Ch'an/Zen and the Tao

[lifeforce]

Over the last few days I've been skimming over some verses/poems and quotes by the ancient Ch'an and Zen masters. Hui Neng, Huang Po, Tozan, Bankei Hakuin

To be quite honest some of these writings have the hallmark of philosophical Taoism (Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu) Even mentioning Tao, the Way etc etc.

Ch'an and Zen seems more like Taoism than the Indian Buddhism from where it supposed to have originated.

I think I read somewhere that in some Ch'an and Zen schools, the TTC is part of the curriculum.

Forgive my naivety in these matters as it's something I've only recently been pondering.

Any thoughts ?

[Tao99]

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tao99

[hajimesaito]

Its obvious that since the last two millennia of co-existences there must have been at least some, if not more, exchanges between the two religions. So the interchangeability of the terms like Tao is not surprising. Both religions overlap a lot and this made it more simpler for the ideas to blend together.

 

Buddhism is a religion which, where ever it went, adapted to the local culture of that region. Tibetan Buddhism nowadays has its own existence after it blended with the native Bon religion. When it was first introduced to Tibet by Indian Buddhists, it must have been slightly different than what it is today. The concept of Lamas is peculiar to Tibetans and similar cultures.

 

In Japan, Buddhism added to the native Shintoism too. Same happened in China where the religion of Taoists was not much different from many ideas of the Buddhists themselves.

[erdweir]

During the Quanzhen revival of taosim in the middle ages of china, the northern branch of quanzhen or "complete reality" taoism absorbed allot of influences and people from Ch'an, which was then in decline. Actually, The complete reality reformation of Taoism was an explicitly non sectarian movement, which incorporated the teachings of buddha and confucius. So yeah, there is allot of common ground, especially between the northern quanzhen sect and the old taoist school.

 

with the southern school there is less overlap, because the southern quanzhen sect retains allot of "physiological" practices and emphasizes energetics in the beginning, not stillness meditation like the northern school. but it not even that simple. the founder of the southern sect warned against deviant practices in his work "understanding reality", and this work is studied by the northern school as well. some parts of understanding reality seem quite compatible with zen.

 

But picture a Mantak Chia or somesuch personage sharing much with Zen? Zen and most of the northern school, as well much of the southern school would not be in agreement. This kind of physiological alchemy is often placed on a lower level of practices in the classic hierarchies written by the founders of the quanzhen sect, whereas the highest levels of practice described by seem very much like zen.

[Tao99]

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tao99

[forestofclarity]

The intersection between Chan and Tao is one of my great interests. I think it is impossible to understand Chan without understanding Tao, and an understanding of Chan refines one's understanding of the Tao. Taoism can have a harmonizing and grounding effect on Buddhist practice, and Buddhist practice can keep one's Taoism from becoming dull and lifeless.

[forestofclarity]

During the Quanzhen revival of taosim in the middle ages of china, the northern branch of quanzhen or "complete reality" taoism absorbed allot of influences and people from Ch'an, which was then in decline. Actually, The complete reality reformation of Taoism was an explicitly non sectarian movement, which incorporated the teachings of buddha and confucius. So yeah, there is allot of common ground, especially between the northern quanzhen sect and the old taoist school.

 

This is much of what I have found, too.

 

Gurdjieff described religion as containing three levels: an external level for the public, manifesting in rites and rituals, temples, ceremonies, moral rules, and so on. There is a mesoteric level, for Taoism, this makes me think of yogic energy work. Then there is the esoteric, or true core. At the exoteric level, there are many differences, just like at the level of the human body. At the core, the heart or true essence, religions, like people, are identical.

[gendao]

I could interpret the first line of the Dao De Jing (道可道, 非常道) as:

"The concept of the way, is not the actual way."

 

IOW, the concept of Dao...is not the real Dao. Concepts are but fingers pointing to the moon.

No thoughts or concepts are real, but just perceptions or representations like drawings or photos.

And no matter how accurate a photo is, it is still not the real thing.

(If you don't believe me, try having sex with a photo of Megan Fox.)

That's (one reason) why we empty our minds in meditation.

Because the whole purpose of meditation is to delve into the true nature of reality.

And since thoughts are NOT REAL, they should not be dwelled upon.

You must look past all "illusions" and seek direct experience/being.

Or...the very essence of Ch'an/Zen...

Which also happens to be the opening line of the Dao De Jing.

[dionis]

At the core, the heart or true essence, religions, like people, are identical.

 

Comparing Sakyamuni to Lao-Tzu is akin to a comparison between authors, yet in a higher respect. If J. D. Salinger was John Knowles, for instance, a reader might like one, yet not the other. So to communicate his/her ideas, he could have repeated a story over again with a different name. Following this metaphor, a voice, loud or soft, falling on deaf ears will not be heard. So whether one may enjoy studying or masturbation, to borrow from another topic, to communicate a virtue such as wisdom to a person it is usually best suited to do so when he/she/it is listening. Whomever lies at the seat of religion may leave little room to err, considering the weight they bear. Perhaps, he or she may claim to be many or perhaps he is just one.

[Phoenix]

Problem is - there is a Buddhist end and a Taoist end. The emptiness for the Taoist is the "empty luminous mind" of true, essential, diamond-like, eternal nature.

What you are describing is identical to emptiness in Buddhism. Even the terms you're using are also used in Buddhist texts and teachings.

[Sunya]

What you are describing is identical to emptiness in Buddhism. Even the terms you're using are also used in Buddhist texts and teachings.

 

Nope.

[lifeforce]

The intersection between Chan and Tao is one of my great interests. I think it is impossible to understand Chan without understanding Tao, and an understanding of Chan refines one's understanding of the Tao. Taoism can have a harmonizing and grounding effect on Buddhist practice, and Buddhist practice can keep one's Taoism from becoming dull and lifeless.

 

Very well put. Thanks.

Here are some more thoughts on this

Edited January 31, 2010 by lifeforce

[erdweir]

If physiological alchemy is built on the famous following:

(1) Refining Essence into Breath (lianjing huaqi)

(2) Refining Breath into Spirit (lianqi huashen)

(3) Refining Spirit and reverting to Emptiness (lianshen huanxu)

 

Then I would disagree with quanzhen founders in that this practice does lead to the "end of the road", and is not a lower road, but the road itself. Problem is - there is a Buddhist end and a Taoist end. The emptiness for the Taoist is the "empty luminous mind" of true, essential, diamond-like, eternal nature.

 

Quanzhen describes these transformations.. actually it did much to clarify them. read the classics, Understanding Reality, the Inner Teachings of Taoism, etc. it's all there. These are amongst the pre-eminent classic sources for internal alchemy.

 

What I mean by physiological alchemy is taking the mysterious pass to be the pineal gland or something like that. Mantak Chia does allot of this. He mostly conflates the five elements with the internal organs, etc. Allot of people in China had gotten very confused about the truth of alchemy by the middle ages, the Quanzhen movement tried to correct allot of aberrant practices, everything from drinking menstrual blood to mistaking the gold elixir for mineral gold.

 

A good breakdown of the levels of true, false, and adjunct practices according to the Northern Quanzhen school can be found in the book of balance and harmony, translated by Thomas Cleary. He has translated some Zen work as well.

 

To get back to the topic of this thread, I think a comparison of Taoism and Ch'an practices should start with Non-Doing. comments?

[erdweir]

This is much of what I have found, too.

 

Gurdjieff described religion as containing three levels: an external level for the public, manifesting in rites and rituals, temples, ceremonies, moral rules, and so on. There is a mesoteric level, for Taoism, this makes me think of yogic energy work. Then there is the esoteric, or true core. At the exoteric level, there are many differences, just like at the level of the human body. At the core, the heart or true essence, religions, like people, are identical.

 

Yes, this is very similar to what i was saying.

 

The Quanzhen masters actually describe these three levels of practice in much the same way. the lower levels are public rituals, the middle levels are energetic practices and so on, the higher levels are all pure transcendence. check the writings of Ancestor Lu, Chang Po-tuan , etc..

 

It is also sometimes said that all methods are just conveniences...

[Tao99]

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tao99

[Phoenix]

Nope.

Please do elaborate.

[dionis]

Phoenix makes an interesting point here, yet some important nuances need be realized. Taoist practice, qigong, and tai chi all seek to balance one's organs internally. Buddhist practice, chanting, and visualization techniques seek to balance one's world within, then without.

 

Buddhist's go by thought, alone. Yet Taoists use movement and meditation to achieve the same goal.

 

The Buddhist way is to think your way out of affliction. Taoists have come upon the realization that there are more practical ways to improve one's life essence.

 

Yet there other sects or religions that Buddhism has spread over, for example Shintoism, which is also concerned with spiritual purity.

[forestofclarity]

I think this is an oversimplification, of both Taoism and Buddhism.

 

First, traditionally in the Pali Canon, one is taught to meditate in the four positions of sitting, standing, lying down, and moving about. Moving meditation has been a part of Buddhism from the beginning. Many Buddhists practice qi gong and tai chi.

 

Second, what you call Taoist practice seems to be mainly "Taoist health practices." The Tso-Wang Lun (Treatise on Abiding in Forgetfulness), for instance, doesn't talk about any of this. The Taoist criticism of Buddhism is usually that Buddhism focuses on Xing, while Taoists start on Ming and then cultivate Xing. It doesn't say forget the Xing!

 

Third, to say the Buddhist way has little or nothing to do with thinking your way out of anything. It is about realizing truth, not thinking about it.

 

Phoenix makes an interesting point here, yet some important nuances need be realized. Taoist practice, qigong, and tai chi all seek to balance one's organs internally. Buddhist practice, chanting, and visualization techniques seek to balance one's world within, then without.

 

Buddhist's go by thought, alone. Yet Taoists use movement and meditation to achieve the same goal.

 

The Buddhist way is to think your way out of affliction. Taoists have come upon the realization that there are more practical ways to improve one's life essence.

 

Yet there other sects or religions that Buddhism has spread over, for example Shintoism, which is also concerned with spiritual purity.

[Phoenix]

What I was commenting upon originally was the apparent similarity of Buddhist and Taoist ends, not methods. I'd still be interested in hearing from mikaelz, or from someone else, what the difference is between Buddhist and Taoist realizations of emptiness. I know very little about Taoist philosophy or about the type of enlightenment Taoists aim to achieve, and I would love to be filled in.

[Mark Foote]

Over the last few days I've been skimming over some verses/poems and quotes by the ancient Ch'an and Zen masters. Hui Neng, Huang Po, Tozan, Bankei Hakuin

To be quite honest some of these writings have the hallmark of philosophical Taoism (Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu) Even mentioning Tao, the Way etc etc.

Ch'an and Zen seems more like Taoism than the Indian Buddhism from where it supposed to have originated.

I think I read somewhere that in some Ch'an and Zen schools, the TTC is part of the curriculum.

Forgive my naivety in these matters as it's something I've only recently been pondering.

Any thoughts ?

 

Ok, a little off topic, but how do you like that book (the Xing Yi book in your avatar)? I was doing the exercises out of that book for years, then about December I suddenly stopped. Did the first four today, and remembered how much I liked them.

[lifeforce]

Ok, a little off topic, but how do you like that book (the Xing Yi book in your avatar)? I was doing the exercises out of that book for years, then about December I suddenly stopped. Did the first four today, and remembered how much I liked them.

 

I came across the book about 8 years ago while searching for a moving qigong/neigong set. It's quite easy to follow the movements from the book. I started out doing a few at a time until I memorized the whole set. Then I upped the number of repetitions slowly. It normally takes me about 25 minutes to complete the set.

The book speaks for itself really. What more could you want when you see Master Wang Ji Wu at nearly 100 years old still practicing daily. It has it all. Good for martial power but also very good for the overall health of the body, both externally (muscular, flexibility) and internally (organ health, and the prevention of stagnating body fluids etc).

[erdweir]

What I was commenting upon originally was the apparent similarity of Buddhist and Taoist ends, not methods. I'd still be interested in hearing from mikaelz, or from someone else, what the difference is between Buddhist and Taoist realizations of emptiness. I know very little about Taoist philosophy or about the type of enlightenment Taoists aim to achieve, and I would love to be filled in.

 

I was under the impression that emptiness in the Taoist tradition is often just a phase, a place you need to get to in order to see the Tao, not a final goal. The stillness and emptiness are required foundations that allow you to travel to the upper reaches of the mind. I think this maybe be true in Buddhism as well, although i know less of it than Taoism. This is the impression I have gotten from reading some taoist and ch'an classics, anyway.

[tyler zambori]

I was under the impression that emptiness in the Taoist tradition is often just a phase, a place you need to get to in order to see the Tao, not a final goal. The stillness and emptiness are required foundations that allow you to travel to the upper reaches of the mind. I think this maybe be true in Buddhism as well, although i know less of it than Taoism. This is the impression I have gotten from reading some taoist and ch'an classics, anyway.

 

While hanging out on Buddhist forums, and reading Buddhist books, I never saw

emptiness referred to as phase. Seeing emptiness as a phase you need get to

in order to see the Tao, makes more sense to me.

[Zhenlung]

Over the last few days I've been skimming over some verses/poems and quotes by the ancient Ch'an and Zen masters. Hui Neng, Huang Po, Tozan, Bankei Hakuin

To be quite honest some of these writings have the hallmark of philosophical Taoism (Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu) Even mentioning Tao, the Way etc etc.

Ch'an and Zen seems more like Taoism than the Indian Buddhism from where it supposed to have originated.

I think I read somewhere that in some Ch'an and Zen schools, the TTC is part of the curriculum.

Forgive my naivety in these matters as it's something I've only recently been pondering.

Any thoughts ?

 

interesting thread - fits with with a blog I found recently on taoiststudy.com that looks at the buddhist ox-herding pictures and explains it as a description of the taoist practice of alchemy. the beginning of the blog has a couple of pages that link buddhist and taoist texts and suggest as you do that chan and zen are more like taoism.

[erdweir]

While hanging out on Buddhist forums, and reading Buddhist books, I never saw

emptiness referred to as phase. Seeing emptiness as a phase you need get to

in order to see the Tao, makes more sense to me.

 

If you read Nan Huai-Chin's work, he talks about it that way. He claims to be versed in Taoism and Zen, but indicates that Zen holds the apex for him.