What happens when you meditate?

[Sarnyn]

Well... Although I understand why you took all neural firing stimuli under the name of thought, I'd like to contradict you. Although thoughts and other firing processes work the same, they are not the same. The difference is that thoughts have a meaning for us, while others don't. Those which do not form a mental image or inner sound have little to do with our thinking. The control of vegetative functions in the brain is like this. The process by which your brain drives your heartbeat or digestion isn't really much of a thought, is it? So I think it's rather adequate to define thought as the stimuli of neurons which lead to a prolonged way of thinking that can involve awareness and free will, for thoughts also have the characteristic of changeability, but you (usually) can't change your vegetative functions by will. There are the same kinds of neurons (nerve cells) in your brain and in your spinal cord, and they all use the same firing sequence to forward stimuli. Yet, you wouldn't say that you think with your spinal cord, do you?

No I probably would agree with you. But I would follow that up to say then, that thinking is not the only activity which strengthens the neural network. For instance, we might debate that "concentraiting" is a form of thinking or not. But whether it is a form of thinking or not seems to be less important than whether or not concentration stimulates and strengthens the neural network. Almost all forms of meditation include some form of concentration practice, be it concentration of a sound, an image, or a sensation in the body. This act of concentration appears to stimulate the brain even more than the brain state of working or thinking.

 

Here is a picture of brainwaves, and thier association with different states of consciousness,

 

 

Now we can see from this image, that the state of conscioussness that appears to have the most activity, and this has been verified with PET scans, are states of relaxation and meditation.

 

Here is an example,

 

 

Although not all the synaptic connections break up and synaptic firing doesn't end since many functions of the brain still work while not forming any conceptual thought, many other synapses which hold thoughts we used to think of literally loosen up while meditating. We can argue about whether focusing on your sensory organs' stimuli is a form of thinking or not. Probably this question could divide the global philosophical community in two. So let's correct and say that meditation is a mental state which is void of conceptual thinking. This also might need to be defined, for memory might be a form of concept. It might be possible that we can only experience things we already know - there is a theory for this. So we might have an associative thought for everything we currently sense. Whether this associative thought is conceptual or not, I don't know. But if we accept these as non-conceptual, then this definition should be adequate.

 

I can agree to that, because concentration definitely is not a kind of "conceptual thinking." However here again, is conceptual thinking the only activity that seems to strengthen the neural pathways? I don't think we can make that statement.

 

Also, while I can agree with you that meditation wouldn't be classified as a form of conceptual thinking, it also is not a state of passivity, and so should not be compared to a vegetative state where a neaural network is relaxed or loosened.

 

Thank you, and you're probably right. This happens when one has no possibility to learn from someone who is already on a high level in these things. I learned from books, which aren't really the best source to learn anything in relation to spirituality. Then I needed to wipe out lots of garbage I read, and figure out some things which weren't adequately explained - like what it means "don't think", or "focus on your breath". Focusing can be done in many ways, you can even involve physical tension in it... So figuring out how to do it properly, or how to meditate properly, is not so easy without a teacher. I still didn't reach anything unusual via my meditations, and I use my searching and creating theories to help step forward. So if I'm really wrong in something then I'd like to know that. For this, it's really nice of you that you took the time to respond, I appreciate it.

 

Btw, I know that there are many ways of meditation, even types in which a specific kind of thinking is necessary. I think it's obvious that in this topic I was talking about the kind of meditation which doesn't involve thinking...

I also would like to take a moment to thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. You've been very gracious in your discussions here, and I've enjoyed the conversation so far.

 

Yes finding an accomplished teacher is very difficult, but then again, they say in the way of meditation, you are your own best teacher =-)

 

Btw I also wanted to say how I think this is a great subject of debate/conversation, I think too many religious/spiritual people accept their assumed benefits of their practices without being very rigorous in their thinking about them, and it does nothing but good to cause a person to examine why they practice what they practice.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Sarnyn

[Athanor]

A most excellent response, Sarnyn, thank you. I must agree with you. Now I just need to learn proper meditation

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Science has yet to determine the residence of memory.. the 'brain' doesn't seem to be the residence of memory, there is some evidence that memory is resident in the whole body, and beyond.. there are several research programs working on the theory that memory, all collective memory, exists in the ZPF (Zero Point Field) and is accessed, first by resonance with the individual's 'energetic signature, and occasionally by modifying one's 'energetic signature' to access greater portions of the 'collective memory'.. it is those occasions where one accesses the 'collective memory' that sometimes are interpreted as 'past life' experiences.. where the experiencer might resonate with a past experience or personality, and upon evaluation of that 'memory' interpret it to be their specific 'past life' experience.. which, is not wholly untrue considering the interconnectedness of all things.. it's mostly about the focus the individual's awareness, their skill at 'energetics', and their understanding of programming..

 

The ability of hypnosis to adjust the frequency and coherence of a subject's energetic signature produces very clear, accurate, and verifiable recollections of situations that are unavailable to the subject's current energetic status.. the research into the ZPF as the residence of memory satisfies many of the questions previously unanswerable when attributing memory to a physical process..

 

A sterile but unbiased evaluation of meditation might reveal that it is a skill of modifying the experiencer's energetic signature, varied according to the desired result.. the benefit of this perspective is to minimize the effect of preferences and programming distorting a fundamental process into something 'mystical'..

 

Anyway, just some 'food for thought'..

 

Be well..

[~jK~]

I can agree to that, because concentration definitely is not a kind of "conceptual thinking." However here again, is conceptual thinking the only activity that seems to strengthen the neural pathways? I don't think we can make that statement.

 

Also, while I can agree with you that meditation wouldn't be classified as a form of conceptual thinking, it also is not a state of passivity, and so should not be compared to a vegetative state where a neaural network is relaxed or loosened.

 

Btw I also wanted to say how I think this is a great subject of debate/conversation, I think too many religious/spiritual people accept their assumed benefits of their practices without being very rigorous in their thinking about them, and it does nothing but good to cause a person to examine why they practice what they practice.

Now it seems there are 2 trying to push their BS.

Actually Conceptional Meditation is taught as a form of meditation in Buddhism - see: http://www.amazon.com/Concentration-Meditation-Manual-Mind-Development/dp/1862042608

[OneSeeker]

Now it seems there are 2 trying to push their BS.

Actually Conceptional Meditation is taught as a form of meditation in Buddhism - see: http://www.amazon.com/Concentration-Meditation-Manual-Mind-Development/dp/1862042608

 

Ouch, that seems a bit immoderate.

 

There may be some confusion here because of the use of the English word "meditation." In Western practice, there's a clear distinction between meditation, which maintains the dualistic subject-object relationship, and "contemplation," in which that relationship is transcended. In general usage, however, the word meditation is applied willy-nilly to all of the meditative and contemplative practices of West and East, and misunderstandings can arise.

 

From this perspective, in meditation properly speaking, the object of meditation can, indeed, be a concept; Marcus Aurelius and Descartes provide outstanding examples of this approach. Other objects can include images, visualizations, words (mantras, the Jesus Prayer) and so on. Contemplation, in contrast, is like the non-directed awareness sought in zazen and similar Eastern methods. That's my understanding of the topic, anyway, so it could be way off the mark.

[C T]

Ouch, that seems a bit immoderate.

 

There may be some confusion here because of the use of the English word "meditation." In Western practice, there's a clear distinction between meditation, which maintains the dualistic subject-object relationship, and "contemplation," in which that relationship is transcended. In general usage, however, the word meditation is applied willy-nilly to all of the meditative and contemplative practices of West and East, and misunderstandings can arise.

 

From this perspective, in meditation properly speaking, the object of meditation can, indeed, be a concept; Marcus Aurelius and Descartes provide outstanding examples of this approach. Other objects can include images, visualizations, words (mantras, the Jesus Prayer) and so on. Contemplation, in contrast, is like the non-directed awareness sought in zazen and similar Eastern methods. That's my understanding of the topic, anyway, so it could be way off the mark.

Dont think you are off the mark here at all.

 

In many regards Meditation concerns focus, a sort of converting the mind into something like a zoom lens and then fixating itself on a subject. On the other hand, Contemplations are more pervasive and spacious, which allows the practitioner the freedom to roam the fields of endless divine possibilities and 'play with the gods' so to speak. Or it could be just an exercise in total relaxation. Its hard to find this state with Meditation, which is more like a profoundly conscious and mindful exercise to get at the root of old and redundant habits and then ousting them either thru peaceful means (the less harmful ones) or with more 'wrathful' methods if some of these ol'habits are more stubborn.

[Sarnyn]

Now it seems there are 2 trying to push their BS.

Actually Conceptional Meditation is taught as a form of meditation in Buddhism - see: http://www.amazon.com/Concentration-Meditation-Manual-Mind-Development/dp/1862042608

I think you misunderstand my friend. Your link isn't about conceptualization at all. I think you are confusing "conceptual thinking" with "concentration." Conceptual thinking is not the same are concentration. The link that you have provided is about concentration techniques, which if you have read my previous post you will see I've already highlighted as an important facet of meditation practice. In fact, if you more carefully read my post, you will see that my entire argument is that the primary activity of meditation, which is concentration, causes as much neural activity in the brain as the normal thinking states. You've missed the fact that I am actually agreeing with you.

 

I'm not sure that you fully grasp the conversation that is going on right now, probably due to your word confusion.

 

Conceptual thinking, is the act of forming a concept, or an idea, based on a logical process of thinking, that requires the abstract visualization of logical concepts.

 

Concentration (in meditation) is the act of focusing with the will (right effort) on any given stimuli, be it a pictorial mental image,a sound, or some other physical sensation. Outside of meditation, we usually define concentration as fixing the will or effort to some task or some occurrence. It might require concentration to perform a particularly complex maneuver of conceptual thinking, but the two are not the same thing.

 

So when I said that meditation is usually not conceptual in nature (there are some exceptions of course, meditation on Koans, or on the Suttras can be very conceptual), that is not negating concentration as a tool in meditation. In fact, my contention, which I've already made clear in previous posts, is that concentration is ALWAYS a facet of meditation.

 

with metta

sarnyn

Edited February 4, 2010 by Sarnyn

[Sarnyn]

Greetings..

 

Science has yet to determine the residence of memory.. the 'brain' doesn't seem to be the residence of memory, there is some evidence that memory is resident in the whole body, and beyond.. there are several research programs working on the theory that memory, all collective memory, exists in the ZPF (Zero Point Field) and is accessed, first by resonance with the individual's 'energetic signature, and occasionally by modifying one's 'energetic signature' to access greater portions of the 'collective memory'.. it is those occasions where one accesses the 'collective memory' that sometimes are interpreted as 'past life' experiences.. where the experiencer might resonate with a past experience or personality, and upon evaluation of that 'memory' interpret it to be their specific 'past life' experience.. which, is not wholly untrue considering the interconnectedness of all things.. it's mostly about the focus the individual's awareness, their skill at 'energetics', and their understanding of programming..

 

The ability of hypnosis to adjust the frequency and coherence of a subject's energetic signature produces very clear, accurate, and verifiable recollections of situations that are unavailable to the subject's current energetic status.. the research into the ZPF as the residence of memory satisfies many of the questions previously unanswerable when attributing memory to a physical process..

 

A sterile but unbiased evaluation of meditation might reveal that it is a skill of modifying the experiencer's energetic signature, varied according to the desired result.. the benefit of this perspective is to minimize the effect of preferences and programming distorting a fundamental process into something 'mystical'..

 

Anyway, just some 'food for thought'..

 

Be well..

you mentioned various studies into the relationship between ZPF and memory. Do you have any links, or can you cite any sources that I could look up? It sounds fascinating... sort of similar to the idea of the western alchemists concept of the aether, or the now unpopular concept of the lumineferous aether that was widely accepted during the late 19th century, but is now largely superseded. I understand the difference revolves around

 

In any case I would love to read up on any serious studies being conducted into its association with memory, because I have a hard time visualizing a mechanism to explain that interaction.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Sarnyn

[TzuJanLi]

Do you have any links, or can you cite any sources that I could look up?

Hi Sarnyn: The most beneficial process is to read The Field by, Lynn McTaggert, Google: Zero Point Field, and be diligent in reading as many hits as you can ( i've researched over 200 hits and the sources cited), and read Through the Western Gate, by Rick Barrett.. Rick has identified a physical system that links us to the Cosmos, the Connective Tissue System.. Google: Connective Tissue Tensegrity, you will be surprised.. i've researched over 200 hits and the sources cited on this one, too.. You come away feeling like you are more connected 'physically', than you have ever imagined.. Good Luck!!

 

Be well..

[Sarnyn]

Hi Sarnyn: The most beneficial process is to read The Field by, Lynn McTaggert, Google: Zero Point Field, and be diligent in reading as many hits as you can ( i've researched over 200 hits and the sources cited), and read Through the Western Gate, by Rick Barrett.. Rick has identified a physical system that links us to the Cosmos, the Connective Tissue System.. Google: Connective Tissue Tensegrity, you will be surprised.. i've researched over 200 hits and the sources cited on this one, too.. You come away feeling like you are more connected 'physically', than you have ever imagined.. Good Luck!!

 

Be well..

thank you very much for your suggestions! I do appreciate your time and effort, and I am only probing because I am genuinely interested, but I note that Lynn McTaggert is a journalist, not a scientist, and Rick Barrett is a Sifu, also without sufficient scientific credentials. What I am looking for is more concrete... rigorous studies, hopefully in some accepted academic journals, like Nature... Scientific American, or the New Scientist for example, some peer reviewed academic periodical? Has the connection between the zero point field and consciousness been investigated by anyone with any real scientific credentials?

 

I think it's important to be vigorous here, because otherwise it looks a little bit like when quantum physics started gaining appeal to a certain market, and suddenly you had every new age guru trying to connect quantum theory with their ideas, and usually very badly. In my mind, this not only does a disservice to science, but it does a disservice to spiritualists and genuine seekers.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Sarnyn

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Sarnyn: I appreciate your concern regarding authenticity and research.. that's why i suggest that you do your own research, Lynn McTaggart is indeed a journalist, but.. she has researched some very credible science and compiled that research for the public to scrutinize.. Rick Barrett is a Sifu, he is also a Polarity Therapist, and.. he has dedicated a significant amount research into some profound evidence for the evolution of the human experience.. i don't just accept 'wikipedia' sound-bytes, i chase the references and sources, that is where you find the substance.. Science depends on 'new' concepts, it depends on imagination and dreamers to feed its process of investigation.. we can plod along waiting for science to lead us, or we can lead science..

 

Again, i suggest that you do your own research.. if you're looking for others to do the leg-work, you will likely find issues with 'their' understandings of research versus 'your' desire for particular criteria.. i am skeptical by nature, i make myself aware of the current issues and research, but.. i look beyond the 'known', to the potential.. there is wisdom in refining the 'known', moreso in revealing the unknown.. revealing the unknown is the 'food' for scientific research, some of that 'food' is poison, some is salvation.. keep an open mind and be genuinely curious..

 

Be well..

[Baguakid]

Bob,

 

Can you email or call me please? Check your AOL account.

 

tks,

[rex]

"Neuroplasticity"

 

Documentary on YouTube

(Sorry, can't get embedding to work in the new forum).

 

Articles:

Meditation and Neuroplasticity

 

Meditation Alters Structure of Brain