Breathing and feeling depleted

[Gonzie2Dope]

Hello all,

 

Hopefully some of you can shed light on this issue. I have observed that while doing energy generating exercises I feel tired afterwards when I should feel refreshed. For example, long deep breathing (dantien) makes me relaxed but does not energize me. More rapid forms of breathing have a more energizing effect on me, but nothing dramatic. It's almost as if when I'm doing deep breathing the harder I try the more tired I become. Why is this? The same is true after doing Robert Bruce's NEW system.

[Phoenix]

Hello all,

 

Hopefully some of you can shed light on this issue. I have observed that while doing energy generating exercises I feel tired afterwards when I should feel refreshed. For example, long deep breathing (dantien) makes me relaxed but does not energize me. More rapid forms of breathing have a more energizing effect on me, but nothing dramatic. It's almost as if when I'm doing deep breathing the harder I try the more tired I become. Why is this? The same is true after doing Robert Bruce's NEW system.

I can't tell from your post how long you've been practicing, but assuming you are doing the breathing properly, this may be an adjustment issue. When you first start any new physical activity, whether it's jogging or deep breathing, you'll be more tired until you get used to it.

 

If it's a strong breathing exercise, it's important not to overdo it, by the way, especially at first.

[walkerinthewoods]

I can't tell from your post how long you've been practicing, but assuming you are doing the breathing properly, this may be an adjustment issue. When you first start any new physical activity, whether it's jogging or deep breathing, you'll be more tired until you get used to it.

 

If it's a strong breathing exercise, it's important not to overdo it, by the way, especially at first.

 

I agree. If you are new to this then after awhile of practicing it will be much more energizing.

[Encephalon]

I agree. If you are new to this then after awhile of practicing it will be much more energizing.

 

Exactly. There's a certain amount of muscular effort that goes into breathing deeply that might surprise anyone. It's a totally different experience with toned up intercostals. If you want to make those muscles stronger, get into horse stance and perform a trunk rotation to the degree that you may still breath fully, while holding that static stretch. When you've opened up enough to breath will full and complete inhalations and exhalations, increase the degree of your trunk rotation. Twisting with all the air squeezed out of your lungs doesn't perform the same fuction.

 

Move from Horse stance to a forward lunge when you're ready. Four complete breaths in this twisting lunge position will nourish the kidneys with chi, or so I've read, and it does open up the perineum for lower body energy momement. But the bottom line is it just makes breathing more efficient because you have the strength to make it effortless.

[Non]

conscious deep breathing is sometimes more tiring than unconscious breathing because it's more tense...

[Guest paul walter]

conscious deep breathing is sometimes more tiring than unconscious breathing because it's more tense...

 

 

This is a common 'mistake'. TRUE deep breathing is so deep you simply can't force it to the depths of the lower abdomen--it wouldn't reach the parts we don't usually access if you did it with force/tenseness. It should 'seep' into the cavity and it can only do that if the mind takes its rightful place and gets out of the way. Lying down flat on the ground I find is a good way to get the feel of what is involved in deep breathing--be immobile and simply focus on the lower diaphragm and let the air do its thing-like with a balloon. One should also never be breathing through the mouth or you lose energy. Paul.

Edited February 8, 2010 by paul walter

[Andrei]

Hello all,

 

Hopefully some of you can shed light on this issue. I have observed that while doing energy generating exercises I feel tired afterwards when I should feel refreshed. For example, long deep breathing (dantien) makes me relaxed but does not energize me. More rapid forms of breathing have a more energizing effect on me, but nothing dramatic. It's almost as if when I'm doing deep breathing the harder I try the more tired I become. Why is this? The same is true after doing Robert Bruce's NEW system.

 

Don't worry, it's the effect of serotonine created in the guts entering the blood. It gives you the "sensation" of tiredness. Take a nap like after a good meal and you'll be fine.

[Gonzie2Dope]

Thank you everyone for you insight.

 

. One should also never be breathing through the mouth or you lose energy. Paul.

 

I have heard this too, but I have noticed that as long as you're doing your breathing in through your nose and breathing out to your mouth it has no effect on your energy. I do this while running or jogging. It actually keeps me going longer whereas if I'm just breathing through my nose.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Gonzie2Dope

[soaring crane]

One should also never be breathing through the mouth or you lose energy.

 

Hey Paul - That's a bit of a blanket statement which comes up frequently, but, please explain exactly how one "loses energy" by breathing through the mouth. I believe a lot depends on the individual. There are many many people who simply cannot breathe comfortably through the nose, often it's the exhale they find more strenuous. If that's the case, then it makes good sense, imo, to at least supplement the nose breathing with a slightly open and relaxed mouth. It's far more important to practice in a harmonious, comfortable state than to adhere to dogmatic "rules" for fear of doing something wrong. The anxiety caused by worrying about failure can quickly overcome any benefits of the practice. Would you agree with that?

 

That said, I'd really like to know exactly what Gonzie is doing, from start to finish. Maybe there's a clue in there somewhere. I don't really buy pauschal into the suggestions that feeling depleted after a meditation session is a normal adjustment phase, although, yeah, it is possible. But I've done this with enough people to know that what is being described probably has to do with an incomplete and inefficient routine. It could also be lifestyle-related.

 

Maybe all Gonzie needs is a good slap in the face

[Trunk]

.. but, please explain exactly how one "loses energy" by breathing through the mouth. I believe a lot depends on the individual. There are many many people who simply cannot breathe comfortably through the nose, often it's the exhale they find more strenuous. If that's the case, then it makes good sense, imo, to at least supplement the nose breathing with a slightly open and relaxed mouth. It's far more important to practice in a harmonious, ..

Basically agreed.

 

I've been noticing lately that if I have some stored tension~heat that I want to expel that it best comes out the mouth. If I am mostly harmonized then both in~out through the nose is fine. My comfort level naturally guides me to which is more appropriate... though I start with the inhale through the nose for most things that I'm doing.

 

- Trunk

[Aetherous]

Hmm...losing energy...

 

We are conduits. Sometimes it's good to lose our energy, so that new energy can come in.

 

I don't think being tired is a sign of being depeleted of energy. It's just a sign of needing rest and relaxation.

[Guest paul walter]

Hey Paul - That's a bit of a blanket statement which comes up frequently, but, please explain exactly how one "loses energy" by breathing through the mouth.

 

 

Yes, agreed but was trying to illustrate the ideal/proper circumstances for meditative breathing. I think it's more a case of the mind being calmed before even attempting any type of meditative (or other come to think of it) excercises. Also the practitioner should be using the mind to control the heart rate which is essential in preventing any 'panic' feelings within the body as it slows down. When that connection isn' maintained I think there can be a feeling of 'panic'/tension in the body and the mouth is the quickest way of releasing that tension. It's possible to breath out through the mouth without too much 'loss' of focus, energy or concentrated intent probably but I for one feel weaker/less focused and lose the looping/continuity effect of circular nasal breathing. Of course if you have a blcked nose.... One thing about having a blocked nose is it should make you breath even slower, leading to often deeper diaphragmatic expansion, if you can get past the idea that the nose can't do the job properly.

 

 

 

I believe a lot depends on the individual. There are many many people who simply cannot breathe comfortably through the nose, often it's the exhale they find more strenuous. If that's the case, then it makes good sense, imo, to at least supplement the nose breathing with a slightly open and relaxed mouth. It's far more important to practice in a harmonious, comfortable state than to adhere to dogmatic "rules" for fear of doing something wrong. The anxiety caused by worrying about failure can quickly overcome any benefits of the practice. Would you agree with that?

 

 

 

Yes, again you're right. Still, the existing 'chi' breathing recommendations exist for good reason.

 

 

 

 

 

That said, I'd really like to know exactly what Gonzie is doing, from start to finish. Maybe there's a clue in there somewhere. I don't really buy pauschal into the suggestions that feeling depleted after a meditation session is a normal adjustment phase, although, yeah, it is possible. But I've done this with enough people to know that what is being described probably has to do with an incomplete and inefficient routine. It could also be lifestyle-related.

 

Maybe all Gonzie needs is a good slap in the face

 

 

 

 

Well, that also was my first thought as it sometimes is when simple points of practice that others should be able to sit with and work out for themselves seem to be so beyond them. Yeah, I figure it's usually something people have simply neglected or glossed over too quickly out of lack of attention when these questions come up. Paul

Edited February 9, 2010 by paul walter

[Taomeow]

From a trustworthy teacher:

 

most people don't EXHALE properly, i.e. completely. Most problems, and more serious ones, arise from improper exhale. His advice: learn to exhale completely before attempting any other breath control moves.

[Encephalon]

From a trustworthy teacher:

 

most people don't EXHALE properly, i.e. completely. Most problems, and more serious ones, arise from improper exhale. His advice: learn to exhale completely before attempting any other breath control moves.

 

You don't play a brass or woodwind instrument, do you?

[Taomeow]

You don't play a brass or woodwind instrument, do you?

 

Didgeridoo... why?

[Ya Mu]

Hmm...losing energy...

 

We are conduits. Sometimes it's good to lose our energy, so that new energy can come in.

 

I don't think being tired is a sign of being depeleted of energy. It's just a sign of needing rest and relaxation.

Rest is the great restorer. But it seems that a lot of people think they are resting and they are not. Rest does not include watching television or cruising the internet.

 

From a trustworthy teacher:

 

most people don't EXHALE properly, i.e. completely. Most problems, and more serious ones, arise from improper exhale. His advice: learn to exhale completely before attempting any other breath control moves.

 

This is the key to proper breath.

 

 

To the OP:

I teach a spiral restorative qigong which I think would help you. If you are interested you can learn this in one of my workshops.

Have you tried simply putting the awareness on dan tian while breathing naturally? You may wish to try this: on the out breath use your diaphragm to expel ALL the air (full contraction) but do not put any focus on the inhale, just relax and let the in breath fill naturally. Notice that when you do this air comes rushing in to fill with more velocity.

[Encephalon]

Didgeridoo... why?

 

Most of us band nerds were introduced early on to some advanced breathing techniques that resemble the diaphragmatic movements of some spiritual teachings. We used to work on full exhalation a lot when I was a kid in drum and bugle corps.

[Phoenix]

From a trustworthy teacher:

 

most people don't EXHALE properly, i.e. completely. Most problems, and more serious ones, arise from improper exhale. His advice: learn to exhale completely before attempting any other breath control moves.

I haven't seen this particular technique done. Is the advice to exhale completely ONCE before a breathing set, or before EVERY breath? How forceful is the exhale?

 

I practice a form of Tibetan yogic breathing that includes a very forceful full exhale, and I'd like to add a word of caution for the original poster. Too many complete exhales, especially at first, will make you feel pretty hungover. Limit it to three per day for the first few days, then *slowly* work your way up if fully exhaling becomes part of your practice.

 

One other thing... It's really best to learn physical techniques from a teacher. Even something that sounds simple, like the instruction to "exhale completely," can mean different things in different traditions, and requires a visual transmission plus correction from the teacher to be effective.

[Encephalon]

Rest is the great restorer. But it seems that a lot of people think they are resting and they are not. Rest does not include watching television or cruising the internet.

 

 

 

This is the key to proper breath.

 

 

To the OP:

I teach a spiral restorative qigong which I think would help you. If you are interested you can learn this in one of my workshops.

Have you tried simply putting the awareness on dan tian while breathing naturally? You may wish to try this: on the out breath use your diaphragm to expel ALL the air (full contraction) but do not put any focus on the inhale, just relax and let the in breath fill naturally. Notice that when you do this air comes rushing in to fill with more velocity.

 

This is loosely related to the practice of turning your body into a "chi vacuum" as taught by Chu nei kung. It's the opposite of forcing chi into the body with aggressive "fire" breathing.

[Trunk]

To add to the many good answers already...

.. For example, long deep breathing (dantien) makes me relaxed but does not energize me. More rapid forms of breathing have a more energizing effect on me, ..

Some practices are energizing, some are soothing.

 

Example. Sometimes I do standing practices in the morning because I feel very strong afterwards and more ready for the day. Then stretching at night, to relax in prep for sleep. Similar things with different breathing practices, as you've noticed.

[soaring crane]

You may wish to try this: on the out breath use your diaphragm to expel ALL the air (full contraction) but do not put any focus on the inhale, just relax and let the in breath fill naturally. Notice that when you do this air comes rushing in to fill with more velocity.

 

Inhale = Yang becomes Yin (passive)

Exhale = Yin becomes Yang (active)

 

The first thing we learn.... Every breath is a transformation on so many levels.

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

Most of us band nerds were introduced early on to some advanced breathing techniques that resemble the diaphragmatic movements of some spiritual teachings. We used to work on full exhalation a lot when I was a kid in drum and bugle corps.

 

Good for you. I played the piano as a kid... I'm sure it would have been beneficial to breathe properly while doing that too, but nobody taught me.

 

I haven't seen this particular technique done. Is the advice to exhale completely ONCE before a breathing set, or before EVERY breath? How forceful is the exhale?

 

At every natural breath, and not forceful at all for this purpose, but simply long enough -- twice as long as the inhale. Counting can help in the beginning. Whatever the duration of one's natural inhale, a mindful exhale should follow, twice as long.

 

I practice a form of Tibetan yogic breathing that includes a very forceful full exhale, and I'd like to add a word of caution for the original poster. Too many complete exhales, especially at first, will make you feel pretty hungover. Limit it to three per day for the first few days, then *slowly* work your way up if fully exhaling becomes part of your practice.

 

One other thing... It's really best to learn physical techniques from a teacher. Even something that sounds simple, like the instruction to "exhale completely," can mean different things in different traditions, and requires a visual transmission plus correction from the teacher to be effective.

In most cases, yes. But we're talking natural breathing with mindfulness added on the exhale, this is safe enough if "don't force it" is remembered. Of course there's scores of breathing techniques that can make one pretty loopy. (A psychedelic experience can be induced by the Seven Locks technique, e.g., and fast -- within a couple of minutes. This is an example of a "don't try it without a teacher" method.)

[Ya Mu]

Inhale = Yang becomes Yin (passive)

Exhale = Yin becomes Yang (active)

 

The first thing we learn.... Every breath is a transformation on so many levels.

 

I actually do not put much emphasis on breath. What I have found is that if one involves the mind to control the breath then the qi loses its natural flow. I have also found that the breath changes with the natural flow, so I allow the qi to control the breath versus attempting to control the qi with the breath. Not really fond of most breath control techniques for this reason; I use only 2 Taoist breath techniques under special circumstances.

[Guest sykkelpump]

I actually do not put much emphasis on breath. What I have found is that if one involves the mind to control the breath then the qi loses its natural flow. I have also found that the breath changes with the natural flow, so I allow the qi to control the breath versus attempting to control the qi with the breath. Not really fond of most breath control techniques for this reason; I use only 2 Taoist breath techniques under special circumstances.

 

This is my experience to.I do practice anapanasati(breathing meditation)but I dont controll the breathing.its natural.

[soaring crane]

I actually do not put much emphasis on breath. What I have found is that if one involves the mind to control the breath then the qi loses its natural flow. I have also found that the breath changes with the natural flow, so I allow the qi to control the breath versus attempting to control the qi with the breath. Not really fond of most breath control techniques for this reason; I use only 2 Taoist breath techniques under special circumstances.

 

Hey Ya Mu - You've developed the ability to practice that way, over many years. In practice, I don't force anything, either, but that's because I've practiced so long that my movements and breath harmonize (or harmorize, as Yang Jwing Ming says, lol) without interference or strain on my part. They wander around a bit, too, not always in synch, of course not. But the basic principle remains, it just practices itself after a while, with its own improvisations.

 

I'm very strict with people in my groups that they should not force the breath. We do exercises, on the "gymnastic level", just to get the motors running, so to speak, but during actual practice, nobody should be hung up too strictly on controlling the breath.