Confused

[Makyea]

To have one on one contact with a teacher is the best for sure IMO. You can get a whole different level of guidance. I have one that is perfect for me but he is the only one amongst quite a lot of people I have met that I would even consider having an intense student teacher relationship with. Still I will also learn from other people and reading and use my own judgment. For sure I will go on retreats around the world and for the duration of the retreat I will follow what the teachers say and possibly get guidance from them later on. That is quite normal. I would never under any circumstance have a "guru" in the traditional indian sense with almost complete obedience towards him or her and I view all this as MY process were I am the judge at all times. I am willing to put a lot of trust in what a teacher I deem trustworthy says, especially when it comes to the technical aspects of energetic stuff but beyond that they would ave to convince me and I will not do things I feel is not right for me to do. A lot of people leave their own judgment when they get a teacher.

 

I think you live quite close to Ya Mu (Michael Lomax) realtively speaking so doing a retreat with him seems like a good option. He teaches a traditional taoist system that has gotten very good reviews at this board. To me it seems very safe and balanced and effective from what I read. I have also gotten healings from him that were good. I also think his many posts here on this forum shows him to be very sensible in his opinions. He is also a teacher that does not require guru like obedience of any sort but more of a normal teacher/guide. His system can be learnt during a weekend workshop. THen you practice it for a long time and then you do another weekend workshop and learn a bit mroe advanced stuff. What you could do is read through his posts on this forum and see if he resonates with you. If you click on his user you can choose the view users posts option and see through as many as you like. You could also read his book which should teach you a lot about what you want to know about qigong and taoism. And you can try out his Gift of Tao DVD to test out some of his qigong before deceiding. If you look at one of his posts you will see a link to his book ad DVD.

Thank you I will take a look at all that. I think I would prefer to stay away from the whole guru thing as well.

[tyler zambori]

.. diatribe to.

 

 

it's OK that you feel that way

[Makyea]

it's OK that you feel that way

Tyler what do you practice? How did you get started? Why did you start?

[tyler zambori]

Tyler what do you practice? How did you get started? Why did you start?

 

Hi Makyea,

 

I will PM you, thanks.

[goldisheavy]

Alright so I know minimum about Taoism. I know almost nothing about meditation and its purpose. I am completly confused on the whole diet thing. Basically, can you guys help me learn all this stuff? I feel so far behind. I do not mean for you all to tell me everything there is to know because I know how its beneficial to figure things out on your own or reading them but this would help. So here are some questions that I can not find answers to.

 

What sets apart the three different types of Taoism?

What is cultivation?

What is the stuff about sexual energy and holding back ejaculation?

Is there a set list of foods you can not eat as a Taoist?

Are there any books I should read that will explain general ideas and finer detail on certain subjects? Like meditation, energy, Taoism's history, other beliefs, food, and anything else a Taoist should know?

 

I would love to know as much about this as possible so please post as much on any or all of these subject as you can. Even a small detail, list of vocab, or anything would help me.

 

What I don't understand is why would you want to learn about something that you have no clue about? Since you have no clue whatsoever about Taoism, I take it you were not interested in it to begin with. Suddenly you seem to be interested. Why the change? And now that you are interested, why are you asking on a forum, from people who might themselves be misguided, instead of going to the primary sources, such as reading Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu: The Inner Chapters, for example?

 

I hope you find all the answers you seek, but motivation is as important as that which you're looking for.

[goldisheavy]

Do you think that having a teacher is better than attending classes? I read that Taoists think view travel as wasteful, so does that mean that if one were to go to another country(such as China) for spiritual guidance would they be looked down upon?

 

The best thing you can do is to begin looking at your beliefs and values with a critical eye. By critical I don't mean to say that everything you believe and value is bad. I simply mean that you should be in position of authority and responsibility over the contents of your own mind. So in the way I use the word "critical" I do not imply "negative". If anything, you should be your own friend and not your own enemy.

 

Once you are free to examine all the various beliefs, values, habits, patterns in your life, how they appeared to you, why do you maintain them and so on, you will begin to see that you are better than 90% of all the spiritual teachers right then and there. Why is that? It's because most teachers neither question their own beliefs, nor do they teach anyone to question anything. Most teachers spread dogma in a format that prohibits and discourages questioning. And a curious and questioning attitude is a precursor to true freedom and fulfillment (although it's a long road even with such attitude).

 

Now, with regard to travel, what the old sages really meant is this (I am speaking authoritatively on this issue because I believe I understand it 100%). They meant that all our problems stem from how our minds are structured. To understand the flaws that inhibit us, we don't need to go to another country. Simply turning your attention inward is the answer and the key to wisdom. That doesn't mean traveling is bad. Traveling is neither here nor there. The point is, if you are not already looking at the contents of your own mind, it won't matter and it won't help you to go to China, but if you already are looking, then again, it won't help you to go to China, because all that a good Chuang Tzu-like sage would tell you in China, is just that -- examine your own mind and be careful of the assumption you make. Assumptions about yourself, about reality, about the inner and the outer worlds, about the distinctions between them and so on.

 

As I said before, you should at least read both Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu, just to know when the so-called "taoist" teachers are peddling bullshit. If something a so-called "Taoist" teacher says is not in accord with Chuang Tzu, you can be pretty sure it's BS, at least from the point of view of the orthodox Taoism, which is defined by its founders, such as Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Not everything called "othodox" is great or correct or useful. But at least you would understand what the founders' attitudes were compared to the people who teach "taoism" now. If nothing else, when these teachers deviate, they should explain themselves, why do they call themselves "taoist"?

Edited February 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[tyler zambori]

What I don't understand is why would you want to learn about something that you have no clue about? Since you have no clue whatsoever about Taoism, I take it you were not interested in it to begin with. Suddenly you seem to be interested. Why the change? And now that you are interested, why are you asking on a forum, from people who might themselves be misguided, instead of going to the primary sources, such as reading Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu: The Inner Chapters, for example?

 

I hope you find all the answers you seek, but motivation is as important as that which you're looking for.

 

Personally, I've found it useful already to do the same, although I do have the TTC now.

On the practical level, it helps to get book recommendations and such, and these things

can be found by doing some searching in addition to asking.

 

I have already edited my "books to buy" list quite a bit, and have been re-prioritizing it.

I find it helpful to get started with something clear and practical that a person could get

started with right away. Scriptures are good too, but it takes time to get into this.

[goldisheavy]

Personally, I've found it useful already to do the same, although I do have the TTC now.

On the practical level, it helps to get book recommendations and such, and these things

can be found by doing some searching in addition to asking.

 

I have already edited my "books to buy" list quite a bit, and have been re-prioritizing it.

I find it helpful to get started with something clear and practical that a person could get

started with right away. Scriptures are good too, but it takes time to get into this.

 

All our problems in life come from this idea that we need to always be practical. In reality 90% of our actions are guided by fear, so the idea of practicality is one that's conditioned by fear and ignorance. So it's hard to penetrate this veil of bullshit if you are always practical. It's good to be practical in a manner that doesn't make you dogmatically or blindly practical. Sometimes it pays to stop whatever it is you think you should be doing and reflect for a moment. Don't just keep jumping. Stop. Ask yourself if there is another way. Maybe there is a ladder nearby and all your "practical" jumping attempts are just stupid? A lot of stupidity hides under the guise of practicality.

[Guest paul walter]

A lot of stupidity hides under the guise of practicality.

 

 

And all evil.

[Makyea]

What I don't understand is why would you want to learn about something that you have no clue about? Since you have no clue whatsoever about Taoism, I take it you were not interested in it to begin with. Suddenly you seem to be interested. Why the change? And now that you are interested, why are you asking on a forum, from people who might themselves be misguided, instead of going to the primary sources, such as reading Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu: The Inner Chapters, for example?

 

I hope you find all the answers you seek, but motivation is as important as that which you're looking for.

What you said doesn't make any sense. Haha, how can I learn things about something I know all about? I said I read about it in a textbook and I really agreed with what it said. In the textbook it said nothing about the Tao Te Ching or any other texts. I did some googling but decided that I should find people who practiced it themselves. I did not ask just one person because faith and other thngs like it should not justbe based off a system just because. I believe that if someone has found flaws in something but highly agrees with other points has taken their time to disect it and base it off themselves and that to me is real faith. I do think that you can completly agree with a system of belief but I would love to hear how others interpet things misguided or not they have to have a reason to think what they do, right? I asked for books and things to read because I wanted to learn more than what was in my books. Just because I didn't decided to jump right into a text I knew nothing about really does not mean I lack motivation. There was no change though. I had just read it when I found this site and decided I agreed.

I do see where you could think I lack motivationbut trust me I am spending a lot of time reading everything I can find and things that people give me. I have a whole notebook filled with information I have gathered, and tons of webpages saved for reference. I was told not to take in to much information so I am trying my best to pace myself. I am starting by reading the Tao Te Ching then the Tao of Pooh & the Te of Piglet(a friend suggested I read them) along with a couple webpages I was told to look at. I might be attending some workshops soon as well. So I don't know if this still means I lack proper motivation, and if you think I do or if you belive I am doing something wrong let me know. I don't really know any other ways to go about this without a person to guide or teach me.

[goldisheavy]

I do see where you could think I lack motivation but trust me I am spending a lot of time reading everything I can find and things that people give me.

 

No, no, no. LACK?? I never said or even tried to imply you lacked motivation. The most important thing about motivation is not quantity but quality. I don't mean to say you lack passion or drive. My point was more to the quality of motivation, the why. Why Taoism? I'm not saying "you don't love or strive after Taoism hard enough."

 

If you explained the motivation behind your search, it would help to have an intelligent discussion. I am going to take a totally different tack with someone who comes to Taoism seeking longer orgasms compared to someone who comes to Taoism seeking wisdom. Some people's motivation amounts to nothing more than blind fear. For example, people are worried that their diet is not in tune with Nature enough, so they seek some (what they think is) naturalistic advice on diet. They want to get all scientific about their diet because they are afraid of their bodies becoming unglued, etc. They don't give a shit about wisdom. These folks just want their bodies nice and strong so that they can subject themselves to more stupidity and abuse. Other people like the idea of immortality and come to Taoism because they have heard of Taoist immortals. I have totally different things to say to these variously motivated individuals.

 

So my point is, if I know what motivates you, the quality of your motivation (and not quantity), then I can try to be more useful and helpful in how I talk to you.

Edited February 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[jinjujitsu]

It's OK that a number of people in real life do not share my opinion.

 

...............and why are enlightened people still bound by their cultures?

I don't have an answer for that - I have just observed that unfortunately they

are. Just my two cents.

 

Clearly you have a bias against the Hindus and one very clearly propagated by British in the late 18th century. Caste and its evils were simply a distortion of a social system blown out of proportion by European scholars. There were pros and cons and those who wanted to attack, chose this as their main reason. Buddhists did that and later the colonizing Europeans, to their own advantage. That's quite irrelevant here IMO. The cultural and philosophical exchanges between Hindus and Buddhists has been too much to distinguish one from the other and it is easy to see that Buddhists borrowed much from Hindus than the other way round. If you read critique of Tibetan Buddhism by several Theravada teachers in 70s and 80s, this exactly was their problem with the Tibetan Buddhists and their morphed Hindu Tantra with Bon elements and a Buddhistic interpretation. Prof Alexis Sanderson has done serious and dedicated study in this area and you will benefit from studying him. I would suggest you seriously need to re-consider the crap you have been reading lol!

 

You need to do some serious study before you make some such half-assed comments based on of all the people G Samuel. Lol

Edited February 22, 2010 by jinjujitsu

[tyler zambori]

Clearly you have a bias against the Hindus and one very clearly propagated by British in the late 18th century. Caste and its evils were simply a distortion of a social system blown out of proportion by European scholars. There were pros and cons and those who wanted to attack, chose this as their main reason. Buddhists did that and later the colonizing Europeans, to their own advantage. That's quite irrelevant here IMO. The cultural and philosophical exchanges between Hindus and Buddhists has been too much to distinguish one from the other and it is easy to see that Buddhists borrowed much from Hindus than the other way round. If you read critique of Tibetan Buddhism by several Theravada teachers in 70s and 80s, this exactly was their problem with the Tibetan Buddhists and their morphed Hindu Tantra with Bon elements and a Buddhistic interpretation. Prof Alexis Sanderson has done serious and dedicated study in this area and you will benefit from studying him. I would suggest you seriously need to re-consider the crap you have been reading lol!

 

You need to do some serious study before you make some such half-assed comments based on of all the people G Samuel. Lol

 

 

Wow you really know a lot more than a professor who they let lecture at Oxford, who has also

done serious and dedicated study. I don't think your favorite writer's Betascript Publishing

comes up to the standard of Cambridge University press.

 

If cast was blown out of proportion by the British, why are they still having problems

with that even after the British are gone? And why were they having problems

with it way before the British got there? They used to be even worse - at one point in their history, any Brahmin who traveled outside of a Hindu area, had to physically purify himself before he would be allowed back in, because of having had contact with those unpure non-Hindus. That is just plain creepy dysfunctional ethnocentrism, and it sunk into the culture and stayed there, and influenced everything. Sounds to me like you are the one who needs a lot more education, but you already think they are "the great ones."

 

Your argument is all over the place,you already have shown your own bias, and it looks to me like you're just mad that I don't love them as much as you do. Learn not to be so co-dependent, will you? This is not a Hindu forum, so maybe you should go to one where nobody will say anything against the Hindus.

 

What is it with the self-righteousness around here? I'm noticing quite a bit of it today.

Edited February 22, 2010 by tyler zambori

[jinjujitsu]

Tyler,

 

I am a busy person and would like to engage only in constructive talk. It seems to be that you have long left that track. I have nothing more to say to you. Also, how do you know my credentials? I am a research scholar of several years myself and have 40+ publications better read than the ones you name, also serving as text books. Flaunting two doctorates would probably help to make your kinds pay a little more attention to others, but that's not really my point here. I expect to be heard based on the validity of what I say and not my credentials which are secondary. While you have been sitting here passing judgments based on what bad literature you have read, I have lived for a decade in India, China and Tibet to know the pulse of the culture there. And you were the one criticizing the Brahmins, and call me self-righteous? Or you were trying a stab at humour? Be well.

[Makyea]

No, no, no. LACK?? I never said or even tried to imply you lacked motivation. The most important thing about motivation is not quantity but quality. I don't mean to say you lack passion or drive. My point was more to the quality of motivation, the why. Why Taoism? I'm not saying "you don't love or strive after Taoism hard enough."

 

If you explained the motivation behind your search, it would help to have an intelligent discussion. I am going to take a totally different tack with someone who comes to Taoism seeking longer orgasms compared to someone who comes to Taoism seeking wisdom. Some people's motivation amounts to nothing more than blind fear. For example, people are worried that their diet is not in tune with Nature enough, so they seek some (what they think is) naturalistic advice on diet. They want to get all scientific about their diet because they are afraid of their bodies becoming unglued, etc. They don't give a shit about wisdom. These folks just want their bodies nice and strong so that they can subject themselves to more stupidity and abuse. Other people like the idea of immortality and come to Taoism because they have heard of Taoist immortals. I have totally different things to say to these variously motivated individuals.

 

So my point is, if I know what motivates you, the quality of your motivation (and not quantity), then I can try to be more useful and helpful in how I talk to you.

 

Oh I see! Haha, I didn't think that made much sense. I understand now. I didn't even know about the whole sex thing or the diet thing till I did some research. My main motivation is to be my ultimate self. I want to use my body the best way I can. I want wisdom. I want enlightenment. I read about Taoism and it seemed like it was the way to get there. I mean many religions or faiths don't focus on making you the best you can be just because that is what you truly want. Most just improve your moral or at least make you suck up to a god just to end up better. It all seems like your just scrambling for praise and not benefiting personally. I think that is what Taoism offers that other faiths lack. It helps you obtain a higher level of existing, shows how good it is to be on that higher level, and shows you what is real versus the "reality" we see everyday. That doesn't really get across how I feel but that is the best way I can describe it. It really improves more than social skills I guess.

[Makyea]

Tyler,

 

I am a busy person and would like to engage only in constructive talk. It seems to be that you have long left that track. I have nothing more to say to you. Also, how do you know my credentials? I am a research scholar of several years myself and have 40+ publications better read than the ones you name, also serving as text books. Flaunting two doctorates would probably help to make your kinds pay a little more attention to others, but that's not really my point here. I expect to be heard based on the validity of what I say and not my credentials which are secondary. While you have been sitting here passing judgments based on what bad literature you have read, I have lived for a decade in India, China and Tibet to know the pulse of the culture there. And you were the one criticizing the Brahmins, and call me self-righteous? Or you were trying a stab at humour? Be well.

 

 

I can see where you both are coming from and from what I know put in to what you have said, I think that it is wrong to out down a religion based on the customs of the area. That is sort of like saying all Americans that say they are against war are lying and trying to save face because there are lots of people, some in power some not, who are for it. Just because an area may be tainted(I am not saying it is or isn't) does not mean its beliefs are or are not. Isn't it with most faiths that when you enter certain places you must cleanse yourself? Maybe they were just cleansing themselves to be rid of outside ideas such as some monks do not leave because they do not need more than their beliefs. I don't know enough to say whether anyone is right or wrong and it is a deep-rooted long thought out issue but I hope you both try and see from each others view about it. I think you are both very smart and strong people and that if you could try to see through the other's eye it could only make you smarter and stronger. Thank you for your point of views though. Very interesting to read.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Makyea

[Makyea]

The best thing you can do is to begin looking at your beliefs and values with a critical eye. By critical I don't mean to say that everything you believe and value is bad. I simply mean that you should be in position of authority and responsibility over the contents of your own mind. So in the way I use the word "critical" I do not imply "negative". If anything, you should be your own friend and not your own enemy.

 

Once you are free to examine all the various beliefs, values, habits, patterns in your life, how they appeared to you, why do you maintain them and so on, you will begin to see that you are better than 90% of all the spiritual teachers right then and there. Why is that? It's because most teachers neither question their own beliefs, nor do they teach anyone to question anything. Most teachers spread dogma in a format that prohibits and discourages questioning. And a curious and questioning attitude is a precursor to true freedom and fulfillment (although it's a long road even with such attitude).

 

Now, with regard to travel, what the old sages really meant is this (I am speaking authoritatively on this issue because I believe I understand it 100%). They meant that all our problems stem from how our minds are structured. To understand the flaws that inhibit us, we don't need to go to another country. Simply turning your attention inward is the answer and the key to wisdom. That doesn't mean traveling is bad. Traveling is neither here nor there. The point is, if you are not already looking at the contents of your own mind, it won't matter and it won't help you to go to China, but if you already are looking, then again, it won't help you to go to China, because all that a good Chuang Tzu-like sage would tell you in China, is just that -- examine your own mind and be careful of the assumption you make. Assumptions about yourself, about reality, about the inner and the outer worlds, about the distinctions between them and so on.

 

As I said before, you should at least read both Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu, just to know when the so-called "taoist" teachers are peddling bullshit. If something a so-called "Taoist" teacher says is not in accord with Chuang Tzu, you can be pretty sure it's BS, at least from the point of view of the orthodox Taoism, which is defined by its founders, such as Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Not everything called "othodox" is great or correct or useful. But at least you would understand what the founders' attitudes were compared to the people who teach "taoism" now. If nothing else, when these teachers deviate, they should explain themselves, why do they call themselves "taoist"?

 

As I have said I do plan on reading these when I have some time to completly give to them. I just wanted to know if there were any other things to know. I do agree with you so you can be sure I will not just take what everyone says as it. I will read the texts and learn for myself instead of just taking others words. I didn't ask for texts for no reason. Thank you for the advice though. I appreciate it. Especially with regard to the travel. After reading what you told me and reading that over it did make much more sense. I am starting to get highly annoyed with the textbook because after just reading the quotes I can see it was wrong. I will be reading the actual Taoist texts soon.

[tyler zambori]

Tyler,

 

I am a busy person and would like to engage only in constructive talk. It seems to be that you have long left that track. I have nothing more to say to you. Also, how do you know my credentials? I am a research scholar of several years myself and have 40+ publications better read than the ones you name, also serving as text books. Flaunting two doctorates would probably help to make your kinds pay a little more attention to others, but that's not really my point here. I expect to be heard based on the validity of what I say and not my credentials which are secondary. While you have been sitting here passing judgments based on what bad literature you have read, I have lived for a decade in India, China and Tibet to know the pulse of the culture there. And you were the one criticizing the Brahmins, and call me self-righteous? Or you were trying a stab at humour? Be well.

 

 

So says the anonymous author who flaunts his credentials without showing them. You now want to back out -

good! Again with the self-righteousness - how do you know I am basing my opinion only on a couple books

I have read? I'm not. What you say is not valid - it is a ridiculously biased and uninformed statement about the caste system in India. You probably believe that any statement that the Hindus came up with the caste system all on their own is all a lie. Oh wait, you did say that.

 

So you have nothing more to say - good, that's very good.

[tyler zambori]

I can see where you both are coming from and from what I know put in to what you have said, I think that it is wrong to out down a religion based on the customs of the area. That is sort of like saying all Americans that say they are against war are lying and trying to save face because there are lots of people, some in power some not, who are for it. Just because an area may be tainted(I am not saying it is or isn't) does not mean its beliefs are or are not. Isn't it with most faiths that when you enter certain places you must cleanse yourself? Maybe they were just cleansing themselves to be rid of outside ideas such as some monks do not leave because they do not need more than their beliefs. I don't know enough to say whether anyone is right or wrong and it is a deep-rooted long thought out issue but I hope you both try and see from each others view about it. I think you are both very smart and strong people and that if you could try to see through the other's eye it could only make you smarter and stronger. Thank you for your point of views though. Very interesting to read.

 

Makyea, I would have agreed with you at one point - I used to think, well, the culture might

have problems, but surely the enlightened people have risen above it, but after years of suffering

and personal experience, I slowly started to piece together what is wrong with it and why. I'm not

just pulling it out of my butt.

 

And it is a little different than being for or against war, because wars are not started with every

single individual's agreement. Participating in a dysfunctional culture, however, is something that

is done on an individual basis.

 

And no, I'm not talking about Brahmins having to cleanse themselves when entering certain places,

I'm talking about Brahmins having to cleanse themselves before they can have contact with other

Brahmins again, *because* they had been traveling in places with non-Hindu people. And the only

reason they ever improved, was because of religious competition. No improvement, no protein,

there ya go.

 

I'm just interested in giving *you* a different view on the Hindus than the people who are trying

to promote it to you. Every culture has its quirks, but at least the Chinese had a meritocracy, and

were happier overall because of it, and I expect that will be reflected in Taoism. Never

underestimate the power of the influence of the culture over that culture's religion. I learned

that lesson the hard way.

[Makyea]

Makyea, I would have agreed with you at one point - I used to think, well, the culture might

have problems, but surely the enlightened people have risen above it, but after years of suffering

and personal experience, I slowly started to piece together what is wrong with it and why. I'm not

just pulling it out of my butt.

 

And it is a little different than being for or against war, because wars are not started with every

single individual's agreement. Participating in a dysfunctional culture, however, is something that

is done on an individual basis.

 

And no, I'm not talking about Brahmins having to cleanse themselves when entering certain places,

I'm talking about Brahmins having to cleanse themselves before they can have contact with other

Brahmins again, *because* they had been traveling in places with non-Hindu people. And the only

reason they ever improved, was because of religious competition. No improvement, no protein,

there ya go.

 

I'm just interested in giving *you* a different view on the Hindus than the people who are trying

to promote it to you. Every culture has its quirks, but at least the Chinese had a meritocracy, and

were happier overall because of it, and I expect that will be reflected in Taoism. Never

underestimate the power of the influence of the culture over that culture's religion. I learned

that lesson the hard way.

 

What you say again makes sense to me. I can see what you are saying but I do not think I agree Hinduism anyway. Well it is not that I do not agree it just does not speak to the inner me the way Taoism does. I would love to learn more about Hinduism and I will probably look into it later because I think there are some things about it that do peak some interest. I would love to study religion and things so I try my best to keep my mind clear of any strong opinions on subject I do not know about myself. How am I to say what is wrong or right. Thank you for the thoughts though. They are very interesting and give me more to think about.

[tyler zambori]

What you say again makes sense to me. I can see what you are saying but I do not think I agree Hinduism anyway. Well it is not that I do not agree it just does not speak to the inner me the way Taoism does. I would love to learn more about Hinduism and I will probably look into it later because I think there are some things about it that do peak some interest. I would love to study religion and things so I try my best to keep my mind clear of any strong opinions on subject I do not know about myself. How am I to say what is wrong or right. Thank you for the thoughts though. They are very interesting and give me more to think about.

 

 

When you do get to that point, Rev. Jaganath Carrera wrote a very good Yoga Sutra commentary.

It's the only non-buddhist influenced one I've found, that was close to being useful.

I say this after buying and trying to read many of them. Even his own teacher said that

Patanjali was with him when he wrote it.

 

Gled to be of help, take care.

[Guest paul walter]

Every culture has its quirks, but at least the Chinese had a meritocracy, and

were happier overall because of it, and I expect that will be reflected in Taoism. Never

underestimate the power of the influence of the culture over that culture's religion. I learned

that lesson the hard way.

 

 

You're middle class aren't you? 'Following' the way of tao is at odds with the Confucionist/Neo-Confucionist ideal found in a large chunk of Chinese history so...Some will argue they are compatible but they are liars . Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

double post

Edited February 22, 2010 by paul walter

[Makyea]

You're middle class aren't you? 'Following' the way of tao is at odds with the Confucionist/Neo-Confucionist ideal found in a large chunk of Chinese history so...Some will argue they are compatible but they are liars . Paul.

 

Middle class?

[Guest paul walter]

Middle class?

 

 

I take it you thought it was meant for you? It was for Tyler. If you're asking why "middle class" then it's because only a middle class person seems capable of lauding a blatantly unfair and loaded system (in this case the beauraucratic educational system of the Confucion elite in Chinese history) simply because they represent the modern equivalent and are the beneficiaries of such a system. Most middle class people have no idea of their social position and the unfairness and prejudices it rests upon. They often state they are against racism and sexism for example but never ever seem to mention 'classism'-the oppression of those in less fortunate economic circumstances than themselves. That's why they choose to be unaware of the implications of such concepts as 'meritocracy'--they benefit from such things (grades,jobs,money,status,social acceptance) while others go without. People tried to open up the debate on this sort of thing in the politically charged 60's and 70's through feminism and social activism but we're a long way from that battle now. Anyway this is and will no doubt be a very unpopular topic if it goes further than this post so will stop my rant before your thread is ruined . Paul