limitless

[Tao99]

Edited February 4, 2010 by Tao99

[Tao99]

Edited February 4, 2010 by Tao99

[OneSeeker]

very true 3bob, thats why I defined limitless as anything with a height, width, weight, beginning, end or is measurable or dependent on something.

 

From this point we can move forward by applying these attributes to see if such a thing exists. I know it may seem "dry" and restrictive, but without that we will end up in poetry, when we really want to find if such a thing exists.

 

When we clear the fog and understand what these words we use really mean, we can find that they are words describing something that is unreal or non existant.

 

We want to find an actual thing that does not have even a single limiting attribute. With such a topic its very easy to get caught up on words , I think its unavoidable.

 

I contributed two cents' worth to this discussion back near the beginning of it by suggesting that defining something is automatically limiting it. Here's a couple more pennies: I still think that means your approach to this question is self-contradictory and, thus, doomed to failure.

 

"Applying ... attributes" is applying limits: It's saying "This thing is like this, not like that." Calling something "an actual thing" means "this thing with the attribute of actuality, not that thing which is not actual." Even saying "unlimited" means "something to which the attribute of limitation does not apply," which of course is a limitation. It is, indeed, "unavoidable" because the truly "unlimited" is something beyond words or the restrictive mental pigeonholes they represent.

 

That's why I keep scattering quotation marks around, because I'm hoping you won't take the words as exact representations of the realities we're trying to talk about. And I think that's why people who have experienced the Tao or the transcendent One or whatever use words to point, not to define: They use names, images, analogies, symbols, metaphors and, yes, poetry. They use them to point us toward "something greater," not to capture the "beyond being" and cage it within the grasp of the limited rational mind. That would be like trying to catch a cloud with a mousetrap.

 

The hope is that the "higher," non-dualistic mind will recognize the truth toward which these pointers point, even if the rational mind doesn't, because the "limitless" is the higher mind's home. But to really get there and "see" for oneself whether the transcendent "exists," it's essential to get the rationalizing mind to sit down and shut up, at least for a while.

[shaolin]

OneSeeker, I understand you and agree to some extent, but if we dont define things then we are not dealing with reality as we can only define what is limited. Obviously, defining the unlimited, what we are looking for is not possible, so it lookis like a contradiction. It is not a contradiction though, because we can reach the undefinable, unlimited thing, if it exists , by its attributes or power or abilities, which would be limitless. Like smoke being an indicator of fire for example. What I mean, is an empty word about something for which there is no compelling evidence of its existance is not enough. There must be total proof of the existance of such a thing, that is clear and with out doubt. Even though the actual limitless thing may be incomprehedable due to its nature of being unlimited.

 

Being unlimited, means not being limited, but this is not a limitation. Its absolute, one or the other.

 

Space is an area or distance between two objects and is limited for that very reason.

It has a beginning and that is a limitation.

[shaolin]

To say the void is limitless is fine, I can say the vastness is limitless too, its just a word until there is proof of its actual existance in reality.

 

What proof is there that it actually exists.

 

Anything that exists only in the mind is not limitless nor is it always real.

 

It must exist outside of the mind and not contained by it or dependant on it to be limitless.

 

I understand you OneSeeker, but it must be understood by the rational mind, or how else can it be understood ? Without rationality how can it be understood?

[OneSeeker]

Shaolin, I have a feeling that you're trying to give birth to something and you're having a difficult labor. I want to help, but all I can do is apply what I know from my own experience and learning. So it's a little like telling you, "Breathe in, breathe out," like in a LaMaze class. Because I only know what I've given birth to, and it may not be anything like what's trying to be born in you.

 

Whatever it is, it's you and your existence that matters. If you're in the birthing room, don't let the doctors tell you what it all is. They may know all the correct procedures, but you're the one whose life is about to create new life, and no one but you can do that.

[awake]

i also remember something very powerful i was taught.

 

here is your chance to experience limitless.

 

close your eyes in the night time, or in a room that is dark, or simply facing away from light.

 

try and find the limits.

 

edit: really try, for as long as it takes you to find them, it is a process

Edited February 2, 2010 by awake

[3bob]

i also remember something very powerful i was taught.

 

here is your chance to experience limitless.

 

close your eyes in the night time, or in a room that is dark, or simply facing away from light.

 

try and find the limits.

 

edit: really try, for as long as it takes you to find them, it is a process

 

The limits of an Ocean of light can not be found but its unlimited source can.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

it must be understood by the rational mind, or how else can it be understood ? Without rationality how can it be understood?

The rational mind has no problem understanding that the 'vastness' of space or the Void is 'limitless', try describing what the 'limits' are.. it's a 'natural knowing'. Or, describe what you believe to be 'limits', and i will ask, "What's on the other side"?

Space is an area or distance between two objects and is limited for that very reason.

It has a beginning and that is a limitation.

You have set artificial limits to 'space'.. Space is just that, 'space' where there are no 'things', it is between objects, and beyond all objects.. it is limitless..

 

Be well..

[shaolin]

Thanks guys. OneSeeker, your last post made me smile.

 

TzuJanLi, I would describe limits as a height, weight, witdh, beginning, end or being measurable or dependant.

 

If you "ask whats on the other side" then that is evidence of not knowing at all. Having no idea. something may be there or may not be there, but until there is evidence of something being there, then there is nothing there.

 

Also there is no real proof of actual existance of the void. I see it as a theory and not a reality. I may be wrong, but I havent found enough proof to see it as being really there.

 

Ive been thinking alot about what we've been exploring and I've got another question that I will open as a new topic. It is "is anything able to create its self of anything else" I'll explain my meaning of the word "creation" too. All replies should be on the new topic so we dont lead from one topic in to another on the same post. This topic of limitless should remain on this thread.

[Apech]

 

Also there is no real proof of actual existance of the void. I see it as a theory and not a reality. I may be wrong, but I havent found enough proof to see it as being really there.

 

 

 

You can either reach void through realization or through logic (by analyzing the nature of things) either way void as a theory is not much use. What kind of proof are you looking for?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Also there is no real proof of actual existance of the void. I see it as a theory and not a reality. I may be wrong, but I havent found enough proof to see it as being really there.

This thinking process reminds me of 'the fish searching for water'.. It's everywhere, and beyond.. no limits. The Void is the vast emptiness which cradles this and all other Universes.. I am one who 'tests' my understandings of things, and until those understandings fail the scrutiny of testing they suffice as the 'way' things are.. i am very open to the scrutiny of others, too.. i do not favor believing in unsupportable theories. So, if you have a well-reasoned rebuttal to my understanding of the Void, i am interested..

 

Be well..

[3bob]

The cavity of the mysterious gate lies within. It is without structure and form and is limitless. Try to find it, and it will seem as if beyond ten thousand mountains. Try to locate it in the heart, liver, spleen, kidneys, and you will find nothing. Words cannot describe this cavity. If you try to grasp it, it is no where to be found. --- Wu H'suan P'ien

 

(a saying copied from Sean's header)

[shaolin]

Please view the "can anything create ist self" thread.

 

Everything is limited. All matter is limited thats a scientific face, simple by the structure of atoms , elements and the number of electrons and protons to each particle of matter that produce different elements.

 

Everything that emenates from matter or relies on it is aslo therefore limited.

 

The other thread has an observation that may be interesting.

[Phoenix]

If we were to define "limitless" as something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable.

 

Does such a "thing" exist?

Yes.

 

But to discover it, you need to stop thinking. You cannot grasp it with the senses or with conceptual mind. Concepts are limits.

 

What you seek isn't located anywhere or anywhen. Space and time do not apply, just as other concepts of color, shape, form, etc. do not apply.

 

What you seek you can discover by stopping conceptual thought, and unfortunately by no other method. If you really want to find it, meditate.

 

In the meantime, try reading the Heart Sutra. It's very helpful for precisely this topic.

[Birch]

Maybe cats know the void better than people? And how do we know what fish believe about water? Did someone talk with the fish and ask them?

 

As long as we are humans looking at this thing, or looking for it or relying on human-built instruments to find it we may likely run into our inherent limitations as humans as well as relying far too much on our own (limited?) senses. The good news is the void is also exactly what is there before us. We do the naming and the delimiting. How do I know this? Just look at something and then decide it's something else. Switch it back afterwards to "see" the difference.

 

This includes our capacity to hear ourselves verbalize things about things. A trap I fall into very often is that hearing myself say it (or think it in words, writing is worse!) leads me to believe it's the case.

 

It's sometimes harder for me to believe what someone else says (sometimes not ) so I may look for my own reasons again to believe them (i.e. "this is a scientist", "this is a guru", "this is a teacher," "this is my parent," and so on ad nauseum.)

 

There is a painting by Magritte called "La Trahison des images". It depicts an old school pipe and underneath it says "This is not a pipe" - actually it doesn't even say that because the original is in French, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe". You may know it already.

 

But if not, until you go google the title, you may take me upon my word that this painting exists. And even when you find it online, it's still not the painting, it's a picture of the painting (and far less "une pipe";-))

 

Namaste,

 

Kate

[Phoenix]

 

But if not, until you go google the title, you may take me upon my word that this painting exists. And even when you find it online, it's still not the painting, it's a picture of the painting (and far less "une pipe";-))

 

Nicely said. We all need to do our own investigating, which basically means digging through layer after layer of our garbage heap of conceptuality until we have cleared away all of it and done the final dusting. Then we won't have to take anybody else's word for it anymore.