Amazing diagnosis of TCM doctor

[moxi]

you know i can't remember where i found this picture, but i think what i read was he's 70 years old, and did this finger stand for a day and passed away shortly after. the web page where i found this was alot better and more informative than what i just said.

[Gerard]

It is a lost Shaolin skill some monks practiced. One or two finger skill depending on how many fingers where used to practice the hand (finger) stand.

[Guest paul walter]

you know i can't remember where i found this picture, but i think what i read was he's 70 years old, and did this finger stand for a day and passed away shortly after. the web page where i found this was alot better and more informative than what i just said.

 

 

Probably directed all his yang into the earth with sword-fingers and paid the price . Yeah, there's a Shaolin 'circus' monk who did this with ONE finger (I'm pretty sure even though now the more I think of it I'm going: "two fingers, yeah, that's easy. One? Nahhh!") who I saw on the German news in the 90's.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

YES!!! Great stories!

Why do you think I spent nearly 105,000 dollars to learn the medicine. And that's why Chiro's and MD's should NOT do acupuncture after a 200 hour certification. I have a FOUR year Master's degree and I am still learning.

 

 

 

 

Eternal Student, I completely respect your dedication to your art. But are you saying that MD's and chiropractors are doing harm, or are not helping people? Are you not just at another, higher level in your medicine than they are? By your logic, nurse practitioners and physician's assistants shouldn't be able to practice then, since they're not MD's, who have spent many more years and many more thousands to attain their knowledge, and are greatly more experienced. Isn't there a role for the MD's to do their thing with acupuncture, too?

Edited February 3, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[moxi]

It is a lost Shaolin skill some monks practiced. One or two finger skill depending on how many fingers where used to practice the hand (finger) stand.

 

 

Probably directed all his yang into the earth with sword-fingers and paid the price . Yeah, there's a Shaolin 'circus' monk who did this with ONE finger (I'm pretty sure even though now the more I think of it I'm going: "two fingers, yeah, that's easy. One? Nahhh!") who I saw on the German news in the 90's.

 

 

that web site was also talking about a lost skill of being able to jump about 30 ft or higher, and it's lost because one of the masters students, used his skills to steal and evade authorities, so he said to his student he can never you his skill again, or he'll kill him, or something like that. thats one skill that i'd love to have.

[Guest paul walter]

that web site was also talking about a lost skill of being able to jump about 30 ft or higher, and it's lost because one of the masters students, used his skills to steal and evade authorities, so he said to his student he can never you his skill again, or he'll kill him, or something like that. thats one skill that i'd love to have.

 

Well what else would you use it for?--mountain climbing, Cirque du Soleil, rescuing kittens in trees, gutter cleaning service...? Yeah, I've read accounts of that skill too. Any ideas on what the site was--sounds like if I type in 'That's Incredible'/China something may come up. Paul

[Eternal_Student]

Eternal Student, I completely respect your dedication to your art. But are you saying that MD's and chiropractors are doing harm, or are not helping people? Are you not just at another, higher level in your medicine than they are? By your logic, nurse practitioners and physician's assistants shouldn't be able to practice then, since they're not MD's, who have spent many more years and many more thousands to attain their knowledge, and are greatly more experienced. Isn't there a role for the MD's to do their thing with acupuncture, too?

 

 

I do not think a Western health care practitioner should perform Eastern Medicine, regardless of their experience or education. If this hypothetical Western practitioner had BOTH education systems, then yes. Just like I should not practice Western internal medicine after a 200 hour certification. I would not be qualified to understand the chemistry behind the drug interactions and receptors in the body. They are NOT qualified to understand the energetic art behind the entire medicine after a weekend.

 

Don't try to take my job and I wont try to take yours. There is more than left brained education behind this medicine. In China there are two wings to a hospital. A "modern" wing with Western devices, and a "traditional" wing with classical treatments.

 

PT's have tried to take our ability to stick needles into people and called it "dry needling". Then eventually it has led to them saying that they perform acupuncture. What they do is treat isolated muscle structures with a single needle to break up trigger points. This is NOT acupuncture as a system, but one small aspect of what we do.

 

There is not only the monetary and job leaching of our medicine, but there is straight problems with how they perform their needling. I have multiple patients who went to MD acupuncturists with permanent nerve damage because MD"s think they are supposed to manipulate just the nervous system. They don't understand the art OR the science behind what they are supposed to do.

 

You can't just stick a needle in someone and call it acupuncture. Its the energy of the practitioner, the technique on the needle, the manipulation of the channel, the interaction of the channel with the divergents, the movement of the divergent though the organ, the organ imput into the brain/emotion/spirit and so much more!!!

To learn a protocol thats supposed to work on every system every time is stupid. Each person has a unique energy signature and pattern. Every diagnosis is different for every patient, depending on time, circumstance, daily interaction. Its so much more complicated than learning LI 4 is for a headache.

 

So no. Leave me my expertise, and I wont attempt any ER work anytime soon.

[Eternal_Student]

I feel strongly about this...

 

In no way should you personally feel the vibration of that post as directed towards you.

I am making sure you step to the side and realize what just came out of me is a combination of teachers opinions from my school as well as myself and my close acupuncture friends...

 

Thank you for putting the needle in my sore spot and allowing me to vent some qi stagnation.

You just performed a treatment for me.

 

Gratitude.

 

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

...

Edited February 5, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Guest paul walter]

 

PT's have tried to take our ability to stick needles into people and called it "dry needling". Then eventually it has led to them saying that they perform acupuncture. What they do is treat isolated muscle structures with a single needle to break up trigger points. This is NOT acupuncture as a system, but one small aspect of what we do.

 

There is not only the monetary and job leaching of our medicine, but there is straight problems with how they perform their needling. I have multiple patients who went to MD acupuncturists with permanent nerve damage because MD"s think they are supposed to manipulate just the nervous system. They don't understand the art OR the science behind what they are supposed to do.

 

I had a fairly serious build up of fluid in an injury that came about through trauma resulting in burst blood vessels/oedema in my lower right leg. Saw a podiatrist who 'learnt' some acupuncture and she stuck a needle right in the distended mound that is my injury site in order to influence the nerve/muscle in there somewhere which would in turn loosen the pulling tension on my foot.Youch! She looks at me then says do you want to come in on Sunday to take part in a class given by her 'teacher' to a dozen students (he advertised his practice as: acupuncturist). I say yeah (free treatment, since i found he charged 250 dollars for a first session) and the guy does exactly the same thing-though with more explanatory theory . Neither 'treatment' had much effect needless to say--just kind of stick-it-into-the-area-and-see-what-happens approach. They left them in for a few minutes. They were the LONG needles too-and when it hits a muscle..oooohh!. Don't know if there was any damage done. Later when I was seeing a Singaporian acpuncturist he looks around my injury site ad looks me in the eye and says "don't EVER let anyone put a needle in there"...I didn't own up, just mused to myself about the doubts I had originally had when they were 'operating' on me. It's pretty outrageous that doctors of western medicine can advertise as being acupuncturists--it's giving people entirely the wrong idea--even to the extent of making them think it is simply an adjunct to western medicine, like pills or a cough medicine etc. Paul

[alexandrov]

PT's have tried to take our ability to stick needles into people and called it "dry needling". Then eventually it has led to them saying that they perform acupuncture. What they do is treat isolated muscle structures with a single needle to break up trigger points. This is NOT acupuncture as a system, but one small aspect of what we do.

 

There is not only the monetary and job leaching of our medicine, but there is straight problems with how they perform their needling. I have multiple patients who went to MD acupuncturists with permanent nerve damage because MD"s think they are supposed to manipulate just the nervous system. They don't understand the art OR the science behind what they are supposed to do.

 

You can't just stick a needle in someone and call it acupuncture. Its the energy of the practitioner, the technique on the needle, the manipulation of the channel, the interaction of the channel with the divergents, the movement of the divergent though the organ, the organ imput into the brain/emotion/spirit and so much more!!!

To learn a protocol thats supposed to work on every system every time is stupid. Each person has a unique energy signature and pattern. Every diagnosis is different for every patient, depending on time, circumstance, daily interaction. Its so much more complicated than learning LI 4 is for a headache.

 

 

From my understanding dry needling can be an effective approach to dealing with trigger points and myofascial pain on its own right. I have talked to and observed a PT that does dry needling and he DOES NOT consider it acupuncture and does not claim to practice acupuncture or any form or energetic medicine. The practice itself does not resemble acupuncture i have seen (its worth noting i have not seen all forms of acupuncture) as the PT moves the needle around in the muscle and does not leave it in very long (usually less then a minute per point). I know that a lot of areas where trigger points normally form correspond to acupuncture points.

 

From your post above it seems that trigger point release with needles has been a part of oriental medicine for a while, is this correct?

 

 

If you look into the history of using needles to treat trigger points youll see that it did in fact develop independantly in the west, and was recorded being used in europe for at least a few centuries. De baillou described the phenomena of trigger points in the fifteenth century and women's hair pins were used to treat trigger points in the lower back area in victorian england.

 

I know that the american acupuncture association (or some association with a similar name) a while back tried to make pt's say they were in fact practicing a form of acupuncture.

 

Trigger points can be released by manual pressure, with special lasers and other modalities as well, so in my opinion if you are releasing a trigger point with manual pressure or dry needling it can be considered trigger point release either way.

 

Saying that sticking needles in people in a theraputic manner is necessarrily acupuncture or that PT's have tried to steal acupuncture and call it dry needling I think is a bit extreme. It is kind of like saying conventional massage therapists practice a corrupted form of tui-na or acupressure because they dont deal with acupoints and channels, and that they need tui-na certification to correctly practice.

 

To me dry needling if its purpose is simply to release a trigger point is not necessarily acupuncture. Then again....it could be considered acupuncture, it really all comes down to how you look at it.

 

I definitely agree with you that most acupuncturists who have had extensive western medicine training first tend to approach and practice oriental medicine in a corrupted and ineffective manner. Its like they have a need and fear to try and make everything so scientific and try to downplay essential modalities and concepts that westerners may have trouble buying into. Its disgusting. I think its especially dangerous for herbalism, because OM herbal formulas are prepared in specific ways to "guide" medicines to specific areas of the body and throwing this essential knowledge in the garbage heap and just focusing on the chemical substances in the herbs can completly destroy the functionality of a formula.

 

As far as the nerve damage goes im interested, do you know of anyone who has been injured from dry needling, or was that just from MD's trained in acupuncture??

 

thanks for your post

[Aetherous]

Dry needling for trigger point therapy is very iffy. Spray and stretch seems to be the best method.

[z00se]

In japan they usually put the accupuncture needle in not very deep, maybe 1cm maximum. In china they have long accupuncture needles and poke them in very deep. To push in 5cms would not be uncommon. They had a story on the news where some doctor had a very very long needle, maybe 60-70 cms long and pushed it all the way down this guys back beside his spine. Before he couldn't walk and after the treatment he could. It was a miracle. I don't know how often this kinda stuff goes on but if u find the right doctor miracles can happen.

 

I also couldn't help thinking to my self how many people did this doctor go through in the process of learning this technique hehe

 

My friend from tai chi is a japanese accupuncturist and has come to china and is studying it at uni here too. The styles are quiet different she says.

 

I wonder has anyone come accross these sorts of stories of very long needles being used in their western accupuncture studies? Eternal student maybe? You seem to have massive training in it.

 

Still i believe from viewing the effectiveness of different doctors over the years it's best to know your stuff on perhaps a much smaller scale and do it well then be able to do everything without much result.

Edited February 5, 2010 by z00se

[alexandrov]

Dry needling for trigger point therapy is very iffy. Spray and stretch seems to be the best method.

 

 

what makes you say this?

[alexandrov]

In japan they usually put the accupuncture needle in not very deep, maybe 1cm maximum. In china they have long accupuncture needles and poke them in very deep. To push in 5cms would not be uncommon. They had a story on the news where some doctor had a very very long needle, maybe 60-70 cms long and pushed it all the way down this guys back beside his spine. Before he couldn't walk and after the treatment he could. It was a miracle. I don't know how often this kinda stuff goes on but if u find the right doctor miracles can happen.

 

I also couldn't help thinking to my self how many people did this doctor go through in the process of learning this technique hehe

 

My friend from tai chi is a japanese accupuncturist and has come to china and is studying it at uni here too. The styles are quiet different she says.

 

I wonder has anyone come accross these sorts of stories of very long needles being used in their western accupuncture studies? Eternal student maybe? You seem to have massive training in it.

 

Still i believe from viewing the effectiveness of different doctors over the years it's best to know your stuff on perhaps a much smaller scale and do it well then be able to do everything without much result.

 

In dry needling I have seen PT's go in like maybe around 1 1/2 inches deep maximum, but usually its more 1/2 inch to 1 inch range and they usually dont go straight in the will go in at angles.

[Aetherous]

The problem with dry needling is that you have to precisely locate the trigger point. Most aren't so palpable, and aren't actually in the painful area.

[Kameel]

The problem with dry needling is that you have to precisely locate the trigger point. Most aren't so palpable, and aren't actually in the painful area.

Hmm...I don't know much about dry needling, but the vast majority of trigger points are palpable. The vasoconstriction of the nerves, lymph, muscles, fascia, blood flow, etc is what makes them "trigger" when touched. It's true that they can present as satellite lesions/points, but they are reproducable and can be mapped out according to injury type, location, etc.

[Ya Mu]

Hmm...I don't know much about dry needling, but the vast majority of trigger points are palpable. The vasoconstriction of the nerves, lymph, muscles, fascia, blood flow, etc is what makes them "trigger" when touched. It's true that they can present as satellite lesions/points, but they are reproducable and can be mapped out according to injury type, location, etc.

 

I can palpate trigger points and used to do (25-30 years ago) some work mostly per Travell. What I found is that there is really not much need to pay attention to them. The Taoist Medicine technique goes to the source and tells the nerve itself to tell the body to be at ease.

 

Re: Acupuncture

It all depends on the who the person is. I have met one Chiropractor that, as far as skills and efficacy goes, I would say he was right up there with the best of the USA acupuncturists. But that was one out of a hundred or so. Most I have met that said they did acupuncture IMO didn't know much about what they were doing. I can say the same about certified acupuncturists. I have met a few that were really good and many that did not get much results. Why is that? It is all about manipulation of energy and if the person doing the manipulating thinks that it is only a needle doing it, and doesn't practice qigong, they will not get as much effect; doesn't matter what their education is. MD's doing acupuncture? Same applies. I know a MD doing acupuncture that gets fantastic results. But they also do qigong. I think the UCLA school of medicine program in acupuncture is not a bad program. No, not as deep a training as NCCAOM certified acupuncturists. IMO the acupuncture schools should add much more qigong to their programs. So should the medical schools. So should the massage schools. IMO physical therapists should also be trained in qigong if they wish to do manual medicine.

To quote the head acupuncture doctor at Guan An Men hospital in PRC, "Our doctors who practice qigong get far better results than our doctors who don't."

Bottom line IMO is that any practitioner of any discipline that wishes to help others should be required to learn about energetics and if anyone is getting into the business just to make money - don't.

[Eternal_Student]

In japan they usually put the accupuncture needle in not very deep, maybe 1cm maximum. In china they have long accupuncture needles and poke them in very deep. To push in 5cms would not be uncommon. They had a story on the news where some doctor had a very very long needle, maybe 60-70 cms long and pushed it all the way down this guys back beside his spine. Before he couldn't walk and after the treatment he could. It was a miracle. I don't know how often this kinda stuff goes on but if u find the right doctor miracles can happen.

 

I also couldn't help thinking to my self how many people did this doctor go through in the process of learning this technique hehe

 

My friend from tai chi is a japanese accupuncturist and has come to china and is studying it at uni here too. The styles are quiet different she says.

 

I wonder has anyone come accross these sorts of stories of very long needles being used in their western accupuncture studies? Eternal student maybe? You seem to have massive training in it.

 

Still i believe from viewing the effectiveness of different doctors over the years it's best to know your stuff on perhaps a much smaller scale and do it well then be able to do everything without much result.

 

I have seen 3 year chronic stroke victims regain control of limbs and speech. I have personally worked on facial paralysis with almost 99% recovery rate. One patient was just too many years down the road.

 

I have used a 6 inch needle on someone's scalp before; for paralysis. I regularly needle 5 inches into hips. The huato points on the back are miracle workers. I just had a patient today with a tumor in his trochanter who has had pain for 20 plus years. He walked out with no pain and was so grateful. Those are the moments that keep you going in the medicine. I may not be a millionaire, but I get to see magic happen...

 

Edited February 6, 2010 by Eternal_Student

[Eternal_Student]

 

 

IMO the acupuncture schools should add much more qigong to their programs. So should the medical schools. So should the massage schools. IMO physical therapists should also be trained in qigong if they wish to do manual medicine.

To quote the head acupuncture doctor at Guan An Men hospital in PRC, "Our doctors who practice qigong get far better results than our doctors who don't."

Bottom line IMO is that any practitioner of any discipline that wishes to help others should be required to learn about energetics and if anyone is getting into the business just to make money - don't.

 

 

AMEN! That's why we have to keep pushing the qi gong in Western society. I see whole graduating classes on a regular basis now, and out of say 20 people, the 2 most successful students are ALWAYS the ones who practice qi gong. The rest just kind of fall by the wayside eventually or burn out.

 

If I hadn't found some of the exercises that I know practice, I would have accumulated too much Xie qi from my patients and would have burnt out long ago. The 10 year mark just makes your medicine that much stronger, as you know...

[alexandrov]

ok so I have done more research on this topic and it seems dry needling is the same or at least very similar to ah shi acupuncture or acupuncture done on painful tender points.

 

can anybody comment on this?

[SingaporeGuyHere]

Later when I was seeing a Singaporian acpuncturist he looks around my injury site ad looks me in the eye and says "don't EVER let anyone put a needle in there"...I didn't own up, just mused to myself about the doubts I had originally had when they were 'operating' on me.

 

its Singaporean

 

btw just curious where this sinseh is located

Edited March 14, 2010 by SingaporeGuyHere

[Taomeow]

ok so I have done more research on this topic and it seems dry needling is the same or at least very similar to ah shi acupuncture or acupuncture done on painful tender points.

 

can anybody comment on this?

 

I know su jok -- the Korean method -- that works with painful tender points on hands and feet. The ones that matter are VERY painful. They are pretty hard to find, partially because the best su jok uses "the system of the insect" rather than "the system of the human" -- so you are, technically, looking for the karmic problems of an individual of a particular species encapsulated in a point on the "virtual body" of a different one! Once you've found it (or rather, "if" you've found it), pain is going to be worse than anything you've ever experienced with any piercing acupuncture in any spot at any depth. The woman who taught me told me she fainted when her teacher used the tip of a ball point pen to press on a point on her fingernail -- not too hard -- and that this is fairly typical. However, healing can be instantaneous if the right point is found.

[SingaporeGuyHere]

I know su jok -- the Korean method -- that works with painful tender points on hands and feet. The ones that matter are VERY painful. They are pretty hard to find, partially because the best su jok uses "the system of the insect" rather than "the system of the human" -- so you are, technically, looking for the karmic problems of an individual of a particular species encapsulated in a point on the "virtual body" of a different one! Once you've found it (or rather, "if" you've found it), pain is going to be worse than anything you've ever experienced with any piercing acupuncture in any spot at any depth. The woman who taught me told me she fainted when her teacher used the tip of a ball point pen to press on a point on her fingernail -- not too hard -- and that this is fairly typical. However, healing can be instantaneous if the right point is found.

 

sounds interesting ! looking for karmic problems...so i guess it heals those karmic problems as well ??

[z00se]

Got a few more amazing things he's figured out from the pulse so thought i'd add them in....

 

correctly diagnosed gallbladder stones and what size which matched to western doctors diagnosis

bone cancer

fat on the liver

epilepsy

heart disease

Western doctors didn't know if someones throat had cancer but he said they didn't (not proven either way though)

Tumors in wombs, stomachs, brains, breasts and their size. Several times matched western doctors diagnosis's sometimes not diagnosed by western doctors

Sore necks & backs.

high/low blood pressure

diabeties

 

So pretty much just about everything. There were some things that got translated into english for me and i've never even heard of it before and don't even know what it is haha.

Sometimes he doesn't know from the pulse though and has to ask the patient. It's not like he can know every single disease from every person just by the pulse. But he can tell a hell of alot from it.

 

Something else that surprises me though is that he never asks if someone smokes. Sometimes he might ask if they drink but smoking is never something he asks about.