New Mexico Daoist Workshops - DAOIST IMMERSION - LIVIA KOHN

[Eternal_Student]

Yeah, but her practice outline in the seminar is extremely weak. I've paid up to 500.00 for one exercise set but that was in a private session and the content's quality was known prior to learning.

 

Seminars should be an "Introduction" to meet the Master/Teacher and to decide if you want to further your study with that person (IMO) so they should be low cost. After that, then go for it. What can you learn in a weekend for 850.00 when the content is outlined as it is? I came up in the early 80s.. things were different back then. Accessible and good quality. Today there's quality out there but it's few and far between.

 

Re: Respect Elders. Respect is one thing, but don't get down on ppl for questioning a 850.00 seminar. People have the right to question, especially in this economy.

 

 

question away my friend, question away. that's why I was trying to tell you more about her, since I have direct experience...

 

totally agree about the economy. the going rate is $75-100 per acupuncture treatment.

i have a weekly rate of $30 and a top rate of $60 for 1.3 hr intake + appointment.

feel you on both accounts!!!

 

 

[Sunya]

That said, her curriculum does seem to include various energetic practices and is not just a weekend seminar...it's for a whole WEEK. So, $850 is not outrageously excessive for that (at least here in the States). In fact, considering that it includes room, board, tuition & 2 textbooks - all for just $106.25/day - that's actually a great deal! I might even consider going now just for the hell of it at that rate, lol.

 

Vortex, I agree. I think people aren't thinking clearly. It's not just a weekend.. its 8 days for $850 (just counted on my hands to make sure, you have to include the 1st day too so can't just substract! lol) which includes room and board, that's not bad at all.. consider that Kunlun seminars cost 300 for 2 days and do not include room and board.

 

I found a shot of the national forest that it's in -- looks a very Daoist landscape

Edited February 12, 2010 by mikaelz

[Sunya]

Laughing my butt off!!!

 

 

who are you to laugh!! bahahhaaaa

[ralis]

Hmmm ... Daoism, in my poor and paltry experience, definitely has a "world view", it has very well articulated "behavioral guidelines", and it is intrinsically rooted in "cosmic thinking".

 

Why do you feel the need to be critical of someone who has done the hard yards in both practical and academic achievement?

 

Behavior in what way? Are there Taoist commandments? Thous shalt not.............!

 

All this does is to further conditioning!

 

Taoism should be transmitted experientialy. If one wants to read about it, fine. However, don't confuse both as the same.

 

What does proper cooking have to do with the Taoist path? I have never seen a Taoist cookbook! Classes in Chinese cooking? Just more cultural baggage that the workshop participants will carry around!

 

ralis

Edited February 12, 2010 by ralis

[ralis]

 

Re: Respect Elders. Respect is one thing, but don't get down on ppl for questioning a 850.00 seminar. People have the right to question, especially in this economy.

 

That is a lot of money these days! These teachers need to realize that respect is earned and not automatically given! Seekers too often just throw their money around, hoping to find something!

 

Just because she has some recognition in certain circles, means very little!

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

Vortex, I agree. I think people aren't thinking clearly. It's not just a weekend.. its 8 days for $850 (just counted on my hands to make sure, you have to include the 1st day too so can't just substract! lol) which includes room and board, that's not bad at all.. consider that Kunlun seminars cost 300 for 2 days and do not include room and board.

 

I found a shot of the national forest that it's in -- looks a very Daoist landscape

 

Exactly what are the criteria for defining a Taoist landscape? :lol:

 

ralis

[Apech]

I think the acknowledgements in this book give some idea of who she has worked with. Academically Livia Kohn seems top notch and I would have thought someone that you could learn a lot from.

 

Livia Kohn book

 

Do your own practice, learn from others, respect learning, don't bother with gurus or siddhis, find out for yourself ... but take the best from everything you come across ... that's my approach.

[Guest paul walter]

It's funny how harshly total strangers are judged by people here.

 

 

 

And scary too. For anyone not to know who Livia Kohn is is telling in itself. Last year her introductory book on Taoism was publised and in all likelyhood will be the go-to book for those looking for an intro to the subject in english. It's a very interesting book, covers many themes and bases. Along with her other research that continue to fill in serious gaps in the documented knowledge base of taoism in english she's giving Thomas Cleary a run for his money in the quality/quantity stakes. I think it's only intellectual and emotional immaturity that can provoke such responses as we've seen here. Most 'searchers' lack the kind of humility and gratitude that could help them immensely in 'finding' themselves. Often responses like we've seen just seem to be motivated out of desire and frustration. Paul.

[ralis]

Here is a link to student feedback on Prof. Kohn at Boston University.

 

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=149470

 

ralis

[Guest paul walter]

Here is a link to student feedback on Prof. Kohn at Boston University.

 

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=149470

 

ralis

 

Kids rating their 'masters'--perhaps not the best way to mediate the thinking seen on this thread. Paul.

Edited February 13, 2010 by paul walter

[ralis]

And scary too. For anyone not to know who Livia Kohn is is telling in itself. Last year her introductory book on Taoism was publised and in all likelyhood will be the go-to book for those looking for an intro to the subject in english. It's a very interesting book, covers many themes and bases. Along with her other research that continue to fill in serious gaps in the documented knowledge base of taoism in english she's giving Thomas Cleary a run for his money in the quality/quantity stakes. I think it's only intellectual and emotional immaturity that can provoke such responses as we've seen here. Most 'searchers' lack the kind of humility and gratitude that could help them immensely in 'finding' themselves. Often responses like we've seen just seem to be motivated out of desire and frustration. Paul.

 

I have not engaged in ad hominem attacks, just a critique of what the 850.00 is for. She lives in Fla. and I wonder if she has a center where she teaches on a regular basis. Taking one class is an easier way to know what someone may have to offer. Also travel costs need to be factored into the cost of this retreat.

 

Is she a lineage holder? Who are her teachers?

 

So far the apologists on this thread think she is wonderful, because she is wonderful?

 

 

 

ralis

[Guest paul walter]

I have not engaged in ad hominem attacks, just a critique of what the 850.00 is for. She lives in Fla. and I wonder if she has a center where she teaches on a regular basis. Taking one class is an easier way to know what someone may have to offer. Also travel costs need to be factored into the cost of this retreat.

 

Is she a lineage holder? Who are her teachers?

 

So far the apologists on this thread think she is wonderful, because she is wonderful?

 

 

 

ralis

 

She is an academic who is not looking for pupils. She is not what you think you need-a master who will answer for your desires. The workshops seem very sensible and fill in gaps in practical knowledge that no-one else seems to be teaching. The cost seems reasonable. Apologists-for what! There's nothing to apologise for--all this has been cooked up (as usual)in the minds of a few young boys on the prowel for someone who will make their taoist fantasies/life inadequacies be answered and vanish in turn. Take a step back. Not everyone who is interested in taoist stuff needs to be perfect and/or the master of the universe. Take a breath and re-read the syllabus--it's not that mysterious- it can be taught by someone not on Wudang mountain. Damn those Hong Kong films for creating these expectations and mess . Paul.

[Aetherous]

just a critique of what the 850.00 is for.

 

Vortex said,

 

it's for a whole WEEK. So, $850 is not outrageously excessive for that (at least here in the States). In fact, considering that it includes room, board, tuition & 2 textbooks - all for just $106.25/day - that's actually a great deal!

 

That is totally a good deal. It's basically the same price as taking a vacation anywhere (hotels are usually 100 bucks)...except that you are learning Taoist stuff at the same time.

 

So, the expenses are completely justified.

 

These teachers need to realize that respect is earned and not automatically given!

 

They also need to know that some people will never be respectful, no matter how much time and effort you've put into what you teach.

 

Oh well.

[Baguakid]

No No No... There are Alchemy/Qigong exercises I would gladly pay 850.00 for if I could learn the exercise and the theory behind it. One on one with my teacher. Don't have any problem with that.

 

What I don't want to do spend 8 days in a Kumbaya setting for a possiblity that I might learn a little something, maybe. I've been doing this stuff for too long for that.

[Stigweard]

Behavior in what way? Are there Taoist commandments? Thous shalt not.............!

 

Let's start with 三寶, Sānbǎo, the Three Treasures:

 

我 有三寶，持而保之。一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。慈故能勇﹔

 

Tao has three treasures which he guards and cherishes.

The first is called compassion;

the second is called economy;

the third is called humility.

 

 

What does proper cooking have to do with the Taoist path? I have never seen a Taoist cookbook! Classes in Chinese cooking? Just more cultural baggage that the workshop participants will carry around!

 

ralis

The five elemental cycle, Wuxing, is intimately utilized in Daoist lifestyle.

 

 

The tastes and whether the food is warming/cooling, damp/dry, etc. are used in conjunction with the seasons and with the individuals internal energy. Never seen a Daoist cookbook? Well you have now:

 

 

The Tao of Nutrition - Maoshing Ni

 

[ralis]

She is an academic who is not looking for pupils. She is not what you think you need-a master who will answer for your desires. The workshops seem very sensible and fill in gaps in practical knowledge that no-one else seems to be teaching. The cost seems reasonable. Apologists-for what! There's nothing to apologise for--all this has been cooked up (as usual)in the minds of a few young boys on the prowel for someone who will make their taoist fantasies/life inadequacies be answered and vanish in turn. Take a step back. Not everyone who is interested in taoist stuff needs to be perfect and/or the master of the universe. Take a breath and re-read the syllabus--it's not that mysterious- it can be taught by someone not on Wudang mountain. Damn those Hong Kong films for creating these expectations and mess . Paul.

 

I think you are overreacting to my critique. I can be overly academic myself. Yes, there is a place for that. However, most do not distinguish between academic and experiential. Consumerism in general is what creates these type of venues.Most people can't afford to shell out that much cash.

 

Most who attend these workshops, are well off consumers!

 

ralis

[Guest paul walter]

I think you are overreacting to my critique. I can be overly academic myself. Yes, there is a place for that. However, most do not distinguish between academic and experiential. Consumerism in general is what creates these type of venues.Most people can't afford to shell out that much cash.

 

Most who attend these workshops, are well off consumers!

 

ralis

 

Well, if that's your main gripe I can sympathise with that to a great extent. The 'well off' get it all--and change it all! As can the 'educated'. But I think this is a much more modest affair and, well, reasonable (though I myself couldn't afford it). Don't get pissed off and confuse issues though. There are worse examples of people in taoist education/practice who could be shown to be mercenary or disengenuous. Paul.

[Procurator]

 

To immerse ourselves in Dao, our day begins with qigong stretches. .... social transformation and global vision, ever more ready to live a Daoist life full of harmony and integration.

 

. She has written and edited 25 books on different aspects of Daoism and has taught it for over 20 years.

She is also a practitioner and teacher of taiji quan, qigong, yoga, hypnosis, and meditation. She has lived in Japan for a total of ten years and traveled widely in Asia, espe-cially China, Korea, and Thailand. Aside from her native German, she is also fluent in Chi-nese and Japanese.

 

 

 

 

& Dancing

 

 

Wayne Dyer, Change Your ThoughtsChange Your Life

...

Sarah Rossbach, Feng Shui: The Chinese Art of Placement

 

 

 

 

Participants are invited to share their practice ...

 

 

 

Happiness Questionnaire

 

Qi Dancing

 

 

 

 

This thread is priceless. It shows a nice progression from an idea that an aged cosmopolitan polyglot academic can immerse a paying customer in Dao ....

Edited February 14, 2010 by TianShi

[Procurator]

[Procurator]

few scholars went this path and got ordained (Saso ...in the west,

 

..to mentioning of Michael Saso : a polyglot cosmopolitan scholar who is ordained as a daoist priest. below is an example of his work from a synchronistic thread-

Edited February 14, 2010 by TianShi

[Procurator]

in Huang Ting Jing you have this line

 

 

 

至道不煩不旁迕

zhi4 dao4 bu4 fan2 bu4 pang2 wu3

 

M.Saso translates: When Dao is touched, ....

 

 

Wang Xi Zhi's Huang Ting Jing

 

now to translate 至道 (the Ultimate Dao) as "Dao is touched" is an elementary mistake similar to translating "Your Highness" as "oh, you are so tall".

 

至道is a set phrase , a basic title for the Dao. The fact that Saso mistranslates it so naively tells everything one needs to know about his grasp of the subject.

 

 

..so now we have another aged cosmopolytan polyglot western scholar who mistranslates the most basic of phrases in those VERY clear texts. He is ordained (immersed) too!

 

the circle is complete.

[soaring crane]

Hi - It'll probably be an enjoyable seminar for the people who attend but it seems to me that there's too much stuff crammed into the program, and no real cohesion. Every AM and PM a new topic, for seven days straight. What exactly is the goal here?

[Stigweard]

now to translate 至道 (the Ultimate Dao) as "Dao is touched" is an elementary mistake similar to translating "Your Highness" as "oh, you are so tall".

 

至道is a set phrase , a basic title for the Dao. The fact that Saso mistranslates it so naively tells everything one needs to know about his grasp of the subject.

 

 

..so now we have another aged cosmopolytan polyglot western scholar who mistranslates the most basic of phrases in those VERY clear texts. He is ordained (immersed) too!

 

the circle is complete.

 

And the circle is renewed once again by a western critic, posing under the anonymous pseudonym of a 2000 year old Daoist sect, making reviews of a recognized and celebrated scholar and practitioner of Daoist traditions, whilst giving us absolutely no credible basis for his estimations other then the exertions of his own opinions.

 

Yes we are all fools here, and I most joyously include myself in that valuation.

 

[Riyue]

now to translate 至道 (the Ultimate Dao) as "Dao is touched" is an elementary mistake similar to translating "Your Highness" as "oh, you are so tall".

 

至道is a set phrase , a basic title for the Dao. The fact that Saso mistranslates it so naively tells everything one needs to know about his grasp of the subject.

 

 

..so now we have another aged cosmopolytan polyglot western scholar who mistranslates the most basic of phrases in those VERY clear texts. He is ordained (immersed) too!

 

the circle is complete.

 

http://baike.baidu.com/view/705662.htm?fr=ala0_1

 

至道

　至道

①高深奥妙的医学要理。

《素问·气交变大论》余诚菲德未足以受至道。

《素问·著至教论》子若受传不知合至道以感师教。

 

②养生学术语。专指养生保精之深奥道理。

《素问·上古天真论》中古之时有至人者淳德全道。王冰注全其至道故曰至人。

长沙马王堆汉墓出土古医书中有《天下至道谈》一书。

《素问·生气通天论》

是故谨和五味骨正筋柔气血以流腠理以密如是则骨气以精谨道如法长有天命。王冰注是所谓修养天真之至道也。

------

【zdic.net 漢 典 網】

http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/6/ZdicE8Zdic87ZdicB3230896.htm

 

(1).指最好的学说、道德或政治制度。《礼记·学记》“虽有嘉肴弗食不知其旨也虽有至道弗学不知其善也。”《礼记·表记》“道有至义有考。至道以王义道以霸考道以为无失。” 郑玄 注“此读当言‘道有至有义有考’字脱一有耳。” 陈澔 集说引 应氏 曰“至道即仁也。至道浑而无迹故得其浑全精粹以为王。” 晋 陆机 《演连珠》之六“是以至道之行万类取足於世大化既洽百姓无匱於心。”

 

(2).最高的原则、准则。《荀子·儒效》“以从俗为善以货财为寳以养生为己至道是民德也。”

 

(3).佛、道谓极精深微妙的道理或道术。《庄子·在宥》“来吾语女至道。至道之精窈窈冥冥至道之极昏昏默默。” 汉 牟融 《理惑论》“ 老子 曰‘用其光復其明无遗身殃。’此道生死之所趣吉凶之所住。至道之要实贵寂寞佛家岂好言乎” 唐 陈鸿 《东城老父传》“读释氏经亦能了其深义至道以善心化市井人。” 宋 洪迈 《夷坚丁志·司命府丞》“及见 海蟾 曰‘汝以夙契得遇我。’命长跪传至道。”

Edited February 14, 2010 by Riyue

[YMWong]

now to translate 至道 (the Ultimate Dao) as "Dao is touched" is an elementary mistake similar to translating "Your Highness" as "oh, you are so tall".

 

至道is a set phrase , a basic title for the Dao. The fact that Saso mistranslates it so naively tells everything one needs to know about his grasp of the subject.

 

 

..so now we have another aged cosmopolytan polyglot western scholar who mistranslates the most basic of phrases in those VERY clear texts. He is ordained (immersed) too!

 

the circle is complete.

 

 

TS,

 

Prof. Saso's works are often mediated by his personal hands on experience and study with Daoist masters in China and Taiwan, nowhere he claims to present 'translations' of any text but 'interpretations' based on his studies and practice.

 

From the "Gold Pavillion" I quote [Preface X]:

 

[...] The

Gold Pavillion

classic,

in the

interpretation

of traditional Taoist masters

, teaches the method of emptying prayer in a manner that even the layperson and nonexpert can follow. The reader is introduced to the meditation is chapter 2 and 3.

An

interpretation

of the Gold Pavillion classic is given in chapter 4.

[...]

 

This said, I guess Prof. Saso is a human being and can make mistakes like all of us.

 

You should think about publishing your translation of the text, so that we all can learn from your extensive knowledge.

 

Best regards

 

YM

Edited February 15, 2010 by YMWong