limitless

[Nanashi]

Are there limits to the unlimited? Is there a limitless limit?

 

The concepts of limit and limitless are opposites, and inside the Tao, they are one and nothing. One could give rise to the other, but if looked at from afar, they become meaningless words of a single thought.

 

To transcend infinity and the finite; things are seen just as they are: no-thing and everything.

 

It is difficult to discuss such ideas coherently without sounding weird. The Tao can easily slip through people's grasps, but that becomes the point of it after some time. Then it is hard to go back to normal language and labels.

[Marblehead]

Are there limits to the unlimited? Is there a limitless limit?

 

The concepts of limit and limitless are opposites, and inside the Tao, they are one and nothing. One could give rise to the other, but if looked at from afar, they become meaningless words of a single thought.

 

To transcend infinity and the finite; things are seen just as they are: no-thing and everything.

 

It is difficult to discuss such ideas coherently without sounding weird. The Tao can easily slip through people's grasps, but that becomes the point of it after some time. Then it is hard to go back to normal language and labels.

 

Yes. That is the point I was trying to make. You did better than I did. Hehehe.

 

Any time we attempt to define anything we immediately place limits on it. You know, when I say I am a Philosophical Taoist I place limits on myself.

 

Indeed, our minds operate according to dualistic principles so we have the opposites.

 

Good point in your last paragraph. Yes, we can talk about these abstract ideas but when the talking is done we need to remember to get bact to reality.

 

Peace & Love!

[shaolin]

Thoughts are limited because you can only imagine or think of something you have already had previous knowledge of ie you know what a beach is , so you can imagine it. If you did not know what a beach was, you could never imagine it. Its like asking a blind person to imagine a colour that he has never seen.

 

Its like art. Facing a blank canvass and then producing a unique picture out of thousands that the mind can imagine or replicate. Our minds are born blank, like the canvass, but then they collect information, thoughts, ideas and sensations such as smells, tastes, feelings, sounds that we can place on the blank canvass.

 

 

"limit" is one of the following qualities. height, weight, width, beginning, end, being measurable or dependent on something.

 

"thing" is something that exists but I meant it in the context as something tangible that we can percieve with our senses in the post earlier.

[Nanashi]

Well, shaolin, maybe you answered your own question then?

 

What I brought up was just an example of how tricky it is to define absolutes when they are only relative to the mind.

[Marblehead]

Thoughts are limited because you can only imagine or think of something you have already had previous knowledge of ie you know what a beach is , so you can imagine it. If you did not know what a beach was, you could never imagine it. Its like asking a blind person to imagine a colour that he has never seen.

 

Its like art. Facing a blank canvass and then producing a unique picture out of thousands that the mind can imagine or replicate. Our minds are born blank, like the canvass, but then they collect information, thoughts, ideas and sensations such as smells, tastes, feelings, sounds that we can place on the blank canvass.

 

 

"limit" is one of the following qualities. height, weight, width, beginning, end, being measurable or dependent on something.

 

"thing" is something that exists but I meant it in the context as something tangible that we can percieve with our senses in the post earlier.

 

Ouch! I just imagined that a three legged really strange looking thing just bit me. It looks so wierd, really. I have never seen anything like it before in my life.

 

So I guess I have to disagree with you. I can imagine something I have never seen before. I can imagine that the planetoid Pluto is a really warm place with lots of beautiful naked women anxiously awaiting my arrival so that they can molest me.

 

To the blank slate concept. Interesting. I actually held to that concept until I read about Jung's 'collective unconscious' theory. Now I don't know what to believe. I also understand that a fetus actualy 'learns' while it is in the womb without having any direct experiences itself.

 

I will still suggest that the mind is unlimited. Chuang Tzu told a neat little story about that.

 

Peace & Love!

[shaolin]

What you have just imagined all depends on your previous information. Although its a ficticious story and unique and invented by your mind, it doesmeand that thoughts or the mind are without limits. You could not have had that imaginary thought unless you had previous informaton. You had to have previously known what the number three is , what legs are, what warmth is, what beauty is and what women are.

 

You had to have previously known what numbers are and the value of three, to understand what part of the body legs are and experienced warmth etc.

 

This is how the mind is limited, knowledge is limited and thoughts.

 

remenber they may not have a size , width , weight or be pangible, but they do have a begining and are dependent on previous information being percieved by the senses. This is how theyre limited.

 

Mind is limited in many ways too. There is a limit to how much it can store and remember, thats why we forget things, it depends on a physical body etc.

 

Anything that can grow or reduce in size or ability is limited , because of its very ability to increase and decrease.

But of all "things" that Ive thought about , mind or thoughts etc are the things that more powerful that most other things but still have limitations.

[shaolin]

Sorrry for the sloppy writing and mis types , just woke up! lol

[Iyoiyo]

Even if one doesn't think potential is unlimited, possibilities still are.

[Apech]

If we were to define "limitless" as something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable.

 

Does such a "thing" exist?

 

Strictly speaking the word exist means 'ex-ist' - 'out stand' or 'to stand out' and refers to objects which can be perceived as standing out from the background. In order to do this they are finited - that is they assume a specific location, form, colour(s) and so on which define them. They have limits which arise because of this specifity.

 

That which they stand out from is the continuum of energy/consciousness (or whatever you like to call it), this continuum is infinite and limitless. However it is not a thing and does not exist int he sense defined above - but it is real (or so I would suggest) and in ordinary terms could be said to exist as to say it doesn't suggests that you mean that there is no such thing.

[Marblehead]

 

But of all "things" that Ive thought about , mind or thoughts etc are the things that more powerful that most other things but still have limitations.

 

Darn!!! I've run out of arguements. You win!

 

You know, I have heard a number of times that the mind is without limit. I doubt that I rally accepted the concept but I wanted to test myself and I failed. Oh well.

 

I think you are right though. Any 'thing', which would include the mind, does have its limits.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Even if one doesn't think potential is unlimited, possibilities still are.

 

I'm still with you on this one.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

The Void.. no beginning, no end.. nothing to describe or define..

 

Be well..

Edited January 30, 2010 by TzuJanLi

[Tao99]

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tao99

[shaolin]

Very interesting apepch7. Thats a good way of describing the destinction between things, but Im still looking for something which has no limits.

 

Posibilities are limited, like potential in the same way. There are things that are impossible. Possibilities are likned to "things" and depend on them to exist. They are also limited in their abilities. ie , its possible for a "thing" to become, change, do etc. Without the "thing2 there is no possibility and to use our eariler example, its not possible for a chicken egg to hatch in to a tree etc.

 

Possibilities are dependent and limited like potential.

 

Tzu Jan Li, please explain what is "void " and how it is unlimmited.

 

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, especially marblehead.

[Marblehead]

Hi Shaolin,

 

I will still hold to the understanding that the 'potential' of Mystery is unlimited. Perhaps one day I will be able to express this understanding in a more efficient way.

 

Peace & Love!

[shaolin]

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Shaolin: From the human perspective, we point to the Void with concepts like Eternity and Infinity.. it is the vastness that is even beyond those concepts.. indescribable because even the term 'nothing' uses 'something' for its meaning, its contrasting principle.. the Void has no limits, neither Time nor Space.. it extends in All directions forever..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

Hi Shaolin: From the human perspective, we point to the Void with concepts like Eternity and Infinity.. it is the vastness that is even beyond those concepts.. indescribable because even the term 'nothing' uses 'something' for its meaning, its contrasting principle.. the Void has no limits, neither Time nor Space.. it extends in All directions forever..

 

Be well..

 

You are getting so close to the concept of 'Absolute Nothingness' that it's scarey. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Marblehead: The 'absolute nothingness' used to frighten me a bit.. i was introduced to a Tantric Priestess from Bhutan,and she assisted me with the 'Tibetan Death Meditation'.. THAT was scarey, but.. and she was right, it was the first time i understood my realtionship with the 'Void', and i deeply appreciate that gift.. in a brief instant, you 'die'.. you consciously shut-down your physical processes, sensory input ceases.. the 'structure' of the mind disolves, and you 'touch' infinity and eternity.. there is no way to 'speak' it, no way to tell someone what happened.. but, one of the understandings i now have, is that 'death' is the 'door' to the 'Void'.. no longer bound by the 'structure' of physical manifestation, there are no 'consequences' as we know them.. if you were to jump into an unexplored deep dark hole in the ground, you would fear the 'consequences', death is the release of that 'fear'.. the Void can be explored forever, and you will have never left its center, you will never know its extremities, 'infinity' has no extremity, no bounds.. you are always in the absolute 'center'..

 

My dad, may he enjoy his journey, asked me, when i was quite young and inquisitive.. Where is the 'end' of the Universe? i said, when you can go no further.. he asked, 'but, what's beyond that'.. "if you come to a brick wall, and the sign says, "END of Universe", what's on the other side of the wall? Still, today, i love to lay in grass at night, look into the sky and contemplate how it all just goes on forever, in all directions.. there cannot be an 'end'.. a 'change', maybe.. but, no end..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

Hi Marblehead: The 'absolute nothingness' used to frighten me a bit..

 

There was at one time an excellent essay "in the works" on the net that spoke to 'Absolute Nothingness' from a scientific perspective. The last time I went looking for it it was gone. (Probably got published.)

 

What pointed me in that direction was a discussion of 'Absolute Nothingness' from a spiritual perspective. I have not read the "Book of the Dead" but I have been pointed to it a number of times.

 

I doubt that 'the end of the universe' can ever be defined.

 

Funny thought just now. It is not by looking out that we see the limitlessness but rather by looking in.

 

No, I doubt that the 'end of the universe' could ever be defined because each time we approach the edge and look out we expand the limits. And this will happen endlessly.

 

Yes, I think that the Buddhist concept of 'nothingness' can be achieved but as long as we still have a body 'absolute nothingness' would be unachievable

 

Peace & Love!

Edited January 31, 2010 by Marblehead

[shaolin]

TzuJanLi, thanks for your explanation. I understand a bit more about what the void is.

Can it be percieved without death? If I cant percieve it, then its not part of my reality and doesnt exist to me. How do we know that it actually exists?

 

Marblehead, the universe is mad up of totally limited things, so if its made up of limited things it cant me limitless. Also it is expanding, which requires a limit. Without a limit, it would not need to or be able to expand. Also the universe is said to have had a beginning. Obviously, these points are not 100% because they are scientific theories, that I have not experienced nor do I have great knowledge of , so it could be one theory against another, but this is what they say at the moment.

 

But I'd like to hear a bit more about "absolute nothingness" and how it differs or relates to "the void".

[3bob]

[Marblehead]

Hi Bob,

 

Yes, that is an interesting thought. There was a beginning of this beginning but that beginning was just the end of something else which was nothing which was the end of something else, etc. Cycles and reversion. From beginning to end and from end to new beginning.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Hi Shaolin,

 

the universe is mad up of totally limited things, so if its made up of limited things it cant me limitless. Also it is expanding, which requires a limit. Without a limit, it would not need to or be able to expand. Also the universe is said to have had a beginning. Obviously, these points are not 100% because they are scientific theories, that I have not experienced nor do I have great knowledge of , so it could be one theory against another, but this is what they say at the moment

 

I have to disagree with parts of this. Yes, it is a given that the universe is expanding although not necessarily increasing in manifest mass, rather, space between masses is increasing.

 

However, if the outermost mass is moving away from the next outermost mass then it means that there is no limit to the possibility for expansion of the universe. This is consistent with the theory that this universe will die a cold death. That is, all masses will continue to expand away from all other masses such that at some point the energy from one mass will no longer be able to reach any other mass. A cold and dark death.

 

(But, I don't accept that because it is not consistent with the Taoist concepts of cycles and reversion.)

 

I suggest that to be able to expand there must be "no" limits. If there were limits the expansion would cease. Now, when the universe stops expanding (if it does) then, and only then, can we say that it has reached its limit.

 

Yes, I accept the Big Bang theory. The Big Bang (although it wasn't big nor was there a bang) was the beginning of 'this' universe. But there was something before the big bang else the big bang could not have occured. You can't get something from nothing.

 

However, I must here state that I hold that the theories of Dark Matter (Mystery, potential mass) and Dark Energy (Chi). Therefore it is my understanding that the mass of the universe has to potential of increasing as well. In fact, it is suggested that the manifest universe is only 4.6% of all the energy of the universe. 23% of this total is Dark Matter. Therefore the universe has the potential of being five time more massive than it currently is.

 

Regarding "Absolute Nothingness" and "Void", I must go back and re-read Tzujanli's post on the void.

 

I'll be back!

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Hi Bob,

 

 

 

Yes, I accept the Big Bang theory. The Big Bang (although it wasn't big nor was there a bang) was the beginning of 'this' universe. But there was something before the big bang else the big bang could not have occured. You can't get something from nothing.

 

 

 

Sound of big bang

 

sound files

 

scroll down

Edited January 31, 2010 by apepch7

[Marblehead]

Sound of big bang

 

sound files

 

scroll down

 

Hi Apepch7,

 

Neat.

 

However, hehehe, that is what I call trickery. What they did was to take the frequencies of what is thought to have been the energy escaping from the center point outward and convert those frequencies into audible frequencies. Kinda like listening to a radio station. The energy exists but if you do not have a radio capable of recieving that radio station's frequency and converting that energy into audible frequencies you will hear nothing.

 

There are some animals on this planet that generate sound waves that we humans cannot hear. So the people in the field build recievers and convert those frequencies into frequencies we can hear.

 

Peace & Love!