limitless

[shaolin]

If we were to define "limitless" as something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable.

 

Does such a "thing" exist?

[Marblehead]

If we were to define "limitless" as something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable.

 

Does such a "thing" exist?

 

The first word that came to mind is "Tao".

 

The second is "potential".

 

Peace & Love!

[OneSeeker]

Here I go indulging my addiction to intellectualism, apologies in advance:

 

In Greek philosophy, the first "moment" of manifestation is precisely the meeting of Unlimited and Limit. Plato's unwritten doctrine expressed it as the One (beyond limit or unlimitedness) producing the Indefinite Dyad (i.e., Unlimited and Limit). Plotinus later described the Dyad as Being and Essence, the point being that for something to Be, it must not only Be, it must be Something. The similarity to the Tao giving rise to Yin and Yang seems self-evident to me, but I could be overreaching.

 

On another level, that which has no limit or form is the chaos of pure matter, the lowest or farthest extension of the creative impulse. It has no power to produce or create but can only receive Form from the greater powers.

[shaolin]

potential does have limits, and a beginning and end. Also facing a blank canvass and producing a picture or any other type of art such as literature or music is dependent on imagination, which is dependent on a human mind and its previous experiences or information. Which are all limited.

 

I really want to get to the bottom of this to find something truly limitless as I have been thinking about this for a long time.

 

Something that:

 

Has no height, weight, width, shape, beginning, end, is not measurable and doesnt depend on anything for its own existance.

 

Sorry if I ask too many questions, but in a topic that uses words that can be so loaded and misunderstood I may need to. This forum has many great minds and although we often disagree, we try to be truthful and compassionate.

[OneSeeker]

If we were to define "limitless" as something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable.

 

potential does have limits, and a beginning and end. Also facing a blank canvass and producing a picture or any other type of art such as literature or music is dependent on imagination, which is dependent on a human mind and its previous experiences or information. Which are all limited.

 

I really want to get to the bottom of this to find something truly limitless as I have been thinking about this for a long time.

 

Something that:

 

Has no height, weight, width, shape, beginning, end, is not measurable and doesnt depend on anything for its own existance.

 

Sorry if I ask too many questions, but in a topic that uses words that can be so loaded and misunderstood I may need to. This forum has many great minds and although we often disagree, we try to be truthful and compassionate.

 

The more questions, the better, in my opinion. Maybe the reason you're in perplexity about this is that "definition" means "limit." So you're limiting the limitless by defining it.

 

Marblehead's comment that "The first word that came to mind is 'Tao'" seems very true. I'd add "the One" from my Philosophy background. In either case, it's just giving a name to something ultimately indefinable and indescribable, which can be known only by the non-dualistic, non-verbal mind.

 

So maybe the solution is to treat your question as a koan, not to receive a specific answer but to receive a flash of direct insight.

[shaolin]

Here I go indulging my addiction to intellectualism, apologies in advance:

 

In Greek philosophy, the first "moment" of manifestation is precisely the meeting of Unlimited and Limit. Plato's unwritten doctrine expressed it as the One (beyond limit or unlimitedness) producing the Indefinite Dyad (i.e., Unlimited and Limit). Plotinus later described the Dyad as Being and Essence, the point being that for something to Be, it must not only Be, it must be Something. The similarity to the Tao giving rise to Yin and Yang seems self-evident to me, but I could be overreaching.

 

On another level, that which has no limit or form is the chaos of pure matter, the lowest or farthest extension of the creative impulse. It has no power to produce or create but can only receive Form from the greater powers.

 

I need to apologise too! Im dont understand some things so please be patient.

 

What does first "moment" mean?

What is meant by "manifestation"?

What was unlimited that "met" with limited and how?

 

I can understand the One as being the unlimited "thing"

 

Also if something has no power to produce or create, wouldnt it be seen as limited due to these limitations and inabilities?

The indifinite dyad "unlimited and limited" what exactly is unlimited and what is reffered to by limited?

 

Finally , what are the "Greater powers" that give Form and how are they greater?

 

Thanks and apologies in advance. Im not being arguementative and wouldnt like to come across as such.

[soaring crane]

So maybe the solution is to treat your question as a koan, not to receive a specific answer but to receive a flash of direct insight.

 

 

I like that answer

 

 

Q: What is something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable?

 

A: Quack.

 

 

[shaolin]

Its true, to define anything is to limit it, but to understand what limited is I need to define what it means. Words mean different things to different people, so I defined it from my understanding to ask an open question.

 

Its possible that insight can help, but insight should be explainable. Even one word or line of deep meaning can be explained in great length and detail.

 

Im just trying to see if anything with such qualities actually exists.

Its a rational question seeking a rational answer that can be tested, scrutanised and proven.

 

ie: this is it, it exists and these are its qualities. So its more rational and factual than philosophical. Unless the philosophy points to "it".

[OneSeeker]

What does first "moment" mean?

What is meant by "manifestation"?

What was unlimited that "met" with limited and how?

 

I can understand the One as being the unlimited "thing"

 

Sorry, I guess I'm prone to using jargon. But we're trying to talk about things that are easier to name than to explain or describe.

 

Let's say that the Tao or the One is totally beyond limitation, description, definition, qualification. Even to say "It is" and that "It is some thing" is falling short. The first "moment" is the emergence of the first existence (from virtual or potential to actual, where it first becomes (potentially) knowable, hence "manifest"); we call it a "moment" because it doesn't occur in time but is always occurring, in the sense that existence always is, and is always being created by what is beyond existence.

 

The Unlimited is, if you'll excuse the expression, unlimitedness as such, and the Limited is limitedness as such. These are also referred to as the Unbounded and Boundary. There is no unlimited thing becoming a limited thing. I'm sorry if this sounds unclear, but again, I'm trying to understand things that are too simple to put into word-containers.

 

There is no "met," there is eternal "meeting" in the Now, giving birth to everything else.

 

Also if something has no power to produce or create, wouldnt it be seen as limited due to these limitations and inabilities?

The indifinite dyad "unlimited and limited" what exactly is unlimited and what is reffered to by limited?

 

Finally , what are the "Greater powers" that give Form and how are they greater?

 

Thanks and apologies in advance. Im not being arguementative and wouldnt like to come across as such.

 

Matter is, indeed, the most limited thing of all, at least according to Plotinus, who regards it as the nearest possible thing to Nonbeing and the farthest from True Being. It's unlimited only in the sense that it has no self-definition and must be formed by something which has Form in itself and the power to impart it. The Unlimited or Unbounded is such by being full of the potential and the power to be Form and Power and Creativity when "married" to Limit.

 

Finally, trying not to be too technical, but the "greater powers" are those existences that are prior in being (not prior in time, because time doesn't apply) and so are nearer (in being, because space doesn't apply) to the source of being. By being more full of Being (I know, this is getting pretty unintelligible), they have more Being to give, so to speak.

 

No apologies necessary, by the way. I don't see anything argumentative, and you're giving my ego a chance to bask in the reflected glory of other people's great insights.

[3bob]

There is no disconnect between what seems or appears limited and the unlimited.

Although from the limited perspective (so to speak) such can never see the unlimited, but from the unlimited perspective (so to speak and which may sound contradictory) there is no limited.

[Marblehead]

potential does have limits,

 

I disagree. As long as potential remains potential there is no limit to what it can become. If not acted on, potential will be eternal, it will always be potential beyond the end of time. But yes, once potential is acted upon there will be limits to what it manifested into.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Let's say that the Tao or the One is totally beyond limitation, description, definition, qualification. Even to say "It is" and that "It is some thing" is falling short. The first "moment" is the emergence of the first existence (from virtual or potential to actual, where it first becomes (potentially) knowable, hence "manifest"); we call it a "moment" because it doesn't occur in time but is always occurring, in the sense that existence always is, and is always being created by what is beyond existence.

 

Chuang Tzu spoke to this. It is not possible to say Tao is such and such. Tao is indefinable. Tao is everytheng but itself is no-thing (because it is everything). We can only speak to it characterists and of those characterists we can speak to only that aspect of Tao that is manifest and observeable. All else is only conjecture.

 

But the 'moment', although it does not exist in time it does exist in space. Therefore even the 'moment' has limitations, that is, it is a fixed point of time in space.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

There is no disconnect between what seems or appears limited and the unlimited.

Although from the limited perspective (so to speak) such can never see the unlimited, but from the unlimited perspective (so to speak and which may sound contradictory) there is no limited.

 

I think I like what you said but I'm not sure yet. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[shaolin]

thank you all very much, especially OneSeeker for your explanation.

Potential is not just limited by how it is acted upon, but potential is specific to a particular limited thing.

 

Like a chicken egg has the potential to become a chicken, but it does not have the potential to become a human being once hatched.

 

We cant seperate potential from the actual thing that possesses it. It is the ability of something to do something or change its self or something else in the future.

 

Words can be very deceptive, this is the limitation of language.

[gendao]

If we were to define "limitless" as something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable.

 

Does such a "thing" exist?

無極 wuji

[OneSeeker]

thank you all very much, especially OneSeeker for your explanation.

Potential is not just limited by how it is acted upon, but potential is specific to a particular limited thing.

 

Like a chicken egg has the potential to become a chicken, but it does not have the potential to become a human being once hatched.

 

We cant seperate potential from the actual thing that possesses it. It is the ability of something to do something or change its self or something else in the future.

 

Words can be very deceptive, this is the limitation of language.

 

Well thanks, but from my end, the more I try to explain things, the less I seem to believe I understand them.

 

I don't want to get picky, but I think in a discussion of Taoism it's important to remember that if we believe in the Immortal Way, we're talking about something which truly is unlimited, in that there is no attribution or condition or qualification that can accurately be ascribed to it. In other words, it isn't "an actual thing that possesses" anything. So it has the potential of creating anything and everything, or perhaps better, it is the potential of anything and everything.

 

As for words, yes, they can be deceptive, but even when they're perfectly true -- that is, perfectly matched to the reality they try to describe -- they're only true and useful up to a point. There are some kinds of reality that just can't be verbalized, and which the verbalizing/rationalizing part of the mind can't grasp, though it will keep trying. This is why I signed on to Tao Bums, to work on quieting that "spinning mind" and awakening "shining mind." Doesn't look like I've made much progress today.

[3bob]

I think I like what you said but I'm not sure yet. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Same here, hehehe

[Tao99]

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tao99

[3bob]

"Work diligently day and night, never giving up for a moment; but only extinguish the stirring mind, do not extinguish the shining mind. Disappear into the empty mind; do not disappear into the possessing mind. Do not dwell on anything, and the [shining] mind will be stable."

 

Treatise on Sitting Forgetting Sima Chengzhen (found in Taoist Meditation by Cleary)

 

(*translated books of masters can be so much more powerful then anything you find on the internet. *)

 

Ah, a very lovely post and quote!

[OneSeeker]

"Work diligently day and night, never giving up for a moment; but only extinguish the stirring mind, do not extinguish the shining mind. Disappear into the empty mind; do not disappear into the possessing mind. Do not dwell on anything, and the [shining] mind will be stable."

 

Treatise on Sitting Forgetting Sima Chengzhen (found in Taoist Meditation by Cleary)

 

That's the quote I had in mind, thanks for remembering it. (I'm posting today from the office, not home, shhhh!) Stirring mind, not spinning mind; guess that tells you how my mind is.

[shaolin]

Anything which is unlimited is very difficult to describe or even comprehend as you have said. I love the depth of what we are discussing. I have to re-read and digest then re-read again.

I hope we come to a firm conclusion.

[Marblehead]

thank you all very much, especially OneSeeker for your explanation.

Potential is not just limited by how it is acted upon, but potential is specific to a particular limited thing.

 

Like a chicken egg has the potential to become a chicken, but it does not have the potential to become a human being once hatched.

 

We cant seperate potential from the actual thing that possesses it. It is the ability of something to do something or change its self or something else in the future.

 

Words can be very deceptive, this is the limitation of language.

 

But consider in your above example you put potential in a chicken egg. Potential is now manifested. Therefore there are limits.

 

Consider your thoughts,for an alternate example. Before you think any thought there is no limit to what thought you might have in the next moment.

 

Things have potential, yes, but non-things have full potential of becoming absolutely anything.

 

Now, I often speak to the subject that we should know our capabilities and capacities. This refers to knowing our potential. But we are already a thing. Therefore we have limited potential.

 

My thoughts though, have no limit. I can think that I am on the beach in Italy somewhere. Or I can fly to Pluto.

 

Tao is not a thing therefore it is beyond limits. Mystery is not yet manifested therefore there is no limit to its potential. The potential of no-thing is unlimited.

 

Peace & Love!

[forestofclarity]

How do you define "limit" and "thing"?

 

If we were to define "limitless" as something without a limit and is without a height, weight, width, beginning, end, or is measurable.

 

Does such a "thing" exist?

[forestofclarity]

This is why I signed on to Tao Bums, to work on quieting that "spinning mind" and awakening "shining mind." Doesn't look like I've made much progress today.

 

Taobums always makes me more spinning than shining--- but that's one reason I come.

[Marblehead]

Taobums always makes me more spinning than shining--- but that's one reason I come.

 

Hehehe. I try to help whenever I can.

 

Peace & Love!