Are there differences between the various qigong practices and how do I choose the right one for me?

[Guest sykkelpump]

Eh, my post was stupid.

 

Not because I was wrong, but because I know that people hold strongly to their beloved practices, and my words threatened that.

 

If you want the most well preserved and advanced method of cultivation, look for good I-Chuan. It's surface is extremely deceptive, and if you find a good teacher and stick with him, you'll learn about the many keys to what qigong really is, and what the Guanzi really means by "mental discipline."

 

I am not sure what i chuan is,I belive it is similar to zhan zhuang? zhan zhuang is very good by the way.

but remember this is your beloved practice.

[Old Man Contradiction]

I am not sure what i chuan is,I belive it is similar to zhan zhuang? zhan zhuang is very good by the way.

but remember this is your beloved practice.

 

It is my beloved practice, and I am highly biased and also have different goals than others. Based on my goals and background, I really should be at an internal martial arts forum instead of a taoist forum.

 

ZZ is a part of i-chuan's training. I think that outside of i-chuan zz is practiced differently. I-chuan's ZZ uses posture and relaxing as the precondition to training the six directions, the tendons and the yi. It can basically be simplified into the six directions if need be.

[King Kabalabhati]

Mindspring, as you can see it's not a simple question you asked

 

...but if you're looking for a very simple qigong for healing yourself and others, Spring Forest would seem to be a good system.

[Mal]

Mindspring, as you can see it's not a simple question you asked

 

Always flushes out a few firmly held opinions though

 

Mindspring if you're drawn to adding some Tai Chi into your gym work I would definitely have a go at that and see if you enjoy practicing it.

 

Tai Chi was the 1st big "improver" of my life, once I found my Sifu. I have been learning Tai Chi on and off since high school and I still love to practice it. Highly recommended. Plus there are some good teachers around Aus (Michael's workshop is possibly a bit far away for us, unfortunately)

[Guest sykkelpump]

Mindspring, as you can see it's not a simple question you asked

 

...but if you're looking for a very simple qigong for healing yourself and others, Spring Forest would seem to be a good system.

 

yes,spring forest or falun gong(free on youtube)

[tyler zambori]

Eh, my post was stupid.

 

Not because I was wrong, but because I know that people hold strongly to their beloved practices, and my words threatened that.

 

If you want the most well preserved and advanced method of cultivation, look for good I-Chuan. It's surface is extremely deceptive, and if you find a good teacher and stick with him, you'll learn about the many keys to what qigong really is, and what the Guanzi really means by "mental discipline."

 

 

Do you mean Xingyiquan? Why is it the most well preserved? Did people start chopping the IMA's up into sections in order to have a specialty to sell, or something?

 

Thanks for the info about IMA's. I'm finding that qigong without much movement

is not so comfortable, so I think there is something to it.

[Ya Mu]

Do you mean Xingyiquan? Why is it the most well preserved? Did people start chopping the IMA's up into sections in order to have a specialty to sell, or something?

 

Thanks for the info about IMA's. I'm finding that qigong without much movement

is not so comfortable, so I think there is something to it.

Hsing I should only be practiced with a teacher; IMO it is one of the better MA's. If I were a MAist that would be what I would concentrate on. Preying Mantis Kung Fu is also a devastating MA and would be my second choice; again you need a teacher. Just like proper neigong - you need a teacher. Neither Hsing I nor Preying Mantis are qigong, they are highly efficient ways to destroy an opponent.

 

There are many movement qigong systems. The Gift of the Tao: Vibratory Acts of Power movement system referenced in my sig below is a highly efficient energetic system and can actually be learned from the DVD. A combination qigong practice of internal meditative style and movement style seems to be the best balanced and more efficient way of cultivating qi. There are many systems out there but it seems that many folks never consider efficiency.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Ya Mu

[Old Man Contradiction]

Do you mean Xingyiquan? Why is it the most well preserved? Did people start chopping the IMA's up into sections in order to have a specialty to sell, or something?

 

Thanks for the info about IMA's. I'm finding that qigong without much movement

is not so comfortable, so I think there is something to it.

 

I believe that there are original forms of xingyi, pakua, and taiji out there.

 

The history as taught to me about my teacher's teacher's teacher, Wang Xiangzhai, is that his teachers were mainly fighters from the empire. The kingdom scouted China for the best fighters and recruited them, if they said no, they chopped off their heads. Beheading was a popular form of punishment. Once the fighters were within the forbidden city walls and they did not meet the standards or did something wrong, they'd get beheaded. During this time, the king promoted to the public forms of tai chi that were less than martially applicable. So in China, the kingdom had the best of the best. They were not allowed to teach outside of the palace walls, if they did, they get beheaded. So their common story when they actually did teach outside was that they learned it from a taoist in the mountains. Hence, the multiple stories of lineages coming from mountain dwelling Taoists. So these guys were the best. Unfortunately, most of them were slaughtered during the Cultural Revolution, but a few did survive.

 

Although i-chuan is technically a new martial art, Wang Xiangzhai's teachers were from inside the palace walls. He reduced the forms into the most basic movements, and emphasized the internal work. Now days, most people have kept the extravagant form of tai chi for example, while neglecting the internal work. To mention, just relaxing is not what I mean by internal, it is as much of a physical hard act as doing pushups or pullups, but it's inside your body and goes with the principles of TCM and western physics. This is why I believe I-Chuan is the best bet, although even in i-chuan you will find people neglecting what it originally was. Guo Guizhi's and/or Yu Yong Nian's students are the best way to find the real deal IMO.

[Old Man Contradiction]

Hsing I should only be practiced with a teacher; IMO it is one of the better MA's. If I were a MAist that would be what I would concentrate on. Preying Mantis Kung Fu is also a devastating MA and would be my second choice; again you need a teacher. Just like proper neigong - you need a teacher. Neither Hsing I nor Preying Mantis are qigong, they are highly efficient ways to destroy an opponent.

 

 

IMO, If Hsing-I is not nei kung, than it is not Hsing-I.

 

note: I do practice Hsing-I.

[Ya Mu]

IMO, If Hsing-I is not nei kung, than it is not Hsing-I.

 

note: I do practice Hsing-I.

IMO Hsing I is not neigong; I have practiced it enough to know. While one could call San Ti a "qigong" style posture it certainly doesn't cover any energy spectrum. In terms of efficiency San Ti is about posture and strike force position - not energetics. The 5 elements each have a particular devestating martial application and in no way are they qigong - same for the animals.

 

The problem is that you have never been exposed to real neigong but only MA so in your experience what you say is true. Qigong and neigong is about the manipulation of energy; MA is about kicking someone's tail, incapacitate as quickly as possible - just 2 totally different things.

Again, you are like most who are exposed to qigong through MA - no idea about efficiency of energetics, great idea about posture, muscle development, force vectors, and moment arms. The efficiency is in these things - not energetics.

 

What you say about many Tai Chi forms is also what I was taught. Ol Chen Pan Ling looked at all the forms available from an engineer's perspective and "corrected" the moves back to optimum physics - correct moment arms and force vectors. Chen Pan Ling style Tai Jee is representative of what you say was "lost" in the forms.

[tyler zambori]

If MA is about kicking someone's tail, then why are there even

*any* Internal Martial Arts? Doesn't make any sense.

[Ya Mu]

If MA is about kicking someone's tail, then why are there even

*any* Internal Martial Arts? Doesn't make any sense.

Why do you recon the word "Martial" is in "Martial Arts"

 

I think if you examine serious practitioners of "internal" styles versus serious practitioners of "external" styles one thing that you will find is a difference in muscle development. The true "internal" guys muscles will be more like a cat while most external guys go for the hard muscle. So one of the things I see is the strike is more inside out with proper physics alignment with the internal guys and more "hard muscle" force strikes with the external guys.

[tyler zambori]

Why do you recon the word "Martial" is in "Martial Arts"

 

I think if you examine serious practitioners of "internal" styles versus serious practitioners of "external" styles one thing that you will find is a difference in muscle development. The true "internal" guys muscles will be more like a cat while most external guys go for the hard muscle. So one of the things I see is the strike is more inside out with proper physics alignment with the internal guys and more "hard muscle" force strikes with the external guys.

 

Gee....I would say there's also a reason for having the word "internal" in there too.

 

 

Me, I just carry pepper spray and a pit bull, one under each arm . I have

to change sides with the pit bull, being so heavy and all that...

[thelerner]

Take a look at whats available nearby. Convenience helps make regular practice easier. No sense falling for something a hundred miles away. While videos and Youtube are okay, they can't take the place of a live teacher.

 

Second I think a great teacher is more important then the particular art. You might be looking for the ultimate martial art and see a yoga teacher who moves with unusual grace and power. Or vice versa. Keep an open mind and be willing to make detours. Sit in on various classes. How good is the instructor, how good are his students? Do you feel a connection?

 

 

Michael

[Mal]

The problem is that you have never been exposed to real neigong but only MA so in your experience what you say is true.

 

I probably have that problem too but since you mentioned mantis you might enjoy this video of my SiGung teaching the Sifu's of our school (my Sifu, not shown, is SiGung's youngest brother.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0wRqR9J8WA

 

I think a great teacher is more important then the particular art.

 

Definitely

 

p.s. Go less bull in your terrior and you will get a lot more

"What a cute puppy, can I pat him" conversations

[Old Man Contradiction]

IMO Hsing I is not neigong; I have practiced it enough to know. While one could call San Ti a "qigong" style posture it certainly doesn't cover any energy spectrum. In terms of efficiency San Ti is about posture and strike force position - not energetics. The 5 elements each have a particular devestating martial application and in no way are they qigong - same for the animals.

 

The problem is that you have never been exposed to real neigong but only MA so in your experience what you say is true. Qigong and neigong is about the manipulation of energy; MA is about kicking someone's tail, incapacitate as quickly as possible - just 2 totally different things.

Again, you are like most who are exposed to qigong through MA - no idea about efficiency of energetics, great idea about posture, muscle development, force vectors, and moment arms. The efficiency is in these things - not energetics.

 

What you say about many Tai Chi forms is also what I was taught. Ol Chen Pan Ling looked at all the forms available from an engineer's perspective and "corrected" the moves back to optimum physics - correct moment arms and force vectors. Chen Pan Ling style Tai Jee is representative of what you say was "lost" in the forms.

 

Eh, the problem is that based on what you've written, I know that you've never practiced what I call nei kung. You try to relate (Chen Pan Ling for ex.) but you still missed the target. I feel you have a good grasp of all the sung qualities of qigong, but no knowledge of gunn to complete your work. Think of a powerlifter lifting 1000lbs, but without creating tension. That is only possible with true power, and it's impossible without a body full of qi. Without qi, there would be tension. Also, without tension there is qi. But the missing link is the hard work, that is what builds the power which can then be used for cultivating the body.

 

Note: all my statements are subject to change as my training progresses.

 

Meditation, nei kung, and martial arts were once just one thing. That's why I believe that real nei kung, real martial arts, and real meditation all include each other in any given moment in time of training.

 

If MA is about kicking someone's tail, then why are there even

*any* Internal Martial Arts? Doesn't make any sense.

 

IMA are for kicking someone's tail without kicking your own too.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Old Man Contradiction

[mindspring]

Wow... I seem to have started a rather intense debate. Oops.

 

That said, reading everyone's replies has been very enlightening. Now I see why qigong takes a lifetime of dedicated study.

 

I guess the important thing for me is to pick one system and practice diligently. My main concern is that the system I pick is the right one for me.

[Guest C Yu C He Taiji]

@Mal

I really love the video of your Sigong. Makes me want to learn Praying Mantis. Are there differences between different Mantis styles? I really like the short hand and leg combinations of the video.

 

I am defenitely an absolute beginner in martial arts and qigong/neigong, but what I have seen in my Wudang school is that the training gradually evolves from pure posture and alignment correction to the correction of the energetic body, it cannot be separated. Also what I have seen and heard from the Wudang teachers visiting our school, they have developed a really high level of energy manipulation through what most call "internal martial arts". Maybe the problem is simply the perception of what neigong is, we have some moving exercises that are called for example wuxing neigong in Wudang for generations and it probably is not what Yamu would call neigong.

One of the masters that impresses me again and again through his dedication, high level skill and youthful appearance is Wudang master You Xuande.

 

I wish everyone love peace and a long life

 

Chrisn

[lifeforce]

Meditation, nei kung, and martial arts were once just one thing. That's why I believe that real nei kung, real martial arts, and real meditation all include each other in any given moment in time of training.

 

 

You've just described Yiquan to the letter. Fantastic observation, and one that only comes through persistent training and hard work. Respect.

[jinjujitsu]

 

Meditation, nei kung, and martial arts were once just one thing. That's why I believe that real nei kung, real martial arts, and real meditation all include each other in any given moment in time of training

 

 

True True and True. Wish had realized this a good 30 years ago

[Ya Mu]

Eh, the problem is that based on what you've written, I know that you've never practiced what I call nei kung. You try to relate (Chen Pan Ling for ex.) but you still missed the target. I feel you have a good grasp of all the sung qualities of qigong, but no knowledge of gunn to complete your work. Think of a powerlifter lifting 1000lbs, but without creating tension. That is only possible with true power, and it's impossible without a body full of qi. Without qi, there would be tension. Also, without tension there is qi. But the missing link is the hard work, that is what builds the power which can then be used for cultivating the body.

 

Note: all my statements are subject to change as my training progresses.

 

Meditation, nei kung, and martial arts were once just one thing. That's why I believe that real nei kung, real martial arts, and real meditation all include each other in any given moment in time of training.

 

 

Dang, dude, I was trying to agree with you about the Tai Jee.

 

How old are you? Never mind, your posts betray your time of study and your age.

 

You do not understand qi. You think it is something that requires "make your body burn and sweat, and it should be painful". This is so totally wrong it is sad instead of funny. And your insinuation about me not knowing qigong is pathetic. Once you have practiced about 35 years look me up and we will have a real discussion about it.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Ya Mu

[Ya Mu]

Wow... I seem to have started a rather intense debate. Oops.

 

That said, reading everyone's replies has been very enlightening. Now I see why qigong takes a lifetime of dedicated study.

 

I guess the important thing for me is to pick one system and practice diligently. My main concern is that the system I pick is the right one for me.

You now can see some of the spectrum - vast isn't it?

Are there any teachers anywhere near you or within traveling distance to take a workshop? If so then you might wish to try what I am going to suggest. But the same thing will apply if you choose the more limited way of looking through correspondence or books/dvd's.

Once you have all your info together, sit down and still all thoughts. Ask your Higher Level self which of these are for you and see if at that instance you feel drawn to any particular thing. If you don't do it this way it will be a trial and error thing, which in itself is not bad. Do not stick with something that does not resonate with you. But then again, don't initially expect miracles to happen as it IS a lifetime practice. You asked about qigong. I would strongly suggest you investigate MA and qigong separately; if they overlap that is OK but it will be impossible for you to grasp the intricacies of either unless you look at them both.

Do not be afraid of making mistakes - this is one primary way of learning.

[Old Man Contradiction]

Dang, dude, I was trying to agree with you about the Tai Jee.

 

How old are you? Never mind, your posts betray your time of study and your age.

 

You do not understand qi. You think it is something that requires "make your body burn and sweat, and it should be painful". This is so totally wrong it is sad instead of funny. And your insinuation about me not knowing qigong is pathetic. Once you have practiced about 35 years look me up and we will have a real discussion about it.

 

Sorry man, I've tried the kind of stuff that I talked about at the very beginning of this thread and it just didn't do as much for me as my current work. Unfortunately, your quote of me implies many wrongs out of context.

 

But, okay that is a deal. I will practice another 35yrs, and maybe by a major stroke of luck I see your name again, than we'll talk. Trust me, if my beliefs are shattered by a philosophy resembling yours, I will get on the ground and kiss your toes. If not, than maybe we'll have a more constructive discussion than we did today.

[mindspring]

You now can see some of the spectrum - vast isn't it?

Are there any teachers anywhere near you or within traveling distance to take a workshop? If so then you might wish to try what I am going to suggest. But the same thing will apply if you choose the more limited way of looking through correspondence or books/dvd's.

Once you have all your info together, sit down and still all thoughts. Ask your Higher Level self which of these are for you and see if at that instance you feel drawn to any particular thing. If you don't do it this way it will be a trial and error thing, which in itself is not bad. Do not stick with something that does not resonate with you. But then again, don't initially expect miracles to happen as it IS a lifetime practice. You asked about qigong. I would strongly suggest you investigate MA and qigong separately; if they overlap that is OK but it will be impossible for you to grasp the intricacies of either unless you look at them both.

Do not be afraid of making mistakes - this is one primary way of learning.

 

Thanks for the advice, Ya Mu it has been very helpful.

 

After a few days of research, thinking and quiet reflection, I found myself drawn towards Spring Forest Qigong as it looks simple to follow and geared towards healing which I need at the moment. So I've ordered the home study course and will get started on that.

 

I will explore tai chi separately later on when I'm ready. As the saying goes, "when the student is ready the teacher will appear" so I will take things as they come.

[gendao]

great and simple explanation vortex, thx

 

what I don't exactly understand are two things:

- you need to know the path of channels, don't you ?

- how are transmutation of energy and third eye related to your explanation ?

- I don't think you really need to. But I haven't opened my 8 extraordinary channels myself yet...so who am I really to say?

 

- I believe the 3rd eye may open on its own eventually when your MCO opens. However, many neidan schools also focus on that "upper dantian" center as well.

 

Some methods have involved focusing on different centers as you progress through different phases of opening..

The early emphasis was on the Ming Men or Life Gate and as the adept became more advanced, the focus went to each Dan Tian in turn.

 

"Drawing The Light Inward" is another advanced meditation practiced after a foundation in Internal Alchemy and is a synthesis of the practices of the Complete Reality and Highest Purity schools. The Light is gathered into three spots, the eyes and the mysterious cavity or third eye. Thus the lights of the sun, moon and stars were united with the light inside, dissolving the barrier between the internal universe of the adept and the external universe of the cosmos, nourishing his body and making it weightless and the mind clear and empty. In the ecstatic state thus produced, practitioners merge with the primordial energy of the Tao.

 

"Returning to Earlier Heaven " was only practiced by the The Way of Earlier Heaven sect (Xian Tian Tao). There are seven stages, each involving focusing on and transforming a cavity. First is the lower cavity, the centre of the lower Tan Tian, about two and a half inches below the navel. Second is the front cavity, the Sea of Chi about one inch below the navel. Third is the back cavity, the Life Gate (Ming Men), a point on the spinal column between the kidneys. Fourth is the middle cavity, the centre of the middle Dan Tian at the solar plexus, also known as the Central Palace or Yellow Palace. Fifth is the upper cavity, at the upper Dan Tian, between the eyes, which is called the Bright Hall. These first five cavities open the Microcosmic Orbit. The sixth and lowest cavity is the Bubbling Spring cavity at the sole of the foot and when this stage is complete, the Macrocosmic Orbit opens. The final cavity is the original cavity, also known as the Mysterious Gate, Earlier Heaven Gate, Wu Chi (No Ultimate) and only materialises when the original spirit is conceived and it is the gate to union with the Tao.

 

The first six stages involve form and action in focusing on specific cavities and is called After Heaven (Hou Tian) Meditation because it acts on the body and mind after the separation of Heaven and Earth. In stage seven there is no form or action because the Original Cavity cannot be localised and focused on and it is called Earlier Heaven Meditation because it works on a body and mind connected with the Tao. Returning to Earlier Heaven requires specific postures and sitting cross legged in a half or full lotus. The postures are rigorous because equal importance is placed on cultivating the body and the mind. The hand positions include sitting with the hands on the knees and holding them together to form a Tai Chi symbol, or supporting the body on the knuckles while in a full lotus.