks again for the suggestions. The book makes this technique sound perfectly safe, but I'm not so sure.

 

 

The goal is to sublimate prenatal jing into yang qi...rather then get aroused and let it convert into postnatal jing. Once it becomes postnatal jing and seeks release via semen...forcefully blocking its exit will only cause stagnation at that point. You've already lost the battle & are only making it worse now..

Thank you for clarifying, I got that sense around the forum. The book(s) do talk in terms of semen, and perhaps they aren't quite accurate, or at least as people here practice. But I am not likely to pursue this technique further in any case. Sloppy Zhang's gentle approach sounds much better to me.

[markern]

THis site:

 

http://www.reuniting.info/

 

and Marina Robertsons books describe well a gentle uncomplicated way of doing it were it mostly just happens by itself. THe aneros will also teach you that because only by relaxing can you really make it work.

[宁]

Hi Shaolin,

 

in order to transform, you need to have enough ingredient for the transformation.

for qigong retention is a major issue, because qigong practicioners (not reffering to ammateurs here ) are not allowed to practice for two to three days after they ejaculate. It's very harmful for the body. It seems this rule is often overlooked, but you can check masters like Yang Jwing-ming for details on it... there are other sources available, but YJM seems to be more accesible.

 

After the locking, you need to draw the energy from there, and really insist on relaxing and circulating. Jogging after can be a fairly good method if you don't have enough control over your Qi.

If you block and leave it there, you only do half of the technique, and it is only normal that blocked energy should cause pain and swelling in the area. The energy needs to be circulated and evenly spread thru the body.

 

Testicle breathing... it can cool down and heal any area you sent the energy to. Also meditating with a tenis ball, or a small rolled towel under your ass at the perineum point. Short periods of celibacy can be a great aid also... two-three weeks.

 

It's easiest without retention because (physical and psychic) tension doesn't accumulate.

However, this tension has the potential of growing into inner power.

It's like choosing to ride a bike rather than a Kawasaki. It's safer. But there are many draw backs.

 

In MC's books it's said that the techniques weren't supposed to be known by many.

There were many prerequisites necessary before a master would teach these techniquest to a student.

I think the same remains true today.

Stephen T. Chang teaches the same method of external locking, and it adds something interesting to it. So it's not just MC. My thought is, you should take into consideration that maybe you didn't understand something about this practice...

 

For more information, check up the Contributed Article section, there is a thread I made there re Mantak Chia and retention. Trunk is a good person, but his website is a little bit biased, if you ask me - he needs more information and quite a couple of new experiences. Otherwise, if you keep the practice at the level that he describes, you won't get any noticeable benefit from them... They are supposed to bring power, and make you feel as strong as an ox. That amount of power is needed for transformation, otherwise you consume the body's emergency resources and that can bring disaster.

 

PS: I think you shouldn't practice the external method over extended periods of time. It's idea is to give you a feeling on how you feel after having sex, having an orgasm, and yet keeping the fluid inside. It's just a springboard towards internal locking.

However, if you can't reach that point yet, it's no biggie. If you understood the external locking correctly, you should be able to practice it over the years, with little or no discomfort, like me for instance.

There are many common mistakes that people make when approaching this practice. Many of them are described in the Contributed Articles section... I'll make it easier for you to find it by copy-pasting this message there, so you can find it on new messages.

 

my 2 c

 

L1, over and out

[EagleShen]

I came across Chia's stuff early on, many years ago, did a lot of external locking, and gave myself a goodly haemorrhoid.

 

It can be good to get a sense of what's possible, but i'd agree with Sloppy Zhang, relax!

 

IMO far more important that what you do in sex is what you do in your life otherwise. If you are consciously breathing and circulating your energy and have a good practice to transform the Yin Ching (the unaroused sexual energy), then the energy has somewhere to go: you need to open the subtle energy channels and soft tissue so that the internal transformation can take place with the hotter energy.

 

Also, Chia (and a lot of others giving advice on this stuff) say get to 90% or as close as you can, then draw in the energy. Usually by then it's way late, unless you're highly proficient i think the energy is way to hot and will only go straight to the head if you're lucky. Get to about 60% and relax, see what happens, see what you feel. I've had the most incredible full body orgasms without ejaculation arise naturally, and sometimes quite subtly, by doing this - with no side effects.

 

It all comes down to self love.

[Sloppy Zhang]

It all comes down to self love.

 

Masturbation?

 

[markern]

I agree with Trunk's post above. I think you're focusing too much on energy "retention" and not enough on transformation.

 

It is true that any moment of desire basically functions the same way, no matter what its object. If you cling to the object and try to satisfy the desire, you increase ego-clinging and there is a concomitant sense of feeling drained. On the other hand, if you leave the desire alone and just look at it, you'll find that it will mellow out and open up and transform into bliss. The blissful energy that results is fundamentally no different from desire energy; sometimes you can get it to flip back and forth between desire and bliss. (Focusing your attention on the lower back can sometimes help in this process, or at least it does in my case; so do qigong exercises.) Once you have a stable experience of blissful energy, you can start to move it around.

 

The point is, though, that physical retention of semen is not what drives this process. You mention that you're peeing out sperm; that seems to indicate retrograde ejaculation. What's the difference whether your sperm are exiting normally, or through your bladder? It's the desire energy associated with sexual functioning that's the important thing, and the best thing to do IME seems to be to slowly and gradually mellow it out.

 

Disclaimer: I'm female. However, my experience of orgasm was until recently very similar to that of most men.

 

 

Great post!

[Taoist81]

 

Stephen T. Chang teaches the same method of external locking, and it adds something interesting to it. So it's not just MC. My thought is, you should take into consideration that maybe you didn't understand something about this practice...

 

Where did you see Chang advocating an external lock? His Internal Exercises and Tao of Sexology both (from memory) only suggest the Deer Exercise (anal clinch) as a method for retention.

[rif]

Perhaps I should have started a new thread, because in my case I didn't retain anything (that I know of). I appreciate the general useful information, but I was posting primarily to learn if anyone else experienced perineum area discomfort after the first time they tried the Three Finger Lock. It's four days later and I'm still a bit sore; maybe I pressed too hard and sensitized the area.

 

Oh brave new world!

[sifusufi]

1. Here's a good post re: dangers of external locking. Basic advice: don't do it, ever.

All i can say is the side effects hurt like a motherf*****

I never took out the Universal Tao Health Insurance

 

Since my last counsel w/ Senor Trunk my wife suggested I visualise all the pain and bone spurring in the hips and shoot it out

and let her handle the heavy lifting.

According to her (what she had studied, read) if you are not a master living on high you have to spill (healthily)

 

We still cant identify the cause of the spurring, but since cutting down on caffeine, eliminating pe*si (WTF is up w/ their ad's anyway)

life is good.

Now! if I could transform all this nettime into stretching time I might get somewhere

 

 

[宁]

Where did you see Chang advocating an external lock? His Internal Exercises and Tao of Sexology both (from memory) only suggest the Deer Exercise (anal clinch) as a method for retention.

 

Look again. Page 64, to be more exact.

And Deer Exercise is not anal clinch.

Interesting that Chinese masters seem to agree on these matters.

[NeiChuan]

Masturbation?

 

 

Haha pro.

[EagleShen]

Perhaps I should have started a new thread, because in my case I didn't retain anything (that I know of). I appreciate the general useful information, but I was posting primarily to learn if anyone else experienced perineum area discomfort after the first time they tried the Three Finger Lock. It's four days later and I'm still a bit sore; maybe I pressed too hard and sensitized the area.

 

Oh brave new world!

 

Retention is a bit of a favourite topic around here and we all have our favourite hobby horses about the whole thing, so apologies for not actually answering you.

 

Re the retention, you can retain a measure of energy by absorbing it through the bladder, the amount is up to debate, and really depends on whether you're consciously drawing energy into the body and circulating.

 

Re the discomfort, that's fairly normal, four days is a little long, i'd advise ejaculating if you've not done so already, and perhaps you did bruise the area if you pressed too hard - most guys are a bit numb on this part of the body so you can easily press harder than is good for you. Ideally if you insist on using it, you should be pressing only hard enough to help you control ejaculation, which, like a set of training wheels, should become lighter and lighter. But re the cautions mentioned, it's better to find other methods. Just deeply breathing will totally change your experience of sex.

[rif]

Retention is a bit of a favourite topic around here and we all have our favourite hobby horses about the whole thing, so apologies for not actually answering you.

I did get some general answers, but I felt like my question was getting lost among this apparently controversial topic. Thank you for coming back with your response.

 

Re the discomfort, that's fairly normal, four days is a little long, i'd advise ejaculating if you've not done so already, and perhaps you did bruise the area if you pressed too hard - most guys are a bit numb on this part of the body so you can easily press harder than is good for you.

It's now a week and I still have discomfort down there, although the sensation is a bit different today; more intense, almost as if feeling were returning, although I never lost feeling. Honestly, I can't imagine that a couple seconds of pressure -- even if overly hard -- could cause such discomfort! Although it obviously did. I re-read Multi-Orgasmic Man to look for "troubleshooting," and the author(s) mention that discomfort is normal at first, but pain is not. Presumably I pressed too hard, or too far forward.

 

On the plus side, everything seems to function, despite any discomfort or pressure. I am also very aware of my clothes pressing on the perineum area as I sit; something that is normally not uncomfortable.

 

Ideally if you insist on using it, you should be pressing only hard enough to help you control ejaculation, which, like a set of training wheels, should become lighter and lighter. But re the cautions mentioned, it's better to find other methods. Just deeply breathing will totally change your experience of sex.

I am not comfortable experimenting further with this technique at this time. I know many people have used it successfully, but I am not one of them.

[shaolin]

Great advice, many thanks!