What happens when you meditate?

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[center888]

Concerning the "workout"/strengthening of memories by repetition:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdgqZb5HMfI

[joeblast]

great reply, freeform

[C T]

great reply, freeform

Just read Freeform's post and the same thought crossed my mind... very accurately written. Well done!

[OneSeeker]

Just read Freeform's post and the same thought crossed my mind... very accurately written. Well done!

 

I am unanimous in that.

[doc benway]

I'm not very up to date with the scientific understanding of these things, but narrowing things down to the brain and neurons, in my opinion, will give a a very dull result... besides, I don't think we really know for sure how thought works, but we can certainly watch and experience it in ourselves.

 

My opinions are based on my own observations of myself and others. As well as from the 'pointing at the moon' of my teachers. These opinions are always subject to change - and although I find them curious and intriguing, I have no interest in their 'value', 'importance' or 'truth' - it's just having fun with our gift known as thought.

 

Thoughts are a certain combination of pictures, sounds and feelings - as well as 'spaces' (think in terms of the space in between words). The specific combination and ratios between these produce all manner of different experiences and states. For example intense fear will have a very certain combination and ratio (different for each person, but with general tendencies) and joy again would have a definite combination... If you tinker with this combination the state will change. (NLP, Cognitive Behavioural Therapies, EMDR and even EFT therapies work on this principle)

 

The spaces are arguably the most important element. Think of the other elements as 'stuff' and the absence of other elements is 'space'. Changing the ratio of stuff to space has a profound change in perception.

 

With meditation we cultivate 'space'. We allow the 'stuff' to come up and we let it pass without turning our attention to it.

 

When we look up at the night sky, we see mostly space and a peppering of stuff (stars)... When we look at very tiny things such as atoms - we see mostly space with a tiny bit of stuff (subatomic particles)... When we look through our mind we see mostly stuff (thoughts) and a tiny bit of space.

 

Ideally our mind should follow nature - we don't want to get rid of all thoughts. What we learn in meditation is to remove the sticky quality of thoughts, or rather we re-train our habit of automatically placing our attention on thoughts - we do this by doing the opposite - we put our attention on the spaces between thoughts.

 

Our awareness (on the conscious level at least) is rather narrow - we have about 5 to 9 bits of information we can hold or attend to consciously at any one moment... if all (or most of) these bits are filled with thought (stuff), we have very little bandwidth to attend to the present!

 

If most of these bits are empty - we're in a deeper state of presence - we're able to attend to reality as it is. The space creates an opportunity for new data to get into our awareness.

 

Most of us have had an experience of being 'in the moment' - it happens during extreme danger (such as a car crash or a fight) it also happens when you perform something excellently. Your mind becomes empty, and your awareness is very bright and focused (not narrowed).

 

This is the state that we cultivate in meditation. We're not trying to rid ourselves of thoughts completely, we're trying to become more present - more present to ourselves and more present to our environment...

 

So in meditation (at least how I go about it at this time) we aim to do the following:

 

1) Firstly balance the ratio of stuff to space. When we first start meditating a whole barrage of thoughts starts pouring into the space we create - this is like a period of clearing.

 

2) Once we have a basic balance to our awareness, we can begin shifting the ratio of space to stuff to fit our needs. (If we want to give a presentation at work we need more stuff, if we want to be present to the Tao we need more space).

 

3) We retrain our habitual tendencies of the movement of our attention. So we can focus on either thought or space by choice rather than through habit, and we can move from one thought to another without having the previous thought colour the new one.

 

4) Then we begin retraining our habitual tendency of focusing on content rather than process (this is beyond the scope of this post - an apple is content, the act of perceiving an apple is process)

 

5) We use the bright and focused awareness to begin to distinguish further subtleties of thought - pictures, sounds, feelings tastes and smells and the sub-distinctions within each of these.

 

And that's just with one of our minds - we have two other 'minds' that are far bigger/broader to explore.

 

Great post!

I'd certainly like to hear more from you on the topic.

[doc benway]

Mind chatting may be called passive, but still, it is something that holds our brain function in a specific manner: it keeps some ideas and thoughts fresh while it leaves others to be forgotten... This is not "modest degree of science", this is logic based on neural network observation made with PET scanner, fMR, not just once but many times in different researches. It may be just a theory, as everything might be in science, but feel free to come up with other (not "modest") scientific evidences to refute what I've written.

 

So then, why does it happen that people become isolated, associative, and nihilist, when they practice meditation for a long time? Why do some people become like this while others don't? You can say "because they don't meditate properly". OK then, what is the difference between proper and improper meditation's effects on the mind-brain continuum?

The "modest degree of science" refers more to trying to apply reproducible data (PET, fMR data and the like) to thought - that is a big leap of faith and quite soft as far as science goes, IMO.

 

"Why are some people isolated, associative, and nihilist when they practice meditation?"

 

Why are some people isolated, associative, and nihilist when they don't practice meditation?

I don't think there is any data that shows a direct association between such traits and meditation.

 

Spend some time with Buddhist monks - some of the most gregarious and loving people I've had the good fortune to meet - certainly not nihilist. It's true that meditation requires a fair amount of time alone without outside stimulation but taking the time to practice does not equate to a person being isolated, IMO.

 

I think you are jumping to conclusions based on limited exposure to meditation or those that practice it.

[Athanor]

I'm not very up to date with the scientific understanding of these things, but narrowing things down to the brain and neurons, in my opinion, will give a a very dull result...

Ignoring material aspects of anything also gives a dull result. I was talking about the effects of meditation on the brain, not on the mind.

 

Our awareness (on the conscious level at least) is rather narrow - we have about 5 to 9 bits of information we can hold or attend to consciously at any one moment... if all (or most of) these bits are filled with thought (stuff), we have very little bandwidth to attend to the present!

I know some other information. Namely, there are 400 billion bits of information perceived from the environment every second awake, and about 2000 bits are which we are aware of. Just think about it. One bit of visible information is not even enough to show one colored pixel - for a 16.7 million color rate you need 32 bits to represent the color of one single pixel. Now imagine that your sight is better than a 1600*1200 dpi true color (16.7 million) screen. If you count a little, this screen needs 61.440.000 bits just to show an image for one moment, and the image before your eyes changes every instant. Even if you're aware only of one tiny dot of the whole image, you still need more than 5 bits (you need 32) to store that information. And you see a much larger area than 1600*1200 pixels, and we didn't say a word about the other senses. So yes, perception consists of a much larger amount of information, and it goes on even if you're not aware of it.

 

I don't think that "space" should be considered as something between "stuff". Just as well as space is a key on the keyboard and not the absence of keys, so is "space" actually an object of mental process, just like "stuff".

Existence and non-existence are not the opposites of each other, but they are complementary - together they form reality; just like matter and space together form the universe.

[Athanor]

The "modest degree of science" refers more to trying to apply reproducible data (PET, fMR data and the like) to thought - that is a big leap of faith and quite soft as far as science goes, IMO.

So you suggest that reproducible data about the organ of thinking should not be applied to the process of thinking? Hm... then how should we know more about thinking, if not this way? I don't think that there is another way beside this modest degree of science. However, we all know how far theories and "jumping into conclusions" can bring us - plasma TV is based on quantum theory, GPS is based on the theory of relativity, for instance... Of course what I've written down here is more like an idea, I wouldn't call it a theory.

 

"Why are some people isolated, associative, and nihilist when they practice meditation?"

Why are some people isolated, associative, and nihilist when they don't practice meditation?

The certain isolated nihilists I mentioned are young people who finished the Buddhist College. But there is a Krishna valley near, there you can find the same type. Oh yes, I know that there are marvelous, sparkling people full of vitality and joy for life, with pure hearts, etc. - they are really admirable. I know that many (maybe most) Buddhist monks are like this. Well maybe we could find something in the way of life of these people, regardless of meditating or not, which could help identify the cause of their nihilism, but it might be off the topic...

 

And what is IMO?

[OneSeeker]

The following doesn't refer to true meditation, but maybe it's the sort of thing you're talking about:

 

Hypnotist Succumbs to His Own Routine

The Daily Telegraph, Jan. 7, 2010

 

A circus performer stood locked in a trance for hours after he accidentally hypnotised himself while practising his routine in a mirror.

 

Sword swallower Hannibal Helmurto, 38, whose real name is Helmut Kichmeier, stood transfixed in front of the mirror for five hours until his wife Joanna found him, The Daily Mail reports.

 

Unable to rouse him, she was forced to phone her husband's mentor, hypnotherapist Dr. Ray Roberts, who trained him on an intensive course recently.

 

Dr. Roberts spoke to Helmut over the phone and he slowly came out of the trance. Helmut said a person under hypnosis only responds to a voice of authority.

 

Joanna, 22, said, "I was really shocked when I found him, he was just like a zombie starring at himself in the mirror. His pupils had gone really small, which is a sign of someone under hypnosis."

 

Helmut, who has performed in the Circus of Horrors for four years, had recently learned how to put himself into a somnambulistic trance - a way of hypnotising yourself - to enable him to swallow multiple swords in the infamous circus.

 

The performer, who is originally from Germany but now lives in London, said, "I underestimated the techniques and how powerful they were. I put myself in a very deep state and lost all sense of time around me."

[Athanor]

The following doesn't refer to true meditation, but maybe it's the sort of thing you're talking about:

 

Hypnotist Succumbs to His Own Routine

I know little about hypnosis, so I can't tell how related this is to what I was talking about. Well, the zombie part is the same

[hagar]

If you meditate for some time, and do it correctly, the language of Science is not the most adequate tool for description.

 

Meditation is not one thing, but one thing is certain: the brain is relevant to meditation as an umbrella is important on a sunny day.

 

I think old Martin here said it best; One thing that is lacking description in western language is the concept of Being (Sein)

 

What has always struck me with our relationship to meditation is the intrinsic distrust we have of our essential nature as awareness. It seems to be located somewhere, yet it is not to be found in the brain, nor in any other part of the body. Instead, the body and brain is contained by awareness, just like anything else. Yet at the same time, we as eneretic beings are points without extention.

 

h

[FrankinAround]

Hmm. if 90% of your thoughts are useless thoughts like worries then what knowledge are you protecting by thinking them? I mean, just because you dont think unconsiously doesnt mean you cant study and know things and think about those things with some awareness in them.

 

Personally, I hate when im around someone trying to chill and my mind starts worrying about stuff. It ruins the moment and the chill. I hate when im afraid to do things I want to do. Ect. So i meditate.

 

For example I used to be on the subway and sometimes freak out if I had no choice but to stare at the persons face infront of me. It would be the freakyest situation ever. That or awkward silences. But after observing people and after practicing and studying my mind now I just kind of go blank. Like ill sit there blank but feel my suroundings and just not care if the person is feeling weird because of awkward silence because im fine. Ill also notice the silence and watch my breath.

 

But sometimes people are like, hey whats with the blank stare? (not so much recently) OR or, I also feel like, dumber. My mind feels like its lagging, not as sharp as it used to be (im 23 years old not an old man) Yet I think that im still smart. Its just a feeling of lag, like before I had a feeling of sharpness and I was thinking all the time yet my sense of self was 100% invested in my thoughts, now I have a feeling of lag yet im like usually knowing that im not my thoughts.

 

Ive had a few breakthrew moments, feeling like your not your mind really puts all your problems in the garbage can. But can anyone help me get rid of this sense of lag in my mind? Should I continue the path which made me feel lag, yet also study math for an hour a day or something to counter its negative effects? (I should note that when it comes to solving problems my mind still works and works fast, its just a feeling of lag, it might not actually be my mind getting dumber its just a lag feeling instead of a sharp/smart feeling)

 

 

Also even though I admit that, its obvious that meditating gives you ALOT of focus power. What do your brain scans say about focus and thats effect on synapses and nerve gaps? I mean if you think about it, if you concentrate all that focus you obtain threw meditating on learning something your going to learn it SUPER fast.

 

What thoughts are being effected here? Thoughts you need or thoughts you dont need? It wouldnt be thoughts you need ofcoarse. Its not like the worries that are 90% of your thoughts are math equations that you need to know how to do. So the thoughts you dont need fade away, and the ones that are usefull probably get stronger just because you can think them with focus. Focus > everything. Focus is way more powerfull then any thought you could forget. (except e= mc squared)

[Athanor]

What has always struck me with our relationship to meditation is the intrinsic distrust we have of our essential nature as awareness. It seems to be located somewhere, yet it is not to be found in the brain, nor in any other part of the body. Instead, the body and brain is contained by awareness, just like anything else. Yet at the same time, we as eneretic beings are points without extention.

The thing that awareness contains the body and the brain, is a mere belief; awareness wasn't found inside the body, but it wasn't found outside either. To claim that our essential nature is awareness is not less ridiculous than saying that we don't have awareness at all. What happens with my essential nature when I fall down in a faint? I don't see how could I be aware then.

These are ideas having no reliable proof. Not sure if they'll ever have... Materialism was an extremity, it failed, now we are heading towards the opposite extremity, we will most likely fail there again. Sooner or later we'll realize that there is no such thing as matter or spirit; there is only one thing what we perceive in different behaviors. Awareness, consciousness, soul, whatever name you call it, it doesn't matter. The point is that reality is just one. If we deal with two realities, like material and spiritual, then one of them must be illusory - one of them is merely the product of the interaction of our perception and reality. But of course, this is also just a theory which has no reliable proof. Not sure if it'll ever have...

The only proof we know we can get for such theories is our own personal experience, but we must remember that our experience might differ from reality.

[hagar]

The thing that awareness contains the body and the brain, is a mere belief; awareness wasn't found inside the body, but it wasn't found outside either. To claim that our essential nature is awareness is not less ridiculous than saying that we don't have awareness at all. What happens with my essential nature when I fall down in a faint? I don't see how could I be aware then.

These are ideas having no reliable proof. Not sure if they'll ever have... Materialism was an extremity, it failed, now we are heading towards the opposite extremity, we will most likely fail there again. Sooner or later we'll realize that there is no such thing as matter or spirit; there is only one thing what we perceive in different behaviors. Awareness, consciousness, soul, whatever name you call it, it doesn't matter. The point is that reality is just one. If we deal with two realities, like material and spiritual, then one of them must be illusory - one of them is merely the product of the interaction of our perception and reality. But of course, this is also just a theory which has no reliable proof. Not sure if it'll ever have...

The only proof we know we can get for such theories is our own personal experience, but we must remember that our experience might differ from reality.

 

Actually, I kinda agree. To that there is no truth to such a claim.

As long as it is not just an attempt to describe how you experience reality, then its just hot air. If you do experience it, even in a glimpse, that's all the proof you need.

 

Remember, we cannot know anything for certain. Actually, the more we practice, the less certain we should become, or the less we "know" for sure. So in the ultimate sense, there is no such thing as a a proof of "true nature" any more than there is a meaninful explanation to the fact that we are born, grow old, and eventually die.

[doc benway]

 

And what is IMO?

In my opinion

[~jK~]

Do you mean I'm wrong? You are free to refute if you can.

 

Bad try at dodging - to me it points toward a line of B.S. that cannot stand on its own.

The Belief system is out the window with most of the other pre-15th century thought processes.

You are simply being asked to justify, hopefully with reputable outsourses, your unsubstantiated claims.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

If we deal with two realities, like material and spiritual, then one of them must be illusory - one of them is merely the product of the interaction of our perception and reality.

It is my understanding that 'material and spiritual' are like 'Yin and Yang', with reality being the interaction of those contrasting principles.. 'Awareness' is a poorly chosen description for reality, 'awareness' is a quality of Consciousness..

 

Be well..

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[Athanor]

In my experience the mind does not work like a computer - I don't see in pixels. One bit in the 7 +or- 2 bits that we have available can be as big or as small as you want... it takes some practice, but you can have one bit engaged in perceiving the space in front, behind, above and below you in one bit... or you could sub divide these into separate bits... you can try it now even - become aware of the space below you, then become aware of the space above you - keep your awareness on both these directions... then combine them - make it just a vertical axis of awareness...

Regardless how the mind works, one bit information is 0 or 1. You can't store different amount of data in the same one bit, you can only store one bit data in one bit. You can only store 0 or 1 in it. You might be able to be aware of all the directions, sounds, whatsoever... but your awareness then spreads to many thousands of bits of information, not just 5 or 7. The amount of data that you're aware of, and the time you can be aware of them, increases with the development of your awareness. That's the point of it I guess.

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited September 26, 2020 by Ocean Form

[hagar]

edit

Edited February 3, 2010 by hagar

[~jK~]

Regardless of how your mind works, an analog system can work with information that is outside the range of 0-1.

(this is how data recovery works)

 

I like to think of my brain as something analog

I agree - Although it seems the human body is DC, in reality the electricital current form that is most dangerous to us is AC as, by being a likeness,it interrupts the body's natural rhythmic cycles - such as heartbeat.

DC can cook us from the natural resistance found in, and on, the body but it only affects us on an amplitude scale.

 

"brain as something analog" is logical.

[Athanor]

Regardless of how your mind works, an analog system can work with information that is outside the range of 0-1.

(this is how data recovery works)

 

I like to think of my brain as something analog

I don't know about analog/digital stuff. The point was that you can't store arbitrary amount of data in one bit.

[Andrei]

The mind works holographic using all the neural network that is available. The logic of the brain is not Boolean (0 or 1 - false or true) but it uses the fuzzy logic, makes decisions using clouds of probabilities in every instant and uses the whole information at a time. Just that this whole process is subconscious, and is filtered only some parts being conscious. Meditation just add into the conscious part of the mind some parts of the unconscious processes - but not all of them.