Confused

[bindo]

Thank you so much, you actually just reminded me of a question I was looking to asking. Can you help me with the three different "versions" of Taoism? In one of the books I read it said that theythere is Philosophical Taoism, Religious Taoism, and Practicing Taoism. The book didn't really go into any more detail than just naming them. I looked into it a bit but I got some mixed answers and was wondering if anyone here had any ideas on it?

I usually categorize them like this;

Religious Taoism is just that... a religion, with specific beliefs about the heavens, gods and deities, occult practices, etc.

 

Philosophical Taoism might be practiced by those interested more in the quality of life, and make the various Taoist principles and practices in to a complete way of life. It is their full time "occupation", and is often practiced away from society, in nature. They might live in a temple with others, or alone in a cave. Self sufficient. Not depending on the outside world, or very little anyway. Not entirely different than Religious Taoism, but not limited by it and it's man made belief systems and practices. More concerned with tapping in to the unlimited potential of the individual, physically, mentally, and spiritually.

 

It's difficult to define Philosophical Taoism because it's definition is very broad and may be practiced in various ways.

 

Living Taoism is what many of us on this forum do. We try to incorporate Taoist principles and practices into our everyday lives while fully interacting with society.

We have regular jobs, spouses, children, etc.

 

I am anything but an expert on Taoism and I'm sure others here will have different ideas or at least be able to define them better than I have.

Edited February 26, 2010 by bindo

[gendao]

Thank you so much, you actually just reminded me of a question I was looking to asking. Can you help me with the three different "versions" of Taoism? In one of the books I read it said that theythere is Philosophical Taoism, Religious Taoism, and Practicing Taoism. The book didn't really go into any more detail than just naming them. I looked into it a bit but I got some mixed answers and was wondering if anyone here had any ideas on it?

Philosophical Taoism concerns studies of the overall philosophical ideology of Taoism - mainly as elucidated by the Dao De Jing (sort of the ad brochure for Taoism - that talks ABOUT, but doesn't actually tell you HOW). Great stuff for beginners or dabblers, but ultimately mental masturbation until you can reach the same level of realization as the author, to really get what he wrote about.

 

Religious Taoism focuses on the devotional veneration of and interaction with legendary Taoists in their spirit forms. But I don't think anyone here is very familiar with this branch.

 

Practising Taoism is the nuts & bolts methods by which individual Taoists personally seek "liberation" ("immortality" & enlightenment). Neidan is the primary esoteric practice for this, for which a number of actual "How To" guides have been written that methodically outline the basic steps to be taken. And although most of these ancient Chinese classics are still relatively obscure in Western "pop Daoism," they nonetheless eclipse the Dao De Jing in importance for practising Taoists. This branch is thus more for "serious" practitioners with far more than just a passing interest in Taoism.

 

 

Well, if you do ever meet up with drewhempel, please give us a feedback report if you happen to experience any interesting sensations..

Edited February 26, 2010 by vortex

[Makyea]

Philosophical Taoism concerns studies of the overall philosophical ideology of Taoism - mainly as elucidated by the Dao De Jing (sort of the ad brochure for Taoism - that talks ABOUT, but doesn't actually tell you HOW). Great stuff for beginners or dabblers, but ultimately mental masturbation until you can reach the same level of realization as the author, to really get what he wrote about.

 

Religious Taoism focuses on the devotional veneration of and interaction with legendary Taoists in their spirit forms. But I don't think anyone here is very familiar with this branch.

 

Practising Taoism is the nuts & bolts methods by which individual Taoists personally seek "liberation" ("immortality" & enlightenment). Neidan is the primary esoteric practice for this, for which a number of actual "How To" guides have been written that methodically outline the basic steps to be taken. And although most of these ancient Chinese classics are still relatively obscure in Western "pop Daoism," they nonetheless eclipse the Dao De Jing in importance for practising Taoists. This branch is thus more for "serious" practitioners with far more than just a passing interest in Taoism.

 

 

Well, if you do ever meet up with drewhempel, please give us a feedback report if you happen to experience any interesting sensations..

Thanks that helps plenty. I understand so much more now.

 

Haha, I doubt he will agree to teach me though as much as I wish he would. Seems pretty interesting.

[Tao99]

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tao99

[Creation]

Makyea,

 

Here is my 2 cents on the different types of Taoism.

 

In prehistoric China, as in all cultures, there were those who sought to understand everything inside of them and around them. These were the proto-Taoists, so to speak.

 

In the turbulent time of the Warring States, the literati argued about how society should be structured: the individual, society, the government: how should they relate. The books Tao Te Ching and Chuang tzu come from this time, and are the foundation of Philosophical Taoism. They were written by sages who were concerned with the natural world and the individual as much as society, so they were very much in the tradition of what I called proto-Taoists, as opposed to, say, Confucius (who also lived during this time) who was concerned mainly with human society and culture.

 

There were other heirs of the "proto-Taoists". They were the Shamans who, through their investigations, learned how to influence natural forces and the world of spirits. People would come to them for healing or any other kind of spiritual aid they wanted. Sometimes, when the political situation was particularly bad, such a charismatic Taoist shaman would unite people under his banner and rebel against the Emperor. The Yellow Turban Rebellion is an example of this type of thing. It's leader, Zhang Jiao, was reputed to be a powerful sorcerer.

 

One such Taoist Shaman, Zhang Daoling, founded a movement called the Way of the Celestial Masters, and it quickly caught on with the common people. It gained a huge following, and due to some political events it spread all over China. So in this way there became an "official" Taoist priesthood, a hierarchy and standardized training for priests, as opposed to local isolated shamans. The services offered by priests included dispensing magic talismans, performing exorcisms, and interceding with deities (who are really powerful spirit beings, rather than one supreme creator, perhaps sort of like archangels in the Judeo-Christian tradition) Modern religious Taoism derives from this movement. There is a connection with philosophical Taoism other than common connection to ancient Chinese mysticism though. Zhang Daoling claimed that Lao Tzu appeared to him and passed teachings on to him, and in that tradition Lao Tzu is considered to be an incarnation of one of the highset Taoist deities.

 

I don't quite know what your textbook meant by practical Taoism. It could have meant all the various arts that Taoist created: feng shui, astrology, traditional Chinese medicine, internal martial arts, etc. Or it could mean what I call "Monastic Taoism", which is the Way of cultivating one's self to the highest levels of spiritual development. You don't necessarily need to do this to be a priest in religious Taoism, or if you subscribe to the views about society espoused by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Yet even though the three are different, there is continuity between them, something that is often overlooked by Western scholars.

[Creation]

Anyway,

 

You asked for information on Taoism, then said what you really wanted was to get a spiritual practice started, and have gotten TONS of recommendations of books, practices, websites, what religions to consider other than Taoism, what religions not to be , why the people who said what religions not to be are wrong :lol: , a recommendation to go see a guy who can give orgasms at a distance (solely for the amusement of some forum members it would seem), and probably a whole lot more random stuff that you didn't see coming.

 

How is your search going? Is there anything that you have followed up on that you think looks promising? Do you have a more clear picture of what you really want?

 

If you are really interested in learning about Taoism, read the books I recommended . This is a separate issue from finding a practice, but if you do choose a Taoist practice it will help to understand some the culture. It would also be very benificial to understand vocabulary I gave you. For example, to understand the stuff about diet, etc. that was confusing you you need to learn about the five phases (wu xing) and how they relate to food, organs, emotions, yearly cycles etc.

 

Oh, by the way, this site has some great stuff but it can be hard to find. Here is something that might help with that:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/9183-taoism-taobums-faq/

Edited February 27, 2010 by Creation

[~jK~]

Thank you so much, you actually just reminded me of a question I was looking to asking. Can you help me with the three different "versions" of Taoism? In one of the books I read it said that theythere is Philosophical Taoism, Religious Taoism, and Practicing Taoism. The book didn't really go into any more detail than just naming them. I looked into it a bit but I got some mixed answers and was wondering if anyone here had any ideas on it?

 

Well I do have two brothers. What is your friends name?

His name is Rodney but we call him Rod 'cause he's always talking about fishing. The last I talked to him, about 10 years ago, he still lived in Savannah, Ga. I moved to Hong Kong and kinda lost touch...

 

There is this about: Philosophical Taoism, Religious Taoism, and Practicing Taoism - but it's kinda long: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

 

From what I see in Hong Kong -

Religious Taoist temples have a lot to do with Ancestor worship as Reincarnation is real.

Philosophical Taoism is practiced as going with the flow, the binary sides of perspective and points like listed on this website: http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com/bits.html

As for the Practicing Taoism - it can only be living the Taoist way - the foods, the exercises, the medicine, the meditation, etc. There are female Taoists but rare - I've only seen one in 10 years. Buddhist nuns are fairly common although not as many as there are Buddhist monks.

This lady,Elizabeth Reninger, About.com Guide, writes quite a bit about Taoism - I think she has a degree or 2 in it - here is a webpage by her to get you started on Taoist hollidays as Taoism is largely about the timings of the Universe. http://taoism.about.com/od/holidays/a/holidays2010.htm

[markern]

His name is Rodney but we call him Rod 'cause he's always talking about fishing. The last I talked to him, about 10 years ago, he still lived in Savannah, Ga. I moved to Hong Kong and kinda lost touch...

 

There is this about: Philosophical Taoism, Religious Taoism, and Practicing Taoism - but it's kinda long: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

 

From what I see in Hong Kong -

Religious Taoist temples have a lot to do with Ancestor worship as Reincarnation is real.

Philosophical Taoism is practiced as going with the flow, the binary sides of perspective and points like listed on this website: http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com/bits.html

As for the Practicing Taoism - it can only be living the Taoist way - the foods, the exercises, the medicine, the meditation, etc. There are female Taoists but rare - I've only seen one in 10 years. Buddhist nuns are fairly common although not as many as there are Buddhist monks.

This lady,Elizabeth Reninger, About.com Guide, writes quite a bit about Taoism - I think she has a degree or 2 in it - here is a webpage by her to get you started on Taoist hollidays as Taoism is largely about the timings of the Universe. http://taoism.about.com/od/holidays/a/holidays2010.htm

 

 

Why so few women? any theories?

[~jK~]

Why so few women? any theories?

In the Tao, the life of women is not theirs to choose during their child bearing years as During their child bearing years - their life belongs not to them but to their children/family or to their hopes for children/family ...

[tyler zambori]

In the Tao, the life of women is not theirs to choose during their child bearing years as During their child bearing years - their life belongs not to them but to their children/family or to their hopes for children/family ...

 

 

And I guess men's lives are not their own either because they have to support everyone else.

 

How long a go have we moved past these traditional ways of seeing things?

Geez. It doesn't have much to do with reality, especially not with the reality

of the "nuclear family" these days.

[gendao]

And I guess men's lives are not their own either because they have to support everyone else.

 

How long a go have we moved past these traditional ways of seeing things?

Geez. It doesn't have much to do with reality, especially not with the reality

of the "nuclear family" these days.

I agree. The male role is far more burdensome in Asia because he is the sole provider for his nuclear, as well as extended family. So, since that's not any easier than the female role, then it shouldn't make the difference.

 

This topic has actually come up before here when people made the same observation about this site - and the small minority of women here too.

 

I think Taoism may just come off as too philosophical to most women - and women are typically not interested in philosophy. Also, a lot of women prefer more company or devoting themselves to gurus (Indian gurus, Muhammad or Jesus) - whereas Taoism is more about self-development in solitude with no big alpha deity to bow down to. Additionally, a lot of males start off chasing MoPai-type siddhic powers...and women are less apt to desire that.

 

Creation - FAN-f'n-tastic posts!

[markern]

I agree. The male role is far more burdensome in Asia because he is the sole provider for his nuclear, as well as extended family. So, since that's not any easier than the female role, then it shouldn't make the difference.

 

This topic has actually come up before here when people made the same observation about this site - and the small minority of women here too.

 

I think Taoism may just come off as too philosophical to most women - and women are typically not interested in philosophy. Also, a lot of women prefer more company or devoting themselves to gurus (Indian gurus, Muhammad or Jesus) - whereas Taoism is more about self-development in solitude with no big alpha deity to bow down to. Additionally, a lot of males start off chasing MoPai-type siddhic powers...and women are less apt to desire that.

 

Creation - FAN-f'n-tastic posts!

 

 

What you say sounds very plausible. In addition you have the whole martial arts connection. Seems like it is philosophy and martial arts that bring people to the TAo (in the west at least) so that should bring mroe men.

[Ya Mu]

I agree. The male role is far more burdensome in Asia because he is the sole provider for his nuclear, as well as extended family. So, since that's not any easier than the female role, then it shouldn't make the difference.

 

This topic has actually come up before here when people made the same observation about this site - and the small minority of women here too.

 

I think Taoism may just come off as too philosophical to most women - and women are typically not interested in philosophy. Also, a lot of women prefer more company or devoting themselves to gurus (Indian gurus, Muhammad or Jesus) - whereas Taoism is more about self-development in solitude with no big alpha deity to bow down to. Additionally, a lot of males start off chasing MoPai-type siddhic powers...and women are less apt to desire that.

 

Creation - FAN-f'n-tastic posts!

 

I have more female students than male. Females do REALLY well with Practicing Taoism.

[Creation]

And then, what about female lineage holders?

How about female lineage creators? Lady Wei Huacun and Lady Sun Buer come to mind.

 

Female Taoist teachers that are well regarded around here include Jenny Lamb and Kathy Li.

 

[Ya Mu]

Shucks... from all the women, thanks Ya Mu!

 

Do you think this means there will be an increase in female teachers in the near future? I seem to notice a good amount of advanced male teachers, but not so much female. And then, what about female lineage holders? Immortal sister's story is good to hear. Anyone who can add info/speak about other female tao teachers/instructors, please do, as I am a newbie. Thanks.

I would put my female students up against any program's male or female students - they just are damn good at it. I think it has to do with sensitivity being easier for female. There are a goodly number of female teachers. Some awesome female qigong practitioners that I know are Damaris Jarboux, Daisey Lee, Kathleen Dubay, and a few that are not public so I will not mention their names. Damaris has a multi-year qigong certification program in Boulder, Kathleen does private instruction in Boulder (they both do qigong healing) and Daisey Lee teaches all over the world but based in Hawaii.

 

I told this story before so I will try to condense it and hope to get it right after all these years. One of my female students decided to attend one of the conventions on qigong that attract the top name folks in USA as well as Europe, China and Russia. She attended one of the 2-day workshops there and was partnered up with one of the famous qigong authors (the class was taught by one of the famous Chinese qigong guys. This particular qigong guy is a nice guy who I like but I noticed (I was in same workshop) that he was being somewhat condescending to my student. When it came time for her to project qi to him you should have seen the look on his face - priceless! He was stammering where where did you learn how to do that do you know how powerful you are - etc... She took it all in stride as she is very low key. But I walked outside and laughed until I hurt.

[gendao]

I have more female students than male. Females do REALLY well with Practicing Taoism.

Very true, definitely way more females into the energetic healing arts (in the West). This also includes Reiki, etc. Could be due to the stereotypical "nurturing" tendency.

 

Sort of a polar contrast to males being more interested in the martial arts applications.

 

As far as neidan though, I would say there are far more males interested in personal alchemy. Although that can depend in some cases too - as women seemed to take to Kunlun more. However, that is also a nontraditional alchemy marketed in a very contemporary fashion. So, I do think it is interesting how different classes attract different types of people..

Edited March 1, 2010 by vortex

[Athanor]

Alright so I know minimum about Taoism. I know almost nothing about meditation and its purpose. I am completly confused on the whole diet thing. Basically, can you guys help me learn all this stuff? I feel so far behind. I do not mean for you all to tell me everything there is to know because I know how its beneficial to figure things out on your own or reading them but this would help. So here are some questions that I can not find answers to.

 

What sets apart the three different types of Taoism?

What is cultivation?

What is the stuff about sexual energy and holding back ejaculation?

Is there a set list of foods you can not eat as a Taoist?

Are there any books I should read that will explain general ideas and finer detail on certain subjects? Like meditation, energy, Taoism's history, other beliefs, food, and anything else a Taoist should know?

 

I would love to know as much about this as possible so please post as much on any or all of these subject as you can. Even a small detail, list of vocab, or anything would help me.

Taoism is not about knowing. It's about being. Not about being a taoist; just about being. In a way as it corresponds to nature. Read about wu wei to understand this concept.

Meditation basics is to focus on the present, and let your memories about the past and expectations about the future flow away. Keep your mind empty, filled with the present. And don't try to grasp this logically

It's a wonderful thing once you let go of the desire for knowledge. Hard too.

The main problem during taoist practice is that it contradicts with the way of civilized life. The reason for this is that civilized life contradicts to nature's flow. You have to find the balance in your own life, how far do you want to dig into taoism, and how much do you want to cling on your civilized life. This is of utter importance, for if you have doubt about your spiritual path fitting into your life then you won't make progress. The best is when you don't distinguish a spiritual path and a life anymore.

I think it's best to grasp the whole concept in general before getting involved into details. You can easily lose contact with the purpose of this whole thing if you dig into Mantak Chia's dozens of books and videos about taoist health and such... IMO it's completely unnecessary at the beginning.

Good luck.

[SFJane]

 

What sets apart the three different types of Taoism?

What is cultivation?

What is the stuff about sexual energy and holding back ejaculation?

Is there a set list of foods you can not eat as a Taoist?

Are there any books I should read that will explain general ideas and finer detail on certain subjects? Like meditation, energy, Taoism's history, other beliefs, food, and anything else a Taoist should know?

 

 

 

Hi Makyea,

 

I thought I might add a few thoughts to the discussion.

 

The three different types of Taoism have been fairly well covered. Myself, I have zero interest in religious Taoism and only passing interest in philosophical Taoism. I practice the esoteric aspects.

 

Cultivation may mean different things to different practitioners. In a nutshell, Cultivation really means to be mindful of and nourish. For myself, I cultivate The Three Treasures. Jing, Chi and Shen.

 

Very simply: Jing is bodily fluids. Chi is both the electrochemical reactions in our body and our awareness. Shen is our spirit.

 

Sexual energy practices can be fun. It is not necessary to know a single one of these techniques to get as far as you will ever desire to go with meditation. I definitely consider sexual energy techniques to be advanced and as such, don't worry about learning them until you've had years of practice. Learn them as a curiosity, to see if you can take your practice to another level.

 

On the nature of food I feel very strongly that you should not worry about it. The word 'must' was used earlier in a reply post to you. With all due respect to that poster, there is very little you must do in Taoism aside from relax, let go and breathe naturally.

 

With that said, diet can have a profound effect on your practice. My advice is to forget what all the books say and experientially, ontologically if you will, find out for yourself. Don't worry about what other people are doing diet wise. At some point, experiment on yourself and find out what foods work for you.

 

In my practice over the years I've done everything from raw food vegan diet and outright fasting to eating like a little pig, anything I want. The important thing is to listen internally very carefully to what food does to your thoughts and feelings. You may find, as I did, that juice fasting and long meditation sits go very well together. I personally don't like spicy food. I don't go out of my way to avoid spices but I do not eat foods like mexican or thai. It just makes my insides go crazy.

 

When it comes to books and ideas, I am very biased.

 

I started learning meditation and chi kung from Bruce Frantzis in my early 20s. Like you, I didn't have a lot of money. I wanted to take every retreat this guy was offering but it would take months to save up for just one on my wages working blue collar in the Industrial sector.

 

I like some of Mantak Chia and Yang Jwing Ming's stuff but hands down, as far as I am concerned, Mr Frantzis is The Man when it comes it understanding and teaching esoteric Taoism to Westerners. Some of his books have already been recommended, 'Relaxing into your Being' and so on. Bruce's books were my bibles for many years and I was able, not only to heal myself of some serious neurological damage in my spine and arms but I conquered 17 years of depression and insanity within five years of training with Bruce. I'm not even one his better students or certified or anything like that. Bruce's teachings were a ball that I picked up and ran with on my own and I got amazing results from my practice. Enough to write an entire book about.

 

Some of the other suggestions were good too. Once, I got myself hugely motivated to learn the I Ching and the Tao Te Ching from an academic, scholastic point of view but ultimately, I dropped all that instead to pursue real personal practice more than anything. I am especially fond of tai chi, ba gua circle walking, chi kung standing and sitting practices.

 

I understand there are some very good books out there and some of the teachers named here come very highly recommended. But in my opinion, you could go as far as you ever wanted by purchasing Master Frantzis CDs and books on Longevity breathing, water method dissolving and opening the energy gates of your body. Take those books and cds along with your portable CD player out into the woods. Find a nice tree to lean against and start taking those lessons, one at a time and practice. Later, when you do eventually take a gander at texts like TTC you'll find that your practice has given you insights into some of those passages. Which is really exciting when it happens.

 

I wish you all the best in your journey.

Edited March 2, 2010 by SFJane

[Guest paul walter]

I quit reading Drew's posts (who sometimes comes across as well educated and informed on certain matters) after hearing him rant on about and proclaim his twisted and sick obsessions and abilities related to sex and black-magic like manipulations, regardless of any "full-lotus" co-opting B.S.! (and I don't know much about how others around here feel but to me such goes far beyond ocassional adult jokes and or goofy posts on sex)

 

Anyway and apparently sick sex posts are seldom moderated around here because (?) of some kind of pretense related to quasi-sophisticated, brains falling out the head spectrum of views related to Taoism held by this organization and some of it's members? Thus if you guys want to moderate me for being a party pooper - no big deal - no big loss - I know that what can be garbage to one person can be a treasure to another, and if sick sex posts are entertaining and instructional to the balance of the members and moderators here then I won't be around long even if there are some fine people that do drop by here.

 

Om

 

 

Here here, 3bob--you're not alone in your headspace on this. Paul.

[Mal]