Enlightenment-a TTB definition.

[erdweir]

How about Enlightenment as having broken through all conditioning? To see past the small individual consciousness and apprehend the world as mind?

[forestofclarity]

Enlightenment is:

 

The sky is gray, dark, full of angry, menacing clouds. The wind picks up, and either suddenly or slowly, the clouds drift away. Now the sun is shining, clear and bright.

[Sunya]

I don't think Jesus "did just fine". They killed him because he was acting like a raving lunatic in society's eyes, and the leaders didn't accept that kind of behaviour. Like now if i started acting like that in china here it would be only a matter of days before i was locked up. So he couldn't live in the society (with an ability/skill of any unenlightened person). He was encompassed by god and acted of god's accord and it was different to the rules of society. If you're enlightened but you live within the rules of society then you are living a lie knowingly and are resisting the tao, not living at one with the tao, and there, begining to rebuild your ego. When you are fully enlightened and act in accordance with the truth then you ARE like a leaf in a stream. Everybody already is but the enlightened one realises this and doesn't resist it.

 

Hi, this is interesting to discuss with you too.

 

I don't agree with your portrayal of enlightenment and its effects on beings. It seems to me that you hold enlightenment as lunacy or going mad and that we should be afraid of it. The many Sages before us have tried to fix this sort of thinking by saying we are all already enlightened, the illusion of the ego is merely an illusion and has always been so; nothing truly changes upon enlightenment. Like the famous Zen saying: before enlightenment mountains were mountains, rivers were rivers... on the path to enlightenment (at a temporary stage of), mountains are no longer mountains, rivers no longer rivers.. after enlightenment, mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers. So the point of this is integration which is an important value that both Buddhism and Taoism share. There is always a danger of remaining stuck at oneness, or the Absolute level, and not integrating that with this relative level that is before us, the ordinary human perception of you and me being here, existing, talking. But this danger is only a temporary lack of wisdom. People that go insane and can't function are not enlightened; this betrays the whole meaning of enlightenment which is possessing wisdom. Wouldn't you say that a necessary aspect of wisdom is functioning in this relative existence?

 

About Jesus, well it's hard for us to judge his actions and his life. We have so little to go by and our judgement are always subjective. My opinion about what you said is that you are judging him by your subjective values. I think that upon enlightenment values change and these may differ from being to being. Some may choose to stick around and live a peaceful life, some may decide to just leave and explore the universe, some may teach and try to leave a big impact upon society because of seeing peoples' suffering and wanting to make a positive difference. I think Jesus was in the last category; just because he didn't hide from the Romans and live a recluse lifestyle doesn't mean he wasn't enlightened. He stood up to authority, he created new values, and he really made a positive impact (what happened later under his name was not his fault). Is enlightenment simply choosing the path of least resistance? Letting things be and going with the flow? Maybe, maybe not.

Edited January 29, 2010 by mikaelz

[Guest paul walter]

The fun thing about enlightenment is that the one who IS will tell you (If he/she is truthful) that there is actually no such thing as "enlightenment". Figure that out?

 

 

 

Hmmm... Perhaps another definition may be that it is 1)that which people fear the consequences of that they never 'go' for it?

2) have a lot of opinions about the matter that serve their present 'reality' (holographic thinking, or egoic thinking)

[thuscomeone]

Right now, I believe that is is unbound happiness. It is a realization of how to truly be happy. It is a realization that as long as we keep depending on external things in order to be happy, whatever they may be - knowledge, beliefs, people, objects - we are keeping our happiness bound and constricted, we are giving up the fate of our happiness to something other than ourselves. One thing that I've been thinking lately is the bounding of happiness to knowledge. This relates to Buddhism. Happiness in Buddhist terms, for me, has always meant the realization of emptiness.

 

Yet I think that relying on emptiness or anatta or whatever to make us happy is another way to chain our happiness. It is giving our power away again. I mean, what if emptiness were proven wrong tomorrow? Would our happiness go away? If it was completely dependent on seeing emptiness, then it would. As such it would not be true happiness or true enlightenment. As cliche as it sounds, I think that enlightenment is seeing we are the only ones who have ever had the power to bring ourselves true happiness. It is just seeing that real happiness can only come from within.

Edited January 29, 2010 by thuscomeone

[3bob]

Om

 

Khandogya Upanishad, VII Prapathaka, 23rd Khanda:

 

1. The Infinite (bhuman) is bliss. There is no bliss in anything

finite. Infinity only is bliss. This Infinity, however, we must desire

to understand.

 

Sir, I desire to understand it.

 

24.

1. Where one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands

nothing else, that is the Infinite. Where one sees something else,

hears something else, understands something else, that is the finite.

The Infinite is immortal, the finite is mortal.

 

Sir, in what does the Infinite rest? In its own greatness - or not

even in greatness.

 

2. In the world they call cows and horses, elephants and gold,

slaves, wives, fields and houses greatness. I do not mean this,

thus he spoke; for in that case one being (the possessor) rests in

something else, (but the Infinite cannot rest in something different

from itself)

 

25.

1. The Infinite indeed is below, above, behind, before, right and

left--it is indeed all this. Now follows the explanation of the

Infinite as the I: I am below, I am above, I am behind, before,

right and left--I am all this.

 

2. Next follows the explanation of the Infinite as the Self: Self

is below, above, behind, before, right and left - Self is all this.

He who sees, perceives, and understands this, loves the Self,

delights in the Self, revels in the Self, rejoices in the Self--he

becomes a Svarag, (an autocrat or self-ruler) he is lord and master

in all the worlds. But those who think differently from this, live in

perishable worlds, and have other beings for their rulers.

 

26.

1. To him who sees, perceives, and understands this, the spirit

(prana) springs from the Self, hope springs from the Self, memory

springs from the Self; so do ether, fire, water, appearance and

disappearance, food, power, understanding, reflection, consideration,

will, Mind, speech, names, sacred hymns, and sacrifices--aye, all this

springs from the Self.

 

2. There is this verse, "He who sees this, does not see death, nor

illness, nor pain; he who sees this, sees everything, and obtains

everything everywhere.

 

"He is one (before creation), he becomes three (fire, water, earth),

he becomes five, he becomes seven, he becomes nine; then again he is

called the eleventh, and hundred and ten and one thousand and twenty."

When the intellectual aliment has been purified, the whole nature

becomes purified. When the whole nature has been purified, the memory

becomes firm. And when the memory (of the Highest Self) remains firm,

then all the ties (which bind us to a belief in anything but the Self)

are loosened.

[soaring crane]

Waiting to see how many pages it takes to arrive at an answer...

[xabir2005]

deleted

Edited January 30, 2010 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

deleted

Edited January 30, 2010 by xabir2005

[z00se]

It seems to me that you hold enlightenment as lunacy or going mad and that we should be afraid of it.

 

I don't think enlightenment is something to be scared of since when we are FULLY enlightened all our fear will be gone, and increasingly so on our path to it. I think it could be viewed as lunacy by those unenlightened because those who are enlightened don't live by society's standards/ethics/codes and since it seems everyone here is convinced that enlightenment can't be concieved of by those who are not enlightened (and i would agree certainly for those who have not even begun on their spiritual path) the doings, or not-doings, of an enlightened individual would certainly appear strange to the average joe.

 

It's not uncommon for fully enlightened people to beg for food, request donations, and survive off the work of others which is not considered 'good' in society's eyes. Many of them don't stand on their own 2 feet so to say. These people are very much enlightened and are often supported by their followers, and they are functioning in this physical existance but not on their own... with the help of others (who incidently ARE themselves), but to the average joe it seems everyone is supporting this loony who only sits in silence, does nothing and lives off handouts. I know many people who have this bad impression of the catholic church.

 

So finally, i do agree that a necessary aspect of wisdom/enlightenment is functioning in this relative existence. But the method seems crazy to those unenlightened. The enlightened begger knows god is bringing him his food, he has faith, can see into the future, and 'knows' his meal is comming. I want to keep enough ego to care enough to keep MY body healthy and have a wife with whome i can have MY OWN offspring. My desired level of enlightenment can then give me insight and wisdom to help me acheive this in the best and easiest possible way. I believe the enlightened can empower the world in unknown ways and direct energy and mould the world through other beings or things but not his/her own (own as in seperate, although it is really their own because the world is theirs). At the moment i still want part of my ego and i can be one of the enlightened's minions. Later when my i have kids that have grown up and don't need me any more i can become passive.

 

.....Also if you ever see the shaman in any movie he's always a bit of a crazy looking bastard haha.

[Marblehead]

Right now, I believe that is is unbound happiness. It is a realization of how to truly be happy. It is a realization that as long as we keep depending on external things in order to be happy, whatever they may be - knowledge, beliefs, people, objects - we are keeping our happiness bound and constricted, we are giving up the fate of our happiness to something other than ourselves. One thing that I've been thinking lately is the bounding of happiness to knowledge. This relates to Buddhism. Happiness in Buddhist terms, for me, has always meant the realization of emptiness.

 

Yet I think that relying on emptiness or anatta or whatever to make us happy is another way to chain our happiness. It is giving our power away again. I mean, what if emptiness were proven wrong tomorrow? Would our happiness go away? If it was completely dependent on seeing emptiness, then it would. As such it would not be true happiness or true enlightenment. As cliche as it sounds, I think that enlightenment is seeing we are the only ones who have ever had the power to bring ourselves true happiness. It is just seeing that real happiness can only come from within.

 

Just wanted to say that I like that post very much.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Just wanted to say that I like that post very much.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I'll second that

[xabir2005]

Right now, I believe that is is unbound happiness. It is a realization of how to truly be happy. It is a realization that as long as we keep depending on external things in order to be happy, whatever they may be - knowledge, beliefs, people, objects - we are keeping our happiness bound and constricted, we are giving up the fate of our happiness to something other than ourselves. One thing that I've been thinking lately is the bounding of happiness to knowledge. This relates to Buddhism. Happiness in Buddhist terms, for me, has always meant the realization of emptiness.

 

Yet I think that relying on emptiness or anatta or whatever to make us happy is another way to chain our happiness. It is giving our power away again. I mean, what if emptiness were proven wrong tomorrow? Would our happiness go away? If it was completely dependent on seeing emptiness, then it would. As such it would not be true happiness or true enlightenment. As cliche as it sounds, I think that enlightenment is seeing we are the only ones who have ever had the power to bring ourselves true happiness. It is just seeing that real happiness can only come from within.

I deleted my previous posts, as it is not very relevant.

 

Anyway what you said is very true... when 'emptiness' becomes inherent as a concept to be attached too, suffering arises.

 

So the Buddha said:

 

"Bhikkkhus, this view, so clean and pure, if you covet, fondle, treasure and take pride in it do you know this Teaching comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up and not for the purpose of holding? No, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, this view of yours so clean and pure, do not covet, fondle, treasure and take pride in it. Do you know this Teaching comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up and not for the purpose of holding? Yes, venerable sir."

 

- Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

 

That said, we must understand that what the Buddha wants us to realize is that the view of duality and inherency is the root cause of suffering, and also how the insight of emptiness leads to liberation. And it is our duty to experiment this in our moment to moment of experience to see whether it is true, as you have practiced so far.

 

That is: if we do truly see that views of duality and inherency is the root cause of suffering, we understand how the insight of emptiness leads to liberation. BUT if we see disassociation and non-dependence as a way of liberation, we will not understand how groundlessness through the arising of insight of emptiness leads to self-liberation. Understanding letting go via disassociation stems from a dualistic view. Like for example, trying to be an unaffected Awareness, trying to disassociate with thoughts, etc, which actually means separating subject from object (hence dualistic). Once the insight of emptiness dissolves these dualistic and inherent views, emptiness automatically leads to self-liberation.

 

And enlightenment implies liberation and the purpose of emptiness is just that - liberation.

[3bob]

By Yutang Lin:

 

Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.

Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.

Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.

Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation.

[Marblehead]

By Yutang Lin:

 

Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.

Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.

Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.

Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation.

 

Very nice. Key words "no grasping".

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Basically, enlightenment is a carrot and ignorance, a stick alternatively waved in front of disciples' noses by non-taoist adepts to get them to feel inadequate; also used for self-aggrandation by the waving party (if I hold the carrot and the stick, it must mean I have access to the great big pile of carrots and sticks and you don't, na na na na na...)

[Lucky7Strikes]

I thought I won a million dollars the other day, then I saw how I had read the lottery ticket the wrong way. But I was ecstatic for a good 5 minutes. .

 

Anyways,

 

We make our own cage, then upon escaping, we feel "I am free."

 

And so the moment one says: "This is suffering" he is also saying "Not-this is not suffering." So suffering is because "this is suffering."

 

Not knowing this is true suffering, but knowing is "not suffering."

 

I don't know, is that liberation? From what?

 

.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

 

We make our own cage, then upon escaping, we feel "I am free."

 

.

 

This is so true. In most cases, I suggest, that it is we who make our own cages. Funny thing is is that in most cases the door isn't even locked - we can leave any time we wish. All we have to do is open the door.

 

But if we feel safe and secure in our cage chances are we will never try for the door.

 

Peace & Love!

[Reader]

This is so true. In most cases, I suggest, that it is we who make our own cages. Funny thing is is that in most cases the door isn't even locked - we can leave any time we wish. All we have to do is open the door.

 

But if we feel safe and secure in our cage chances are we will never try for the door.

 

Peace & Love!

 

That is good point. But in order to do that we need to unlearn almost everything we have acquired, and that is not an easy and quick task.

 

The founder of the Dragon Gate sect said that: Freedom is when you have no thought, Immortal Enlightenment is when you have nothing in your mind.

 

I was wondering: what is that in our mind?

[Marblehead]

I was wondering: what is that in our mind?

 

Perhaps fixed opinions, prejudices and preferences?

 

And you are right, I think. Becoming free requires a lot of unlearning and many people are not willing to let go of what they feel is supporting them.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

or perhaps an egg eaten from the inside out and what emerges is stronger than counting our chickens before they are ready to or have hatched.

[Marblehead]

... an egg eaten from the inside out ...

 

What an image!!!

 

Peace & Love!

[Smile]

I don't know... this must be it:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4gCU5uplB4A

[Trunk]

I don't know... this must be it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gCU5uplB4A

His aura is so bright!

His chakras are so tight!

 

He's so swee-eee-eet and Buuuuudhist, ahhhhhhh

[Marblehead]

All I got to say is that if that is enlightenment I think I'll pass.

 

Peace & Love!