Taoist Contradiction?

[hajimesaito]

Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu and other great Taoist sages had expounded the teachings of being in conformity with nature all the time and to go with the flow. Then why are there the so-called Taoist sexual practices of semen retention which is a completely anti-nature thing to do? When we (males) have sex we naturally ejaculate and forcing the semen to not come out is extremely against our body's natural functions. And it even leads to the men gaining energy from the women while not giving away anything at all. In other words, even according to Taoist theories of yin and yang, there doesn't exist any natural balance in such an unnatural practice.

 

Could any expert explain this anomaly?

[goldisheavy]

I'm not claiming to be an expert on Taoism, but what you're pointing out is spot on. I'm afraid you won't be getting any reasonable answers to this. Furthermore, dying is also natural. Trying to postpone dying or to even become immortal is unnatural as well.

 

A lot of people, myself included, believe that a lot of what is called "taoist" is not true to the teachings of Laozi and Zhuangzi. I won't say those deviant teachings are always and completely without value though, because I think it's fine to question anything, including nature.

 

Even a dream body, which we all can admit is completely immaterial, can die in the dream, and is not immortal.

 

As for holding back ejaculation, I think the real reason people do that is to prolong their sexual pleasure. Claiming that it has a higher spiritual purpose is pure bullshit in my view.

Edited February 17, 2010 by goldisheavy

[hajimesaito]

I agree with you, goldisheavy.

 

One of the main reasons why I do not like the idea of such practices is because its an extremely selfish practice where the man uses the woman's body for his self-pleasure. The real pleasure comes in giving and sharing. Lao Tzu himself had said that the sage helps without expecting anything in return (and which is why he gets everything).

 

The yin and yang will only be perfectly balanced when the men and women both give and take equally to maintain the balance. I think all those pervert practices in Taoism and Tantra are pretty much deviations from the true path.

[z00se]

I agree with you, goldisheavy.

 

One of the main reasons why I do not like the idea of such practices is because its an extremely selfish practice where the man uses the woman's body for his self-pleasure. The real pleasure comes in giving and sharing. Lao Tzu himself had said that the sage helps without expecting anything in return (and which is why he gets everything).

 

The yin and yang will only be perfectly balanced when the men and women both give and take equally to maintain the balance. I think all those pervert practices in Taoism and Tantra are pretty much deviations from the true path.

 

Hrmmmm.... why is it not natural? There is a muscle there that can be used for semen retention without using your fingers externally or anything. Infact when your channels are open enough and you are relaxed enough you don't need to tense any muscles at all you just do it all with your mind and it works fine. There is no 'forcing'.

 

Equally you could argue that martial arts are not natural. That iron shirt is not natural. That eating a heap of boiled strange herbs (TCM medicine) is not natural. But all these things improve your health. Thats what taoism is all about.

 

I think the sexual practices empower the man to control ejaculation so that he can better pleasure the woman, therefore not being selfish at all. I guess it's the same as anything - it can be used for different uses depending on the user.

 

I believe sexual energy can greatly speed your spiritual growth through my own personal experience. I don't mean a little, i mean exponentially. Well it has for me. You'd have to give it a good try yourself and see if it did for you.

 

And it even leads to the men gaining energy from the women while not giving away anything at all. In other words, even according to Taoist theories of yin and yang, there doesn't exist any natural balance in such an unnatural practice.

 

Could any expert explain this anomaly?

Thats not how it's done, and it wouldn't be benefitial in that way. Imagine you have 1 cup of hot water and one cup of cold water and you want to have a nice luke warm water. You can't just try to blend energies while they're in individual cups can you? You need to let them both flow together, then they simultaniously blend energies and both benefit. Like yeah u can try suck energy out of the woman but deep down will you feel good about it? No, and your energy and channel openess will reflect this and reduce your personal benefit compaired to if you shared.

[三江源]

There is no anomaly at all. These thngs that you describe are Taoist Arts.

 

Art is creative and enhances nature.

 

Anyone how has had taoist sex will tell you that it is creative and enhances the flow of things.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I think the sexual practices empower the man to control ejaculation so that he can better pleasure the woman, therefore not being selfish at all.

Excellent observation! If anyone cares to notice, there is an observable difference between the male's 'time of passion' and the female's.. the effort to enhance the female's experience (balance) also revealed enhanced energetic benefits for the male.. it is also noteworthy that the mind is a product of nature, equally are the products of the mind.. including physical disciplines. Is there a difference between a bird's nest and a human's house? both build according to their 'nature'.. is there a difference between a beaver's dam and a human's dam? both build according to their 'nature'..

 

Crafting a discipline that enhances sexual relationships and enhances the male's energies doesn't seem contradictory from my perspective..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu ...

 

Could anyone explain this anomaly?

 

This is the reason I do not join in on these type of discussions.

 

I mostly agree with what has been said above. These practices are matters of individual art and experimentation and have little to do with Taoist Philosophy.

 

I see nothing wrong with these practices as long as they are not harmful to one's self or to others. That's what living one's life to the fullest means.

 

Peace & Love!

[walkerinthewoods]

Please decide for yourself, but before you make any judgments about a practice you should learn more about the practice, what it is really about and what are the actual goals.

 

The Taoist sexual practice is not about taking energy just for the man's benefit nor is the goal to never ejaculate. Either or even both of these as the only part of such a practice would not be a benefit to one's health. Taoist sex is not just a male practice either. There is a female side to the practice, though I rarely see it discussed any where.

 

Ejaculation is a reflex. You can't force this reflex not to happen. You have to relax into it, among other things, so that it does not happen. You could ejaculate while practicing this and still gain some benefit. Though if you practice this you may find, as most men who have practiced this, that you do not need to ejaculate every time you have sex or sexual stimulation.

 

The goal of the Taoist sexual practice is to improve one's health, ideally both people involved will do the practice and improve their health together.

 

Humans have sex for reasons other than to procreate. Is this natural? This practice developed as a way to gain benefit from our natural desire for sex when not procreating, which is most of the time.

[Lucky7Strikes]

"Natural" in the sense of a certain norm, doesn't mean much.

 

But you can have sex, or do anything, in the state of effortlessness flow unhindered by the dualistic "self."

 

Natural? Feels like it, but that is another attachment.

 

[gendao]

Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu and other great Taoist sages had expounded the teachings of being in conformity with nature all the time and to go with the flow. Then why are there the so-called Taoist sexual practices of semen retention which is a completely anti-nature thing to do? When we (males) have sex we naturally ejaculate and forcing the semen to not come out is extremely against our body's natural functions. And it even leads to the men gaining energy from the women while not giving away anything at all. In other words, even according to Taoist theories of yin and yang, there doesn't exist any natural balance in such an unnatural practice.

 

Could any expert explain this anomaly?

Well, to follow Nature you have to find your true nature first...

 

And in the Taoist tradition, this is your prenatal (not postnatal) state. Which requires deep meditation to uncover. Even in New Age circles, it is believed that our True Selves have been obscured in this mundane realm by an Earthly veil. So, our true natures are not immediately obvious...and your normal beta wave conscious mind is just an outer wrapping for it.

 

Much of Taoism is actually in accord with "Heavenly" nature, which runs opposite to "Earthly" nature. Hence, alchemical ascension does often reverse the "normal" processes in the descent towards death here.

 

As far as SKF, a man who doesn't ejac is simply not going to lose from sex, not necessarily gain from the woman. In effect, a mutual non-exchange.

[forestofclarity]

A lot of Taoist arts are about reversion, or reversing the natural flow of creation in order to return to the Tao. In a sense, a lot of Taoism is against the stream. If you look at traditional Taoist texts, you'll see a lot of talk of reversion, returning to the root, guarding the one and so forth.

 

Sexual practices may, but need not, be about channeling this outflow of energy into another purpose. How many animals beside man spend so much energy for nothing more than pure, momentary pleasure? Is this natural?

 

As to longevity, I might suggest that long life is our birthright, one which we squander through poor acquired habits and wasteful outflows (i.e. by stress, overly complicated our lives, being unable to cope with things as they are, etc.). One theory about Taoist longevity practices is that they give one more time to develop spiritually.

 

I suppose this all depends on what you think "natural" means.

[Guest paul walter]

 

Equally you could argue that martial arts are not natural. That iron shirt is not natural. That eating a heap of boiled strange herbs (TCM medicine) is not natural. But all these things improve your health. Thats what taoism is all about.

 

I think the sexual practices empower the man to control ejaculation so that he can better pleasure the woman, therefore not being selfish at all.

 

 

 

'Real' taoist 'practice' resides in the state they call 'emptiness'and wu-wei--it's the alpha and omega of 'practice'. If you forget these principles you are by nature lost and will need the anchoring of 'practice' in order to make up for lost ground . The taoist texts explain that man has medicine and 'arts', even food, cause we left our natural state--these things are for 'damage control', so yeah, they are far from ideal for maintaining ones physical and spiritual life. Best to 'cultivate' emptiness and watch your body/mind reboot itself, have faith and go to the next level 'spontaneously'. Anyway, on with the debate.... Paul.

[Gerard]

Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu and other great Taoist sages had expounded the teachings of being in conformity with nature all the time and to go with the flow. Then why are there the so-called Taoist sexual practices of semen retention which is a completely anti-nature thing to do? When we (males) have sex we naturally ejaculate and forcing the semen to not come out is extremely against our body's natural functions. And it even leads to the men gaining energy from the women while not giving away anything at all. In other words, even according to Taoist theories of yin and yang, there doesn't exist any natural balance in such an unnatural practice.

 

Could any expert explain this anomaly?

 

 

This is not an anomaly even though it seems to be that way. Why do you think anchorites (or even monks and hermits) that are in long term retreat stop sexual intercourse and limit their food intake (some stop eating for periods of time or limit severely their food intake). Well they don't do it to pusnish themselves; it is simply a by-product of practice. The more you advance in the spiritual path the less you need in terms of bodily requirements. We are talking about triggering internal alchemy: jing → qi → shen; this process which I and others are experiencing in our daily practice is based on experience not in what a Taoist sage has to say.

 

As the Buddha once said:

 

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

 

Let me tell you that what I just said is based on my personal experience; therefore, reusing jing instead of wasting it through ejaculation will slow down (I didn't say stop which is a different story) your spiritual progress. I also believe that we are talking about several lifetimes of spiritual practice. One is not enough to attain liberation if that's your goal.

[ralis]

The problem with retention is the problem it causes for the prostate. A friend of mine was told by his Uroligist, "use it or lose it"! He is 60 yrs.old.

 

There is some evidence that less usage may lead to cancer.

 

Are these practices based in reality? Does anyone know? Mistranslations perhaps?

 

The original teaching lost in time?

 

Maybe some joker just cooked this up for laughs! LOL!!

 

Is there an element of fear, that if one does not do retention, one will not get into heaven? LOL!!

 

ralis

[Gerard]

Did you bother to read my post? lol. If you recirculate/reuse the jing using the mind sending it down the leg meridians by pulling first to the lower tantien (as long as they are clean and open) there will be no prostrate issues as claimed by Western medicine.

[ralis]

Did you bother to read my post? lol. If you recirculate/reuse the jing using the mind sending it down the leg meridians by pulling first to the lower tantien (as long as they are clean and open) there will be no prostrate issues as claimed by Western medicine.

 

Give me some evidence on that!

ralis

[jinjujitsu]

"Natural" in the sense of a certain norm, doesn't mean much.

 

But you can have sex, or do anything, in the state of effortlessness flow unhindered by the dualistic "self."

 

Natural? Feels like it, but that is another attachment.

 

 

 

Very Buddhist and so not Daoist. But whatever

[Uncle Screwtape]

There is nothing unnatural about trying to postpone dying. We all do it. The average life expectancy in the Western world has about doubled in the last hundred years or so thanks to better diet and medicine. And if you see death as merely another aspect of continuous change, which Taoists tend to, then there is nothing contradictory about the Taoist practice of nudging change this way or that way.

 

Richard

[nac]

Just my personal opinion: It's natural if it conforms to the laws of nature. If you can retain semen using scientific laws, then it's natural, otherwise it can't be done and it's self-deception. This feels like a Buddhist interpretation though.

Edited February 18, 2010 by nac