If you could speak to an enlightened person...

[awake]

What would you ask or say to them?

 

Please give this question some thought. I will soon have the opportunity to do so, and I would like some input to consider when formulating what I will say to or ask of him.

 

Thank you for your time and input.

[seththewhite]

Ask him to tell you his life story, then ask him to ask you a question.

 

Why is this person considered enlightened?

[Guest paul walter]

What would you ask or say to them?

 

Please give this question some thought. I will soon have the opportunity to do so, and I would like some input to consider when formulating what I will say to or ask of him.

 

Thank you for your time and input.

 

 

 

As long as you remember that you will probably not comprehend anything he says. That should help you to frame and understand your questions 'better'. Paul.

[forestofclarity]

How does one realize the truth?

 

What would you ask or say to them?

 

Please give this question some thought. I will soon have the opportunity to do so, and I would like some input to consider when formulating what I will say to or ask of him.

 

Thank you for your time and input.

[Mal]

What would you ask or say to them?

 

"Can I give you a hug?" (at the very least I'd like to shake hands)

[NeiChuan]

I don't think I would really want to look for that.. It'd probably change my view.. Make it even harder/make me look more in awe then in the now.. So im not sure.

[tyler zambori]

When it happened to me, I said "What are you"? That probably

doesn't help, sorry.

 

Are you asking for how to evaluate a potential teacher?

[Encephalon]

Look, you guys... I'm really busy right now. Can you keep it short?

[~jK~]

What would you ask or say to them?

Please give this question some thought. I will soon have the opportunity to do so, and I would like some input to consider when formulating what I will say to or ask of him. Thank you for your time and input.

Awakened one, in the west, means Enlightened

In Chinese Lao Tze = 'Old Child' -means Enlightened one.

Both convey the same as the enlightening process is simply rebirth.

A second time around with the process of Genetic Knowledge being reinstalled.

The method is written in many places: Stopping of all thoughts, and the first breath.

 

Back to your question:

I would take a copy of The Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic and ask "What do you think of this?"

 

"Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic

 

1. The Supreme Medicine has three distinctions:

Ching (essence), Qi (vitality) and Shen (spirit), which are elusive and obscure.

 

2. Keep to nonbeing, yet hold on to being and perfection is yours in an instant.

 

3. When distant winds blend together,

in one hundred days of spiritual work

And morning recitation to the Shang Ti,

Then in one year you will soar as an immortal.

 

4. The sages awaken through self-cultivation;

Deep, profound, their practices require great effort.

 

5. Fulfilling vows illumines the Heavens.

 

6. Breathing nourishes youthfulness.

 

7. Departing from the Mysterious, entering the female.

It appears to have perished, yet appears to exist.

Unmoveable, it's orgin is mysterious.

 

8. Each person has Ching.

The Shen unites with the Ching,

The Shen unites with the Qi,

The breath then unites with the true nature,

These terms appear to be fanciful exaggerations.

 

9. The Shen is capable of entering stone;

The Shen is capable of physical flight.

Entering water it is not drowned;

Entering fire it is not burned.

 

10. The Shen depends on life form;

The Ching depends on sufficient Qi.

If these are neither depleted nor injured

the result will be youthfulness and longevity.

 

11. These three distinctions have one principle,

Yet so subtle it cannot be heard.

 

12. Their meeting results in existence,

their parting results in nonexistence.

 

13. The seven apertures interpenetrate

and each emits wisdom light.

 

14. The sacred sun and sacred moon

Illumuniate the Golden Court.

One attainment is eternal attainment.

 

15. The body will naturally become weightless.

When the supreme harmony is replete,

the bone fragments become like winter jade.

 

16. Acquiring the Elixir results in immortality,

not acquiring it results in extinction.

 

17. The Elixir is within yourself,

It is not white and not green.

 

18. Recite and hold ten thousand times.

These are the subtle principles of self-illumination.

 

(Lu Szu-hsing's appended verses)

 

19. The two images of the dragon and tiger are unified through Qi;

Chaos blending as One.

 

20. It is not possible to attain the eternal just through invocations.

 

21. The Elixir is called Green Dragon and White Tiger;

The Elixir is in the nature of no-nature,

Emptiness of nonemptiness.

 

22. Even if you are unable to make use of the substance,

You can certainly make use of the function.

 

23. Frequently both the substance and conditions for the substance appear together,

although these are not always percieved as identical.

 

24. The ancients said, "the term *emptiness* embraces the entire teaching."

 

* Transliterated by Stuart Olson"

 

***Note

My copy of the book has the same as above in Chinese.

It has 2 titles - depending on the publishing date

One is: "The Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic"

The other is: "The Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic: The Taoist Guide to Health, Longevity, and Immortality"

 

It is written in so many places that writers, that copy it, are being taken to court for plagurism.

I think that Stuart Olson was the first to translate it into English and other languages.

[tyler zambori]

I should think The Jade Emperor's copyright has run out by now....

 

Anyway, so if the OP is wanting to know how to evaluate a potential teacher,

this might help even though it's Buddhist oriented:

 

Relating to a Spiritual Teacher: Building a Healthy Relationship

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/group.html_1305527811.html

 

(free online e-book)

[~jK~]

I should think The Jade Emperor's copyright has run out by now....

 

The copyright by Stuart Olsen is from 1992.

 

"Since the Copyright Act of 1976, copyright would last for the life of the author plus 50 years, or 75 years for a work of corporate authorship. The Act extended these terms to life of the author plus 70 years and for works of corporate authorship to 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever endpoint is earlier.[1] Copyright protection for works published prior to January 1, 1978 was increased by 20 years to a total of 95 years from their publication date."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

If you want to give advice - at least get the facts straight first.

[Trunk]

What would you ask or say to them?

Most important is simply to still your mind and meditate in their presence, especially while they are meditating. The transference of refined vibe, enlightened consciousness, and the osmotic learning process of "how an enlightened body is" takes place mostly during meditation. That's the most critical part of being with an enlightened Teacher, ime.

 

The conceptual framework that you get with Q&A - that's helpful and important, but you'll pick up pieces of that from lots of places. The real prize of being with an enlightened Teacher is to simply be with them. (Hopefully regularly for an extended period of time.)

 

Example, this school.

[tyler zambori]

The copyright by Stuart Olsen is from 1992.

 

"Since the Copyright Act of 1976, copyright would last for the life of the author plus 50 years, or 75 years for a work of corporate authorship. The Act extended these terms to life of the author plus 70 years and for works of corporate authorship to 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever endpoint is earlier.[1] Copyright protection for works published prior to January 1, 1978 was increased by 20 years to a total of 95 years from their publication date."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

If you want to give advice - at least get the facts straight first.

 

It was a joke.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Most important is simply to still your mind and meditate in their presence, especially while they are meditating. The transference of refined vibe, enlightened consciousness, and the osmotic learning process of "how an enlightened body is" takes place mostly during meditation. That's the most critical part of being with an enlightened Teacher, ime.

 

The conceptual framework that you get with Q&A - that's helpful and important, but you'll pick up pieces of that from lots of places. The real prize of being with an enlightened Teacher is to simply be with them. (Hopefully regularly for an extended period of time.)

 

Example, this school.

 

This.

 

I've met a lot of guys who, if they don't claim to be enlightened, claim to have some sort of realization that is above everyone else.... and they fail in just being a normal person. Their speech is abrasive, they get stuck and obsessed in pointless and stupid stuff, they play childish mind games and all that stuff. I don't even ask these people anything, I don't bother talking to them, because they aren't anywhere near where I want to be.

 

Before I get around to asking an enlightened person a question, I want to verify they are what everyone says they are (because from what I hear enlightened people don't claim they're enlightened ) and to do that, you have to do what Trunk said.

 

After that... who knows, because I haven't succeeded in finding one

[Creation]

Most important is simply to still your mind and meditate in their presence, especially while they are meditating. The transference of refined vibe, enlightened consciousness, and the osmotic learning process of "how an enlightened body is" takes place mostly during meditation. That's the most critical part of being with an enlightened Teacher, ime.

 

The conceptual framework that you get with Q&A - that's helpful and important, but you'll pick up pieces of that from lots of places. The real prize of being with an enlightened Teacher is to simply be with them. (Hopefully regularly for an extended period of time.)

YES! Absolutely.

 

Turn down thinking, turn up feeling. Don't ask any questions at all, except perhaps to clarify something they said to you.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Creation

[MBZ]

As long as you remember that you will probably not comprehend anything he says. That should help you to frame and understand your questions 'better'. Paul.

I would hope that if someone is truly enlightened they would be able to speak to ANYONE and be understood.

 

BLESSINGS!!!

[MBZ]

YES! Absolutely.

 

Turn down thinking, turn up feeling. Don't ask any questions at all, except perhaps to clarify something they said to you.

I agree

 

BLESSINGS!!!

[tyler zambori]

I would hope that if someone is truly enlightened they would be able to speak to ANYONE and be understood.

 

BLESSINGS!!!

 

I dunno about that...I once got into a discussion on e-sangha about tibetan teachers

who got frustrated with getting past cultural differences and ended up going back

to Tibet with the attitude of praying for the westerners, but basically giving up

on trying to communicate with them. The conversation kind of veered to how much better

it is to learn, generally, from westerners who already did the really hard work of

getting past the language and cultural differences.

 

For example, BKF is a great and clear writer, but his own teacher probably would

have had a harder time communicating with westerners. Bruce was totally steeped in

the language and culture by the time he got there, but most of us aren't.

 

My point is, they are not superhuman. They are to be respected, but they are

not superhuman.

[Guest paul walter]

I would hope that if someone is truly enlightened they would be able to speak to ANYONE and be understood.

 

BLESSINGS!!!

 

 

Well, it seems logical to expect that but my experience is that what seems comprehensible from this side of the 'fence' stays on this side of the fence. If you look over the fence you may think you see something you understand and that moves and talks like a human, but that's most often just a matter of relating to your own need you feel towards the 'enlightened' one, nothing to do with the actual existence of the 'other'. It would sort of prove 'enlightenment' to be a falsity if we could 'understand' it through verbal means, no? And with something as rare an eventuation as enlightened even a millimetre off the actuality is a total lie. This is what an 'enlightened' person will tell you. The grass always looks greener on the other side whereas it could be purple once you get over there and are able to see the world with new eyes. All that and Tyler's comments. Paul.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I would hope that if someone is truly enlightened they would be able to speak to ANYONE and be understood.

 

BLESSINGS!!!

 

 

I dunno about that...I once got into a discussion on e-sangha about tibetan teachers

who got frustrated with getting past cultural differences and ended up going back

to Tibet with the attitude of praying for the westerners, but basically giving up

on trying to communicate with them. The conversation kind of veered to how much better

it is to learn, generally, from westerners who already did the really hard work of

getting past the language and cultural differences.

 

For example, BKF is a great and clear writer, but his own teacher probably would

have had a harder time communicating with westerners. Bruce was totally steeped in

the language and culture by the time he got there, but most of us aren't.

 

My point is, they are not superhuman. They are to be respected, but they are

not superhuman.

 

There are good points made on each side.

 

In Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics, an important step for teaching is learning transplantation of consciousness- pretty much, you see the world from the perspective of any item, animal, or person. For a high level adept, it means you can understand how someone thinks, their personality, and, for teaching, how they think and what kind of things they will understand. If a teacher can connect with and understand with a student in this way, they can communicate everything.

 

Then there are people who speak to the masses in ways that everyone can find meaning- be it on the surface or even at a deep level. The same message goes out but it helps everyone no matter what level they are on.

 

A lot of people say that part of enlightenment is seeing things how they are, without all the covering up that everyone puts on stuff. So in some sense, even someone not seeking cultivation would benefit from a discussion from an enlightened teacher, as the teacher could reveal the universe to them. Then again, maybe the teacher is telling them things that they will understand only at a later date.

 

So.... it could go both ways.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[tyler zambori]

There are good points made on each side.

 

In Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics, an important step for teaching is learning transplantation of consciousness- pretty much, you see the world from the perspective of any item, animal, or person. For a high level adept, it means you can understand how someone thinks, their personality, and, for teaching, how they think and what kind of things they will understand. If a teacher can connect with and understand with a student in this way, they can communicate everything.

 

Then there are people who speak to the masses in ways that everyone can find meaning- be it on the surface or even at a deep level. The same message goes out but it helps everyone no matter what level they are on.

 

A lot of people say that part of enlightenment is seeing things how they are, without all the covering up that everyone puts on stuff. So in some sense, even someone not seeking cultivation would benefit from a discussion from an enlightened teacher, as the teacher could reveal the universe to them. Then again, maybe the teacher is telling them things that they will understand only at a later date.

 

So.... it could go both ways.

 

 

I think you also have to throw into it the strong possibility that enlightened

people may start to forget what it's like not to be enlightened after a while,

and then start having a harder time communicating with the beginners. I bet you

it does happen. Then they would have to get a more recently enlightened person to

help them with that. I'm talking about words here, not the transmission of consciousness.

 

It's not necessarily so easy to just absorb the teacher's consciousness just by

being around them - if one is not prepared.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think you also have to throw into it the strong possibility that enlightened

people may start to forget what it's like not to be enlightened after a while,

and then start having a harder time communicating with the beginners. I bet you

it does happen. Then they would have to get a more recently enlightened person to

help them with that. I'm talking about words here, not the transmission of consciousness.

 

It's not necessarily so easy to just absorb the teacher's consciousness just by

being around them - if one is not prepared.

 

Hm... I dunno. Not that I disagree with what you're saying, it just seems a bit... I dunno, a bit fishy.

 

I mean, what's with enlightenment if you can't even perceive when you are confusing the hell out of someone? If you don't even have the empathy/sympathy to know what kind of teachings will be relevant for them, then have you been doing?

 

Otherwise you are just an eccentric old man. Plenty of those around. Are they enlightened? I dunno. But then again, this isn't the "what is enlightenment" thread so..... yeah.

 

 

 

I guess the question to ask an enlightened person is, "do you remember what it was like not being enlightened?"

Edited February 13, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[tyler zambori]

Hm... I dunno. Not that I disagree with what you're saying, it just seems a bit... I dunno, a bit fishy.

 

I mean, what's with enlightenment if you can't even perceive when you are confusing the hell out of someone? If you don't even have the empathy/sympathy to know what kind of teachings will be relevant for them, then have you been doing?

 

Otherwise you are just an eccentric old man. Plenty of those around. Are they enlightened? I dunno. But then again, this isn't the "what is enlightenment" thread so..... yeah.

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable, not fishy . I don't remember very well

what it's like to be five years old. I can't point to a real example that is

a clear cut case of forgetting, but I think it's possible.

 

I guess the question to ask an enlightened person is, "do you remember what it was like not being enlightened?"

 

yeah, maybe!

[deci belle]

[Trunk]

Good example.

I don't remember very well what it's like to be five years old.

I've seen this happen with very advanced teachers.

 

My first meditation teacher had a psychotherapy practice which he discontinued after a certain point, and talked about his reasoning in front of the meditation group. He just didn't have (much of) the emotional and psychological content of a normal human being. He had lost his personal internal reference to be able to relate well to clients in a psychotherapeutic setting.

 

This doesn't mean that he wasn't still a human in some ways.

 

My observation is that it's a mistaken assumption that enlightenment means "perfection in all actions" or "perfection of all the virtues" or some such. Basically it means that one is developed in integration with Light. Doesn't necesarily imply anything else. An enlightened Teacher can misunderstand what a student says, or make a mis-statement him/her self. Also, an enlightened Teacher is generally good at some things, not so good at some other things - like any other individual.

 

That's my observation after spending time around several very mystically advanced teachers. (Like mind-blowing, gahhhh , advanced.)

 

- Trunk