Shen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[soaring crane]

Hi,

 

just a quick note before nodding off in the feathers and since I was in this forum anyway - for anyone who's read ZAMM, did you catch the similarity of the description of "Gumption" and what we call Shen?

 

I explain Shen here in Germany as "Geist", which Germans relate mostly to the notion of "Mind", except I tell them, no, not that kind of Geist, think "Team Geist" (Team Spirit) or "Enthusiasmus" (German, and also Greek for "Enthusiasm"). Well, in ZAMM, Pirsig also explains the root of the word Enthusiasm which breaks down to "Filled with the Spirit", it's also Shen.

 

Wow, lol, I dig it.

 

Well, that was my quick 2c for now...

 

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Hi,

 

just a quick note before nodding off in the feathers and since I was in this forum anyway - for anyone who's read ZAMM, did you catch the similarity of the description of "Gumption" and what we call Shen?

 

I explain Shen here in Germany as "Geist", which Germans relate mostly to the notion of "Mind", except I tell them, no, not that kind of Geist, think "Team Geist" (Team Spirit) or "Enthusiasmus" (German, and also Greek for "Enthusiasm"). Well, in ZAMM, Pirsig also explains the root of the word Enthusiasm which breaks down to "Filled with the Spirit", it's also Shen.

 

Wow, lol, I dig it.

 

Well, that was my quick 2c for now...

 

 

What are you talking about Soaring Crane.... I have no idea.... what are you getting at?

 

You know I still haven't managed to finish this book.... I'm not sure why...God knows I've tried...even I want to finish this book I can't for some reason. I always end up having to start up a few chapters before where I had finished and then only end up another chapter ahead...then the process begins all over again!

 

Actually I just realize I've just taught myself something about my own character!

[soaring crane]

What are you talking about Soaring Crane.... I have no idea.... what are you getting at?

 

er,

 

Well, you should read it through someday, Ninpopo. I gets better as you go along and the final chapters are actually very poetic and dramatic. It's the Moby Dick of the 1970s.

 

I've gone through it two and a half times and picked up on this Gumption/Enthusiasm/Shen thing this last time. It just sort of stuck out at me. If Pirsig had had more exposure to Daoist philosophy, he would have found everything he was looking for. But I guess then he wouldn't have had a book.

 

Hey, he should have waited for Tao Of Pooh to come out first!

 

 

 

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

er,

 

Well, you should read it through someday, Ninpopo. I gets better as you go along and the final chapters are actually very poetic and dramatic. It's the Moby Dick of the 1970s.

 

I've gone through it two and a half times and picked up on this Gumption/Enthusiasm/Shen thing this last time. It just sort of stuck out at me. If Pirsig had had more exposure to Daoist philosophy, he would have found everything he was looking for. But I guess then he wouldn't have had a book.

 

Hey, he should have waited for Tao Of Pooh to come out first!

 

You right, it does get better as it goes along, I'm 3 quarters the way through, and I really love the book..... I've been in actual possession of it for about 5 years now, but it's been around me all my life as it was in the family home...... but still.... that last quarter....???

 

Sometimes I wonder if I'm deliberately dragging it out because I don't want it to finish. In general what seems to happen is I read a particular chapter and it kind of sticks with me and resonates in some way; it takes me a long time for me to truly assimilate it and understand the deeper meaning it's hinting at. That books' wide open where personal interpretation is concerned.

 

Don't tell me about the final chapters Soaring Crane..... .... you may colour my interpretation.... I'm looking forward to those, I reckon I'll get there within the next twenty years.... then I'll start at the beginning again. Some things in life are to be savoured, I've never taken this long to read any book.... I figure I'll just let it read itself when it chooses to be read.

[voidisyinyang]

Yo -- just a quickie on Pirsig -- he wrote his "classic" in an apartment above a shoe store in the "ghetto" of Minneapolis where I grew up -- Lake st. and Chicago. But his dad was a professor -- law professor -- so nice connection there. Still it's a pretty good book but too western in my opinion and yes my sister lived in Germany for 2 years teaching english at the university in Bonn -- almost married a chemist who liked Snoopy (also from the Twin Cities - Saint Paul Minnesota).

 

over and out.

 

P.s. shen is more like photon holographic light energy --

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Still it's a pretty good book but too western in my opinion

 

 

I'm curious Drew as in what way you feel it's too western? I don't necessarily disagree actually, I mean it is a story about a westerner with a rather strong focus on mechanics as an ongoing analogy. Is this what you mean? Or is there another angle your coming at it from? I would be interested to hear it Drew.

[voidisyinyang]

Well I'm against Plato.

 

I'm curious Drew as in what way you feel it's too western? I don't necessarily disagree actually, I mean it is a story about a westerner with a rather strong focus on mechanics as an ongoing analogy. Is this what you mean? Or is there another angle your coming at it from? I would be interested to hear it Drew.

[soaring crane]

Well I'm against Plato.

 

 

lol, cute. But wouldn't Phaedrus agree? ZAMM goes beyond the Western and lands in the Asian, but isn't really aware of it in the end, I think.

 

Regarding Shen, yeah, I know the finer definitions but the "standard" translation into German is "Geist". And Geist means Spirit, and the Spirit may well be "more like photon holographic light energy"

 

But when practicing Qigong on a more, er, concrete level, "Body, Mind, Spirit" and that stuff, it's better, or at least more functional, to look at the "Spirit" part more as a kind of morale or "team spirit", the mood. It's the Spirit that bring the Whiskey to life. Enjoy it! This is similar to Pirsig's discussion of "Gumption", which is why I started the thread.

 

Btw, the edition I have (25th anniversary?) has a lot of extra info including an extended Foreword and Afterward plus a collection of letters he wrote with his eventual publisher - very interesting stuff. And then the story of his son, Chris and what happened to him... sad, but he makes something positive of it which I found very heartwarming.

 

Yeah, Nin, if you check in again, you should really read the book through.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

Wow that sounds good. I actually liked Lila better though although I "don't recall" any details -- just it was about love I think. If you want to see something cool about qigong -- I think you saw this already though:

 

 

 

 

lol, cute. But wouldn't Phaedrus agree? ZAMM goes beyond the Western and lands in the Asian, but isn't really aware of it in the end, I think.

 

Regarding Shen, yeah, I know the finer definitions but the "standard" translation into German is "Geist". And Geist means Spirit, and the Spirit may well be "more like photon holographic light energy"

 

But when practicing Qigong on a more, er, concrete level, "Body, Mind, Spirit" and that stuff, it's better, or at least more functional, to look at the "Spirit" part more as a kind of morale or "team spirit", the mood. It's the Spirit that bring the Whiskey to life. Enjoy it! This is similar to Pirsig's discussion of "Gumption", which is why I started the thread.

 

Btw, the edition I have (25th anniversary?) has a lot of extra info including an extended Foreword and Afterward plus a collection of letters he wrote with his eventual publisher - very interesting stuff. And then the story of his son, Chris and what happened to him... sad, but he makes something positive of it which I found very heartwarming.

 

Yeah, Nin, if you check in again, you should really read the book through.

[soaring crane]

Wow that sounds good. I actually liked Lila better though although I "don't recall" any details -- just it was about love I think. If you want to see something cool about qigong -- I think you saw this already though:

 

 

It just happened to be the issue of the book Amazon sent me when I ordered it.

 

And, lol, yes, I think I've seen everything youtube has to offer in way of Chunyi Lin. A wonderful person, full of Dao. That's about the best thing I can say about anyone. I'd post some links to Prof. Cong Yongchun, the grandfather and guiding light of my own school, but there's nothing on the internet about him. I have some videos, but can't post them.

[voidisyinyang]

Ah "ancient Chinese secret" stuff -- that was a great 1970s commercial in the U.S. about a laundry detergent. Then there's the old "pull my finger" response on my part.

 

It just happened to be the issue of the book Amazon sent me when I ordered it.

 

And, lol, yes, I think I've seen everything youtube has to offer in way of Chunyi Lin. A wonderful person, full of Dao. That's about the best thing I can say about anyone. I'd post some links to Prof. Cong Yongchun, the grandfather and guiding light of my own school, but there's nothing on the internet about him. I have some videos, but can't post them.

[soaring crane]

Ah "ancient Chinese secret" stuff -- that was a great 1970s commercial in the U.S. about a laundry detergent. Then there's the old "pull my finger" response on my part.

 

 

lol, no, nothing like that. No esoteric secrets, no hidden wisdoms or claims to ownership of the one true path, just a really wonderful man. I wish I could post some of the videos I have but I just don't have permission.

 

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah in the U.S. we have the constitution which has freedom of speech -- as long as it's "fair use" and a statement of opinion then we are protected by the Bill of Rights. If you are not selling it then it's fair use. Sometimes copyright will say no reproduction at all is allowed.

 

For example I wrote in a pamphlet that I thought Chunyi Lin was the most powerful qigong master in the U.S. He read it and said to me "You can't write that. You can say I am very wonderful." I just laughed. I mean the paradox being now he's telling me what I can't write yet that demonstrates even more power! haha. I mean I understand why he said it but I was writing my opinion and legally I can do that. I can be sued for libel or defamation but as long as it's a public issue and an opinion then it's protected.

 

For example the "signs of the times" website by Laura who channels the Cassiopeans - the website started attacking this new age healer in Seattle who had been convicted for having some secret homosexual liason with one of his students -- or something like that. Anyway they were calling him a sleezebag, etc. and a big fake, etc. and so he sued the website! haha. The judge threw it out under the SLAPP law which is "Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation" -- it means someone uses their money to stifle free speech.

 

So anyway it's an interesting issue about whether permission is needed since it entails a type of informal master-slave relation -- as if a person has to be feudal or something. haha. Maybe it's a nice thing to do but legally not required -- but then maybe the law is different in other countries. I know the U.K. has vastly different libel defamation laws so a writer who is published in several countries will then be sued in the U.K. since it's easier to be censored -- this happened to a journalist who exposed a Saudi Royalty who was connected to the terrorists of 911.

 

lol, no, nothing like that. No esoteric secrets, no hidden wisdoms or claims to ownership of the one true path, just a really wonderful man. I wish I could post some of the videos I have but I just don't have permission.

[Mal]

You know I still haven't managed to finish this book.... I'm not sure why...God knows I've tried...even I want to finish this book I can't for some reason. I always end up having to start up a few chapters before where I had finished and then only end up another chapter ahead...then the process begins all over again!

 

Me too, jinx strange isn't it.

 

I seem to always stop around 1/2 way, after the ECT part and the personality change (IIRC as it's been a WHILE) This book has been under my bed for decades.

[soaring crane]

So anyway it's an interesting issue about whether permission is needed since it entails a type of informal master-slave relation --

 

Interesting train of thought, lol. You mull this stuff over in full lotus?

 

I really just mean out of respect for the humble man's wishes, I don't publish videos at YouTube. I wasn't talking about legal permission and in fact it would never occur to me the even think along those lines. Master/Slave? Yin/Yang.

 

Besides, it's just some home videos of him practicing Fanhuangong and Qigong Walking. I admit that, yeah, I'd like to show him off a little but, it's really a non-issue for me.

 

Btw, I'm American, fwiw, which isn't much.

 

And, hey, ZAMM really takes off at the halfway point. The personality shift is done very subtly and the final pages are poetry.

 

Es lebe der Phaedrus!

[buscon]

Hi,

 

just a quick note before nodding off in the feathers and since I was in this forum anyway - for anyone who's read ZAMM, did you catch the similarity of the description of "Gumption" and what we call Shen?

 

I explain Shen here in Germany as "Geist", which Germans relate mostly to the notion of "Mind", except I tell them, no, not that kind of Geist, think "Team Geist" (Team Spirit) or "Enthusiasmus" (German, and also Greek for "Enthusiasm"). Well, in ZAMM, Pirsig also explains the root of the word Enthusiasm which breaks down to "Filled with the Spirit", it's also Shen.

 

 

Sounds interesting, I have to check it out. I read pirsig's book some years ago and I really enjoyed: maybe I should read it again now that I'm more into taoism.

 

Thanks for the tip.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Me too, jinx strange isn't it.

 

I seem to always stop around 1/2 way, after the ECT part and the personality change (IIRC as it's been a WHILE) This book has been under my bed for decades.

 

June 2010.

 

Book still unread.

 

We should have a Zen and the Art of Motorcycle book club chapter by chapter sort of thing. I'm fairly sure if you or I have anything to do with it though, we'll give up half way through.

[Mal]

June 2010.

 

Book still unread.

 

We should have a Zen and the Art of Motorcycle book club chapter by chapter sort of thing.

Well I'm pretty sure my copy is still under the bed, actually I think it's on the floor downstairs

 

I'm fairly sure if you or I have anything to do with it though, we'll give up half way through.

that does seem to be my track record, so many books so little time

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Hey, I re-read this book about every 5 years. It's been longer than that this time, though. This book never fails to bring me so fully into his world that I begin to experience my mind become colored by the book, and my thoughts and perceptions are informed by the writing... it feels as though my life is somehow framed inside the mind and writing of Phaedrus/Pirsig. A really delicious feeling! I also particularly enjoy the part where Phaedrus argues for what would happen if a school had no grades.

 

By the way, for more insight, there is a Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that is quite good and further fleshes out the reading experience.

[nac]

Enthusiasm originally meant to be possessed by a god. The -thus- part is actually derived from theos, Greek for god. You know who the Bacchantes were, right? The cult of Bacchus used to hold rituals where they tore apart a live goat with their bare hands and consumed its raw flesh. (note the parallels with the Eucharist in Catholic ceremony) This state of intoxication was called "enthusiasm" because they believed the worshipers were being possessed by Bacchus himself.