expectations creating our sensations...

[elmer]

psychologists have known for some time that our expectations can greatly influence, if not create, our sensations. they did an experiment with wine aficionados. they used food coloring and changed white wine into red. they also took cheap, crappy wine and packaged it in beautiful and expensive bottles. In both cases, the aficionados described either how exquisite the crushed red grapes were, etc/etc... or how fine the quality of wine was...

 

as i read many posts describing various experiences (both physical and mental) with certain meditative practices, links to texts or masters that describe the various sensations or "expected" psychic sensations... a lot of me wonders whether or not we are in a sense, creating our sensations...

 

anyone else thought of it that way?

 

here's a link to the article that describes the psychology behind it...

 

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/02/24/grape_expectations/

Edited February 10, 2010 by elmer

[Aetherous]

I think what many experience are real effects, most of which are undesirable. To achieve the desirable, the best way is in creating that which we want to cultivate.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes, this is a big issue for me. It's very hard to find people who will teach a technique, but not get too detailed into the kind of results it produces.

 

On the one hand, it's good to have markers to know when you are making progress.

 

On the other, it's hard to know if these bits of knowledge are defining your experiences.

 

I like to learn a technique, save the writing or teaching somewhere, do it for a while, then go back and read later sections of it.

 

This is also one of the reasons why I avoid certain topics, like astral projection. When I get around to astral projecting myself, I want to have my own experiences and keep them as independent from others as I can possibly get. But at the same time, I need to learn a bit about the topic before I get started (or do I....? another question for another topic ) so I gotta pick and choose which info to risk it on.

 

When I am sharing methods with other people, I am very careful to just share the method, and not talk too much about my own personal experiences, unless directly asked or if it comes up in a conversation based on them sharing theirs, simply because I want them to experience stuff on their own.

 

HOWEVER, at the same time, it is very possible to CAUSE certain effects simply through repetition. Franz Bardon's system in particular focuses on this particular bit of "universal law". By performing a certain ritual or visualization intently enough for a long enough time, you build up a certain amount of "force" behind it, and that force helps gives enough energy to the magical operation to cause the desired effect. For beginners it takes a long time to get used to working with willpower like this, but for an advanced practitioner it's quite easy.

 

But then it leads us back to the original question: is there ANYTHING outside of this universe that ISN'T within the realms of our expectations?

 

"When layer is put upon layer, when all is a facade, within a web of deception; the truth is what you make it." -R.A. Salvatore

 

So, ya know, stuff to think about I guess.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[elmer]

I think what many experience are real effects, most of which are undesirable. To achieve the desirable, the best way is in creating that which we want to cultivate.

 

the effects can definitely be "real" in the sense that the brain experiences them that way. as to whether or not they are desirable, would depend on who's judging... i just found the article, so i'll edit my original post and include a link, in case anyone's interested...

[elmer]

Yes, this is a big issue for me. It's very hard to find people who will teach a technique, but not get too detailed into the kind of results it produces.

 

On the one hand, it's good to have markers to know when you are making progress.

 

On the other, it's hard to know if these bits of knowledge are defining your experiences.

 

I like to learn a technique, save the writing or teaching somewhere, do it for a while, then go back and read later sections of it.

 

This is also one of the reasons why I avoid certain topics, like astral projection. When I get around to astral projecting myself, I want to have my own experiences and keep them as independent from others as I can possibly get. But at the same time, I need to learn a bit about the topic before I get started (or do I....? another question for another topic ) so I gotta pick and choose which info to risk it on.

 

When I am sharing methods with other people, I am very careful to just share the method, and not talk too much about my own personal experiences, unless directly asked or if it comes up in a conversation based on them sharing theirs, simply because I want them to experience stuff on their own.

 

HOWEVER, at the same time, it is very possible to CAUSE certain effects simply through repetition. Franz Bardon's system in particular focuses on this particular bit of "universal law". By performing a certain ritual or visualization intently enough for a long enough time, you build up a certain amount of "force" behind it, and that force helps gives enough energy to the magical operation to cause the desired effect. For beginners it takes a long time to get used to working with willpower like this, but for an advanced practitioner it's quite easy.

 

But then it leads us back to the original question: is there ANYTHING outside of this universe that ISN'T within the realms of our expectations?

 

"When layer is put upon layer, when all is a facade, within a web of deception; the truth is what you make it." -R.A. Salvatore

 

So, ya know, stuff to think about I guess.

 

 

i really like the quote by salvatore... thanks!

 

if certain effects are consistently caused through repetition of the exercise, then that's a good exercise (for me!). however, if a majority of us get the SAME effects without knowing ahead of time what those effects are to be, then that seems a bit more... "sincere." so much of internal martial art's visualization, verbage, and philosophy will indubitably influence your experiences. but one can argue, that's what makes it "what it is," and that's what makes it fun.

[Marblehead]

I agree. Our expectations will, in part, determine the sensations we have regarding any given experience.

 

And I suppose that is why I have been told that I should never place my expectations on others or on possible events of the future. It is only without expectations that we can fully experience the 'now' moments of our life.

 

Peace & Love!

[elmer]

I agree. Our expectations will, in part, determine the sensations we have regarding any given experience.

 

And I suppose that is why I have been told that I should never place my expectations on others or on possible events of the future. It is only without expectations that we can fully experience the 'now' moments of our life.

 

Peace & Love!

 

i've also been told not to "expect" in order to realize the "now" moments of our life. but part of me feels that our brains are to a certain extent wired to "expect." knowledge and wisdom entail the concept of "expectation" or... causality. when "A" happens, expect "B." or, when learning new concepts or labels, we expect them to present in a consistent manner, so that we can act accordingly/appropriately in the future. however, i absolutely agree that understanding how expectations affect not only our sensations, but OTHER people's sensations, will lead to greater "mental freedom."

 

meditation helps in shining a spotlight on my "pre-determined expectations." do you have any specific exercises (mental or physical) that help you with this?

[Marblehead]

i've also been told not to "expect" in order to realize the "now" moments of our life. but part of me feels that our brains are to a certain extent wired to "expect." knowledge and wisdom entail the concept of "expectation" or... causality. when "A" happens, expect "B." or, when learning new concepts or labels, we expect them to present in a consistent manner, so that we can act accordingly/appropriately in the future. however, i absolutely agree that understanding how expectations affect not only our sensations, but OTHER people's sensations, will lead to greater "mental freedom."

 

meditation helps in shining a spotlight on my "pre-determined expectations." do you have any specific exercises (mental or physical) that help you with this?

 

Yeah, I agree that for most of us our brain is wired so that if A happens we automatically expect B to soon follow.

 

In fact, much of Taoism is based on the concept of 'cause and effect'. We are oftentimes told by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu this when they speak to the idea that 'if you do this, that will likely happen'.

 

I agree, meditation does help a lot in clearing one's mind so that they can be more open for new experiences.

 

I really don't have any established practices. When my body gets to feeling weak I will start an exercise session with my weights. It normally takes about two months to build my strength and endurance back up to where I like it.

 

Meditation is the same way. I can go for quite a while without need for meditation but on occasion I feel my mind needs to be cleared so I will work on that until my mind stops playing tricks on me.

 

I guess it is up to the individual. We each have our own way of maintaining our body and mind. Some work at it regularly and others don't need anything at all.

 

Regarding suggestions to others, I generally make a cop-out and just say that we each need to find what works for us.

 

Peace & Love!

[Aetherous]

the effects can definitely be "real" in the sense that the brain experiences them that way. as to whether or not they are desirable, would depend on who's judging... i just found the article, so i'll edit my original post and include a link, in case anyone's interested...

 

No, I meant physically real.

 

But maybe we're talking about different things. What specific experiences are you referring to?

[elmer]

Yeah, I agree that for most of us our brain is wired so that if A happens we automatically expect B to soon follow.

 

In fact, much of Taoism is based on the concept of 'cause and effect'. We are oftentimes told by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu this when they speak to the idea that 'if you do this, that will likely happen'.

 

I agree, meditation does help a lot in clearing one's mind so that they can be more open for new experiences.

 

I really don't have any established practices. When my body gets to feeling weak I will start an exercise session with my weights. It normally takes about two months to build my strength and endurance back up to where I like it.

 

Meditation is the same way. I can go for quite a while without need for meditation but on occasion I feel my mind needs to be cleared so I will work on that until my mind stops playing tricks on me.

 

I guess it is up to the individual. We each have our own way of maintaining our body and mind. Some work at it regularly and others don't need anything at all.

 

Regarding suggestions to others, I generally make a cop-out and just say that we each need to find what works for us.

Peace & Love!

 

 

I like your approach... Usually we don't question the "conditionality" of things unless they bother us. So, perhaps it's better to just "live life" with the understanding that you can always change your experience (when needed) by understanding what role your perception is playing in determining how you feel.

[elmer]

No, I meant physically real.

 

But maybe we're talking about different things. What specific experiences are you referring to?

 

can something be physically unreal?

 

staying true to the original theme of this question, by experiences, I mean any sensations that one may have while practicing...

[Aetherous]

staying true to the original theme of this question, by experiences, I mean any sensations that one may have while practicing...

 

That's what I mean, as well. People who practice, experience real (meaning it's not only their subjective experience, but could be tested objectively) physical (chemical) sensations.

 

But like I said, you might want to be a little bit more specific about what type of sensations or experiences...

[de_paradise]

Theres a few levels of understanding here.

 

Like energetic experiences that are unexpected, unintended, and not much to do with a major result like "astral travel" For examples, kriyas, where your muscle suddenly palpitates or skin and flesh jumps in a very unnatural way. Not fun if you are trying to write a math exam.

 

Theres the level of some people expecting a result and then hallucinating it or creating it with self suggestion that it is perceived as "real". Example: The new agers who interpret everything as a major spiritual event. I notice there is always an element of this even among the skeptic type or sincere cultivators because when you have an open mind and also no way to validate the event, there is always a margin for this kind of error.

 

But another level is that intent is indeed needed to activate certain effects, such as projecting qi. The higer level a cultivator you are, the more your expectations can create events.

 

Another level of understanding is that we are merely some kind of holographic projections, congealed thought, we are mind. The interactions in the realm of form, which we typically call reality, is merely thought, even though its very rare to find someone who can perceive that its just a big illusion of energy interplay. So no matter how confused we are about what is merely "illusion" or "reality" created by expectations, we are still not scratching the surface.

[elmer]

ok. i don't know if anyone is reading this anymore, but i've come to the conclusion that expectations creating our sensations isn't such a "bad thing" entirely.

 

so what if our expectations make us think that white wine taste like red? or cheap wine taste expensive?

 

or...

 

our expectations make us feel "bubbling sensations at the soles of our feet," "tingling at the top of our head," "external energies or forces moving us around like rag dolls or marionettes?"

 

well... i do have an issue with the last one.... lol.

 

anyways, unexpected things can happen when we allow our expectations (albeit, faulty/misinformed/deluded) to create our sensations... sometimes they can make us psycho, but other times it can make cruddy situations feel better, annoyances become opportunities... etc.... etc... you get the picture.

 

so maybe, sometimes the "true nature" of something isn't necessarily that something, but actually how it interacts with you and how you experience it.

[elmer]

ok. i don't know if anyone is reading this anymore, but i've come to the conclusion that expectations creating our sensations isn't such a "bad thing" entirely.

 

so what if our expectations make us think that white wine taste like red? or cheap wine taste expensive?

 

or...

 

our expectations make us feel "bubbling sensations at the soles of our feet," "tingling at the top of our head," "external energies or forces moving us around like rag dolls or marionettes?"

 

well... i do have an issue with the last one.... lol.

 

anyways, unexpected things can happen when we allow our expectations (albeit, faulty/misinformed/deluded) to create our sensations... sometimes they can make us psycho, but other times it can make cruddy situations feel better, annoyances become opportunities... etc.... etc... you get the picture.

 

so maybe, sometimes the "true nature" of something isn't necessarily that something, but actually how it interacts with you, how you experience it, and how it changes you...

Edited February 26, 2010 by elmer

[Gerard]

as i read many posts describing various experiences (both physical and mental) with certain meditative practices, links to texts or masters that describe the various sensations or "expected" psychic sensations... a lot of me wonders whether or not we are in a sense, creating our sensations...

 

Far from that. They are real but impermanent; hence hard core Buddhists (and others I guess) do not give a rat's backside about them.

[Marblehead]

Far from that. They are real but impermanent; hence hard core Buddhists (and others I guess) do not give a rat's backside about them.

 

Hehehe. You can add Marblehead in with that list of people.

 

Peace & Love!

[elmer]

Far from that. They are real but impermanent; hence hard core Buddhists (and others I guess) do not give a rat's backside about them.

 

I didn't mean to infer that if we create these sensations, they are not real... just because we create these sensations doesn't preclude their reality...

 

We all know that buddhists do care about things, even though EVERYTHING is impermanent. So impermanence isn't the reason why they don't give a rats a** about it. It's the "chasing" that they try to avoid.... I'd say it's healthy to use these sensations as possible indicators of progress or change, but just don't "chase" after it and let whatever happens, happen.

Edited February 27, 2010 by elmer

[rain]

Far from that. They are real but impermanent; hence hard core Buddhists (and others I guess) do not give a rat's backside about them.

 

perhaps the question "do *we*/*I* create them?" is as malplaced as "how do we open chakras"? or "How do I run chi"?

 

The more *I*cling the more *I*have A perspective. What is the difference between having a perspective and having an opinion. lol.?

[3bob]

...btw, are hard core anything's permanent?

[elmer]

Is nature static?

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

nature is not static, but in order for us to develop knowledge we build/base ideas off of concepts that are "static" or, we hope, unchanging. without that, we have no way of justifying our ideas.

 

so i guess, in my practices/life, i'll just have to decide which of those experiences/thoughts simply justify themselves by their own virtue, vs. those experiences/thoughts that i need to "investigate" further...

 

as i write this, i'm reminded of that psychological dichotomy of doing "what your heart tells you to," vs. "what your brain tells you to."

[Gerard]

I didn't mean to infer that if we create these sensations, they are not real... just because we create these sensations doesn't preclude their reality...

 

We all know that buddhists do care about things, even though EVERYTHING is impermanent. So impermanence isn't the reason why they don't give a rats a** about it. It's the "chasing" that they try to avoid.... I'd say it's healthy to use these sensations as possible indicators of progress or change, but just don't "chase" after it and let whatever happens, happen.

 

Start meditating and come back to see if you think the same (you might or you might not). This chat is an eternal circle.

 

 

...btw, are hard core anything's permanent?

 

Then by following that logic, are the Four Noble Truths permanent?

 

Please, don't take writen statements things literally.

[elmer]

Start meditating and come back to see if you think the same (you might or you might not). This chat is an eternal circle.

 

A bit presumptuous assuming another person doesn't meditate because they don't agree with you. Let's not mention the "a" word, ok, let's do... attachment.

 

And I'm not sure what an eternal circle is (as opposed to a temporary circle), but for me, this chat is like any other: an opportunity to learn about ourselves and our practices from those that think like us, as well as those who don't.

[~jK~]

[Marblehead]

Even Buddha said - over 2,000 years ago: "Your Desires will be the source of your failures"

 

You've got to learn to be the master of your own mind before you can see the true realities that govern you as a person.

 

I fully accept this as a truth.

 

Peace & Love!