Enlightenment-a TTB definition.

[everseeking]

Starting this thread to see of everyone can discuss what they think Enlightenment is, and work on (hopefully) a TTB common definition.

 

I'll start.

 

When you are unwaveringly aware of the difference between logic and emotion,

 

When you realize that you are here now, and that you are a part of 'here and now'-and that 'you' will not always be,

 

When you see through other people's games (and your own) as if they were clear as crystal,

 

When you accept your mortality and stop denying the gravity of your existence,

 

And when you realize that you have, in this life you are living, been given the most precious gift that can be had-

 

In that understanding, you are enlightened.

 

Thanks-

 

Nate

Edited January 28, 2010 by everseeking

[z00se]

When your ultimate perfect inner love/calmness/balance whatever u want to call it is not effected by any external influences. During this period you are enlightened. Just because you've been enlightened doesn't mean you always will be.

 

You overcome your karmic conditioning because the karma is not external to you, it is you. When you have the inner love/calmness the world, which incidentely is your world, is unable to give you and good or bad karma, only the constant unchanging level of inner love/calmness which has been labeled as the ultimate truth.

 

Then you don't control yourself any more, you are controlled by God/Tao, or the real YOU. (Well you already are, but then you will stop fighting it :-)

 

Also the common thought that we are different to animals, and that only we can transend and animals can't is rubbish i believe. Every living thing has the ability.

 

Of course there are different levels of enlightenment, and if you are ultimately enlightened you wouldn't do anything, only sit and be. Everything would already be getting done for you by the tao. Your body would decay away if not kept alive by those people caring for you around you - all of whome are also "you" and the tao.

 

Thats my understanding of it anyhow. It's not all the whiz bang wonders it's cracked up to be. The more enlightened you are the more useless you become to your ego, finally your ego will be totally gone but to what benefit?

 

Total enlightenment is for those who can't hack it in the material world. Enlightenment is required for those who have been overcome by the material world.

 

Why not enjoy the pleasures and pains of both worlds. :-)

Edited January 28, 2010 by z00se

[Sunya]

Too many words. Enlightenment is none of those things.. Enlightenment is simply waking up to what is.

 

 

Total enlightenment is for those who can't hack it in the material world. Enlightenment is required for those who have been overcome by the material world.

 

This is a joke, right? This has nothing to do with escape. If that's how you see it then you are grossly mistaken. Enlightenment is for those who aren't satisfied with the material world and the answers given by society and its goals. Enlightenment is for those unsatisfied with life the way they were raised to live. Enlightenment is for those who yearn to wake up to their original nature because the lie can only be lived for so long. You can only pretend for a finite amount of time before the mask starts itching.

 

Thats my understanding of it anyhow. It's not all the whiz bang wonders it's cracked up to be. The more enlightened you are the more useless you become to your ego, finally your ego will be totally gone but to what benefit?

 

The more enlightened you are the more useful you become. The less ego the more wisdom. The less ego the more compassion. To what benefit? For the benefit of all beings.

Edited January 28, 2010 by mikaelz

[Stigweard]

[z00se]

mikaelz: I understand your arguement but...

 

We are given an ego to survive in this physical realm. It does serve a purpose. It can bend our fate, choose our own path to our unchoosable destination. Here we have an opportunity for some egotistical choices to do what we want to do. We have eterity to be one with the tao, we don't have an eternity in our physical bodies.

 

You're right FULLY enlightened people aren't satisfied with life in societies but thats where all the people are. FULLY enlightened people don't do well in societies. If you don't find a wife and have children (as i imagine a high percentage of enlightened people don't) you have lost your ability to create a new life.

 

I think some level of enlightenment is great and needed but it's nice to enjoy satisfying your ego while you have it. Once you know how to get rid of it you can get rid of it any time, as long as you don't let your ego get too strong therefore making it more difficult. Apart from that you are part of the physical world and regardless of if you are following the truth or not truth i believe it does not matter. We have the ability to follow either, it's our birthright and we pay for it ourselves anyway with the karma.

 

It's each and every individual's own decision as to what path they want to walk, and how enlightened they want to be. I believe it's equally as difficult (if not more difficult) to regain your ego as it is to regain your enlightenment (since enlightenment is effortless and gaining an ego is effort).

 

Perhaps the ego is the greatest gift. Have you given yours up for mankind? If so send more chi and i'll hoard it with the rest of mine

[C T]

The fun thing about enlightenment is that the one who IS will tell you (If he/she is truthful) that there is actually no such thing as "enlightenment". Figure that out?

[Gerard]

Sorry any attempts to define this complex topic are fruitless. It needs to be experienced first, then teach the rest how to get there (the Buddha did) because even in that case they won't be able to grasp it.

 

Give theoretical discussions up. Start...

[Apech]

Sorry any attempts to define this complex topic are fruitless. It needs to be experienced first, then teach the rest how to get there (the Buddha did) because even in that case they won't be able to grasp it.

 

Give theoretical discussions up. Start...

 

Start standing on one leg?

 

Cool.

[Marblehead]

The fun thing about enlightenment is that the one who IS will tell you (If he/she is truthful) that there is actually no such thing as "enlightenment". Figure that out?

 

Darn! Now I have nothing to say.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sunya]

mikaelz: I understand your arguement but...

 

We are given an ego to survive in this physical realm.

 

We are given an ego? by who? I don't buy the Creator model nor do I believe that just because things are as they are, there is necessity for that.

 

 

You're right FULLY enlightened people aren't satisfied with life in societies but thats where all the people are. FULLY enlightened people don't do well in societies. If you don't find a wife and have children (as i imagine a high percentage of enlightened people don't) you have lost your ability to create a new life.

 

You're mistaken in that full enlightenment = no ego = can't survive or live or do anything conventional. Siddhas (highly awakened ones) tend to do just fine. They sometimes get married, they have students, they sometimes begin traditions that last for thousands of years (Buddha, Jesus). Enlightenment does not mean you disappear and can't do anything, like a leaf in a stream. Enlightenment is empowerment.

[soaring crane]

Can anybody tell us what it isn't?

[Art]

The fun thing about enlightenment is that the one who IS will tell you (If he/she is truthful) that there is actually no such thing as "enlightenment". Figure that out?

 

I agree. Didn't someone say,

 

"Those who know don't speak"

"Those who speak don't know"

"Those who know and have spoken wish they wouldn't have"

 

I think that means figure it out on your own.

 

I also agree with the notion of experiencing enlightment and not being taught. Experience for youself and compare notes. What one experiences may or may not be the same for another.

 

But, heck, what the hell do I know?

 

Good topic.

[Encephalon]

I came to realize that mind is no other than mountains and rivers and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars. - Dogen

[Reader]

[Stigweard]

Seeing we are in a Taoist Forum:

 

"The process of spiritual attainment proceeds through six phases or levels, beginning with personality refinement and conscious refinement and culminating in becoming Tao.

 

Step One: Chi refinement and Natural Meditation as the cultivation of chi.

Step Two: Teh Tao: Receiving or discovering the path and learning the Tao.

Step Three: Wu Tao: Enlightened by Tao.

Step Four: Ming Tao: Lucidified with Tao.

Step Five: Teh Tao: Gaining Tao, and Tao also gains you. You live beyond your personal cares.

Step Six: Chen Tao: Attaining Tao. Your physical presence gradually merges with the invisible reality of Tao, but you are still able to respond, if you choose, and appear in form. You have achieved spiritual immortality, not physical immortality in the ordinary sense of a life that needs to eat, sleep, and pay taxes."

 

P65, Ni, Hua Ching, "Enrich Your Life With Virtue", Seven Star Communications, CA 1999

 

Blessings

[Guest paul walter]

Can anybody tell us what it isn't?

 

 

Everything else. All the things we are familiar with.

[UTI]

[Taomeow]

Can anybody tell us what it isn't?

 

Yup.

 

It isn't a taoist concept.

 

The taoist concept is a state of being a "real human" (in Cleary's translations), a "sage" (in Wilhelm's) or a "jun zi" (left untranslated by Ritsema/Sabbadini to mean "man/woman of tao").

 

Basically, enlightenment is a carrot and ignorance, a stick alternatively waved in front of disciples' noses by non-taoist adepts to get them to feel inadequate; also used for self-aggrandation by the waving party (if I hold the carrot and the stick, it must mean I have access to the great big pile of carrots and sticks and you don't, na na na na na...)

[C T]

[Reader]

[Reader]

What happens then? Absolutely nothing. Life carries on just like before, although there will be a slight difference this time around. What this difference will be is completely up to the individual. Some grasp it and it becomes a burden, while for some it means total freedom. Funny thing this concept is.

 

I hope you are wrong here.

 

What about supernatural power, immortality, heaven/hell, etc. you name it? I understand it is all side effects but it is something worth to mention, no?

 

There are a number of enlightenment levels. What you speak of, may be a very low level of enlightenment?

 

Again from Master Nan book, we (not only the body) all will be destroyed by fire, flood, and wind disasters unless we can enter the fourth Samadhi.

 

Thank you.

[C T]

I hope you are wrong here.

 

What about supernatural power, immortality, heaven/hell, etc. you name it? I understand it is all side effects but it is something worth to mention, no?

 

There are a number of enlightenment levels. What you speak of, may be a very low level of enlightenment?

 

Again from Master Nan book, we (not only the body) all will be destroyed by fire, flood, and wind disasters unless we can enter the fourth Samadhi.

 

Thank you.

I too hope i am wrong.

 

I have not uttered one word about enlightenment. All i pointed out was one of many paths that can be used to shed old habits.

 

When all neuroses is let go off, what remains?

 

Levels are useful as a guide when one is climbing the mountain, they are like steps. However, some may choose to walk the pathless path. Those that do have no use for steps and levels. There are 'safe' paths but they take longer. Swifter ways are available but they can be hazardous, or even detrimental to the initiate. Best avoided unless there is proper guidance available.

 

Its delusions that are supernatural... our natural state is untainted and is free from all delusions.

 

_/\_

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

That could very well be Buddhist propaganda

 

Ya think?

 

Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[z00se]

People who say you cannot attain full enlightenment are talking rubbish. The only reason you've read in some places you can't is because it's not something you get, it's just a realisation that you already have it and you reach the point where you have unmasked it.

 

Attain: To arrive at, as by virtue of persistence or the passage of time.

 

So we can attain enlightenment by backtracking and bypassing all our learnt knowledge to arrive at the place we began.

 

There IS full englightenment which is exactely the same as full realisation. You can't say there is one without the other they are one and the same.

 

We are given an ego? by who? I don't buy the Creator model nor do I believe that just because things are as they are, there is necessity for that.

 

You're mistaken in that full enlightenment = no ego = can't survive or live or do anything conventional. Siddhas (highly awakened ones) tend to do just fine. Enlightenment does not mean you disappear and can't do anything, like a leaf in a stream. Enlightenment is empowerment.

 

 

mikaelz: It's interesting to discuss with you. We are given an ego by ourselves. The fact that we are living in a physical world and have a physical body that we can stress provides the vehicle for the ego.

 

I don't think Jesus "did just fine". They killed him because he was acting like a raving lunatic in society's eyes, and the leaders didn't accept that kind of behaviour. Like now if i started acting like that in china here it would be only a matter of days before i was locked up. So he couldn't live in the society (with an ability/skill of any unenlightened person). He was encompassed by god and acted of god's accord and it was different to the rules of society. If you're enlightened but you live within the rules of society then you are living a lie knowingly and are resisting the tao, not living at one with the tao, and there, begining to rebuild your ego. When you are fully enlightened and act in accordance with the truth then you ARE like a leaf in a stream. Everybody already is but the enlightened one realises this and doesn't resist it.

 

In my opinion it's benefitial to be enlightened, to the point where it adversely affects your health, which is your greatest asset. You should not surrender your health to the tao, and those parts of the ego useful for sustaing your health should remain. The path not mapped, the 'dangerous direct route' some people have mentioned is this overzealousness for enlightenment that causes people to neglect their health. (Fasting for long periods, meditating continuously without moving so the muscles and tendons waste away). Once they damage their health the results can be serious and the resulting illness or damage can be with them for life.

Edited January 29, 2010 by z00se