pacifism kills

[Lozen]

Interesting, because I see this as sort of the natural progression in the martial arts. First protect yourself, then protect your loved ones, then develop enough skill to preserve the life of your enemy.

[sean]

Interesting, because I see this as sort of the natural progression in the martial arts. First protect yourself, then protect your loved ones, then develop enough skill to preserve the life of your enemy.

Yes, you can't skip stages. You have to work your way through each. That's why I agree with you that the pacifism you are against is a cop-out. It's an attempt to skip from stage 1 to 3 prematurely. Staying informed of stages is important so we know where we are heading and so we don't misjudge people who may look, talk and behave similarly to stage 1 pacifist cop-outs but who are actually stage 3 masters.

[Lozen]

[Smile]

First you get through the fight, then if you're still alive (which you won't be if you worry about court, prison, or any other distractions) you can deal with the fight in court.

Hesitation is death.

 

If we are on a spiritual path, we may eventually develop compassion toward all sentient beings. Then we will try to find a more peaceful way to resolve confrontation, or if it's unavoidable, disable our opponent with the least harm to himself. This is the next step we may need to take in our MA training- more mature and responsible, so to speak.

[Lozen]

I hear you. I do everything I possibly can to avoid and peacefully resolve confrontation. It's a good idea, and any instructor or workshop worth their salt will discuss awareness, avoidance, resolution, verbal boundary setting, escape, and many other models. There are whole courses on this, a good one is called Self Defense from the Inside Out.

 

But the thing is that I promised myself a long time ago I would not get in a fight unless it was a life or death situation. And if it's a life or death situation, I don't know that one would have the luxury of trying to find ways to disable their opponent with the least harm and still survive. Or perhaps, the least harm might be a lot worse than we intended, and could still cause grave bodily injury. I'm okay with hurting someone to stay alive, I don't feel like I should feel bad about myself for using reasonable force to protect myself.

 

I think this is a different situation for different people, as a 5'4 woman, trying to restrain someone in a bear hug until the cops come ain't gonna do very much.

 

I do think that thinking about this too much can lead to indecisive action and therefore death.

 

Part of a Wu Chi quote, it's about armies, but the principle still stands:

 

"A general good at commanding troops is like one sitting in a leaking boat or lying under a burning roof. For there is no time for the wise to offer counsel nor the brave to be angry. All must come to grips with the enemy. And therefore it is said that of all the dangers in employing troops, timidity is the greatest and that the calamities which overtake an army arise from hesitation."

 

And my favorite quote of all time, this represents the attitude I wish to embody in my life.

 

Salutation from Inosanto/LaCoste Kali

 

I stand before the Creator and mankind on earth.

I am striving for the knowledge and wisdom of the third eye, of the five senses and beyond the five senses.

I am striving for the love of all mankind and there will be no needless shedding of blood.

I bow down to you not in submission, but in respect to you.

I extend the hand of friendship, because I prefer it over the hand of war.

But if my friendship is rejected, I am trained to be a warrior with wisdom.

I stand in symbolism, for I serve only the Creator, my family, and my country.

With my mind and heart I cherish the knowledge given to me by my instructor,

For it is my very life in combat.

I am prepared to go against you even though your skill my be greater than mine.

Because even if my physical body should fall before you to the earth, I am not worried.

For I know that my spirit will arise to the heavens, as it is unconquerable.

 

If we are on a spiritual path, we may eventually develop compassion toward all sentient beings. Then we will try to find a more peaceful way to resolve confrontation, or if it's unavoidable, disable our opponent with the least harm to himself. This is the next step we may need to take in our MA training- more mature and responsible, so to speak.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Lozen

[Lozen]

[allan-in-china]

Lozen I'm sorry for your loss.

 

Interesting, because I see this as sort of the natural progression in the martial arts. First protect yourself, then protect your loved ones, then develop enough skill to preserve the life of your enemy.

 

Yes, definitely.

 

I see the stages as:

1. infant - protected by parents

no ability to protect yourself

 

2. adult - protecting yourself and others

 

3. can't really think of a good name (senior doesn't seem to do it...) ok I'll go for enlightened warrior, but that is a bit far out I will admit... - protecting yourself, others and your enemy

 

Pacifism usually seems to be jumping from ok I can't protect myself, to ok I'll pretend I'm an enlightened warrior who doesn't want to hurt others, but as you guys have been saying you need to hit and master each stage. Though this certainly isn't what pacifists think consciously...

 

Here some people have reacted by giving you advice on what training you should have, etc. etc. But I want to throw something different in if you don't mind more friendly advice.

 

You say you are already with a great martial arts teacher, then that is perfect. Just keep training. If I were you I wouldn't and get this training and that training, because in my experience, that will just lead you to being stuck in stage 1 and 2. My experience has been I've been a white belt in about 3 martial arts, as well as a beginner in 3 chinese martial arts (they don't have belts, but I was still terrible...). So I've been a beginner in 6 martial arts. With all those martial arts, could I fight? No...

 

It wasn't till I got my head on straight and said, ok lets stop being a jack of all trades and just be a master of one, that I actually learned how to fight, and started making progress. Now I'm not at stage 3 yet, though I certainly have a tendency to avoid confrontation, but I'm actually going in that direction.

 

 

One other thing just backing the peaceful vs passive thing, one of my earlier martial arts teachers (who was very good, but I've moved to another country so...) told me of one of his experiences when he was starting learning the internal arts. He was hit by another bagua zhang practitioner, and he said the hit was so full of love, that he just fell down and cried. I believe you can be lovingly violent when appropriate.

 

Recently in the news over here there was a story: a man was being threatened by 6 people, and he was doing all he could to avoid confrontation, eventually the people attacked him, turns out he was a very skilled martial artist, and he beat the crap out of them. This is one of the reasons I study the martial arts, I want to have the confidence in myself that if I can avoid a fight I will, but if I can't avoid the fight, then I can handle it.

 

Please take care of yourself.

 

Allan

[Lozen]

hi Allan,

 

Beautifully written!!

 

And yes, I prefer your advice to the unsolicited psychoanalysis. I really can't even describe how much time I've spent formulating what I train in and why. Basically I see a huge difference between martial arts and self-defense. I have a great FMA teacher and take it very seriously. I am organizing a Fightback training that has some stuff I haven't learned yet (how to fight in a car, use your car as a weapon, etc.) and also I am going to bring every woman I know who doesn't have training and doesn't want to dedicate hours and years to martial arts and make sure they are there. Finally, I want to get certified to teach and am looking into three or four different programs that will enable me to do this, so I can pick one of them, and take classes that will lead to certification. Oh, and I'm going to another self-defense seminar which is a fundraiser. But honestly, as cheesy as this sounds, a lot of my attendance to these things is just for networking purposes, and to see what other people are teaching, since I myself want to teach. And also because it's a hell of a lot of fun. If I could go to every local ninja seminar, every Shinbikai gathering, every WSD workshop in my immediate vicinity, I would go.

 

I hear you on picking one path, but I am doing different classes for different purposes, and for fun, not so I can be bad at more arts.

 

Yael

Edited February 8, 2006 by Lozen

[Lozen]

Btw, Sean's link was missing the l, it is this: http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/29/sonnon3.html

[Lozen]

ARGH just one more thing, and I am sorry for posting five times in a row, but I remember that Chris would often break up fights, like literally get between two people fighting and put himself at risk--does that mean that he got through stage 2?

[allan-in-china]

ARGH just one more thing, and I am sorry for posting five times in a row, but I remember that Chris would often break up fights, like literally get between two people fighting and put himself at risk--does that mean that he got through stage 2?

 

To be honest I've got no idea. I think you have to be able to fight to walk the path we've been talking about, but maybe he was making his own path and he may have been a long way down that?

 

I think the fundamental belief in the value of yourself is really important though, with all simplistic models, in some areas people will look like they are level 3 (or whatever level) while in other areas they will look very underdeveloped. Although my personal belief is you can't really fully love others, if you don't love yourself.

 

He may have just been really opposed to physical fighting due to his genetics or past?

 

But I don't want to begin psychoanalysing someone I don't know, because I'm bound to get it wrong, and quite probably annoy you. Lol!

 

Allan

[Lozen]

But I don't want to begin psychoanalysing someone I don't know, because I'm bound to get it wrong, and quite probably annoy you. Lol!

 

LOL! It just amazes me how everybody knows all the answers when it comes to self-defense and analyzing people they don't know. Everyone is a self-proclaimed expert. Whether they are telling you to be pacifistic and carry a whistle to avoid escalating a situation, or they'll tell you to take self-defense to get real training, or if you do self-defense they'll tell you that you need to delve deeply into martial arts, and if you do empty hand they'll tell you that you're incapable of handling a situation with multiple opponents or with a weapon, but if you train to deal with multiples and weapons, people will tell you that you are attracting bad situations to yourself. If you train in ground fighting, people will again say you can't handle multiples or weapons, if you don't train in ground fighting they;ll tell you what % of fights end up on the ground, if you focus on avoidance and deterrents, people will tell you that you're overly paranoid, if you don't focus on avoidance and deterrents people will blame you for the situations you end up in (and rightfully so.) If you get in a situation where you can defend yourself but choose not to, people will tell you that you are trying to relive past trauma. If you use self-defense people will tell you that you should have done nothing. If you do nothing, people will tell you that you are a coward. If you have a weapon then you are drawing bad energy to yourself and will be more likely to use it, if you don't have a weapon, you are stupid for going empty handed against someone with a weapon. You can't win.

 

The question I ask myself is usually who ARE these people and do I care what they think? Do they actually have expertise other than their self-proclaimed expertise? What real world experiences do they have? Are they trying to sell me something?

 

Because the truth is that the more I train the less scenarios I have been in, the more I see them from a million miles away, and lately it seems t hat I do keep hearing stories, but it is all from people around me. Basically people all around me (three recently in a neighborhood near me) are getting assaulted, and I'm not. So I'm happy.

 

I did find a pro-violence article today that I like though, it's a bit right-wing but I found it interesting. It will piss some people off so brace yourselves: http://www.coastalpost.com/98/1/18.htm

[Pietro]

I would like to jump in, without having read all that was said before. But noticing this thread and the thread on truth, both started from Lozen, may I recomend to you, Lozen, the autobiography of Gandhi, called: My experiments with the Truth" I finished reading it few weeks ago and found it very interesting.

 

Also, are you sure of your friend knew he would have been killed he would have rather been violent and defend itself? Suppose he had the time to deeply meditate on the topic. He seemed to have made the transition while being in integrity with his believes. Some people get violent in moment like this, and (some) later regret it. So, while I can understand the sadness for losing a friend, he is also a person who reached the end of his life with integrity. As we are all (exclusion made for a few alchemists) going to die, that's really not bad.