Systema, Aikido

[mike1234]

Especially after learning about how John Chang took down Mike Tyson[before the Buster Douglas fight] and his bodyguards in Vegas!

 

That iron ear technique is like level 21 stuff

[enouch]

That iron ear technique is like level 21 stuff

 

 

 

Funny! But it actually happened.

[Starjumper]

The way I heard it is that Systema derived from the fighting way of the Cossacks, and the Cossack way derived from an art which came from North central Asia from the area of a great mountain range there which divides Russia from China. There is a similar Chinese martial art which came from these same mountains, it is quite unknown and is always in danger of dying out. Since these two arts are so similar and since they came from the same area of the world one would assume that they had the same source, that there is an original art from which Systema went West into Russia and The Chinese art went East into China.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Stigweard]

Stigweard,

 

Are you still training Systema? Are you working with their breathing practices, which are said to be the foundation of Systema? I would love to hear your impressions.

Heya ... yup still training. The breathing practice (which is excellent) is only one aspect of the art ... also you must have correct posture, fluidity and movement. Essentially the same as Taijiquan.

 

To the above posts ... a good fighter must have all the ranges covered ... kicking, striking, grappling, and ground fighting. Otherwise you are going to get hammered. And I personally agree that a lot of IMA need a serious reality check on what they are doing. Comps like MMA and UFC have been a terrific boon for the martial arts world, a melting pot of "if it don't work you're kissing the canvas".

 

But I am not a very good authority on the matter, I am definitely not a ring fighter and only train for the pleasure of physical interactivity. I would love to see a Systema lad trained up properly for the UFC though

[Starjumper]

But I am not a very good authority on the matter, I am definitely not a ring fighter and only train for the pleasure of physical interactivity. I would love to see a Systema lad trained up properly for the UFC though

I don't think it will work. For example in the system which is the Chinese counterpart to Systema the solution to an attempted take down by a grappler or wrestler is to break their neck or smash their head on the concrete, depending on which way they come at you. Last I checked there are rules to keep people from breaking necks in the UFC and MMA and heads don't smash so well on the bouncy ring floors; and if you DON'T break their neck then you can't really neutralize them and they'll just keep coming at you. Someone who is good will be able to unbalance the grappler with each of their attempts but if you don't add the killing move then there is no finish, they will just keep coming back, and there's the chance they will learn to compensate for it.

 

In truth, most of the methods of systema/IMA are made ineffective by the rules requiring no serious injures.

 

This is the main reason that IMA suffers against MMA and the MMA guys think they are so great, let them think that, after all the sages like to hide their light, yes?

Edited July 11, 2010 by Starjumper7

[thelerner]

Heya ... yup still training. The breathing practice (which is excellent) is only one aspect of the art ... also you must have correct posture, fluidity and movement.

 

What is the breathing practice like?

 

In my Aikido dojo there was a breathing practice w/ an unusually long breath cycle. 30 second in, 30 seconds out. It took a long time, actually years to get, course I didn't work on very hard on it in those days, and now, a decade out of practice I can't do it. A senior instructor told me 'This is whats really going to save your life'. I dismissed it at the time, but that probably is the truth.

 

Michael

[Stigweard]

What is the breathing practice like?

 

In my Aikido dojo there was a breathing practice w/ an unusually long breath cycle. 30 second in, 30 seconds out. It took a long time, actually years to get, course I didn't work on very hard on it in those days, and now, a decade out of practice I can't do it. A senior instructor told me 'This is whats really going to save your life'. I dismissed it at the time, but that probably is the truth.

 

Michael

The basic principle, to my uneducated knowledge, is, by keeping the breathing smooth and even, we keep our movements fluid. When we constrict or hold our breathing then our movements become likewise constricted.

 

Some of the practice includes whats called "Square Breathing", which is basically breathing in for say a count of 5, hold for 5, breathe out for 5 and hold for 5 etc. Then extending the count.

 

There is also the practice of learning to operate when the breathing is compromised i.e. getting winded, underwater, being choked etc. Here's one drill: Take a breath in and then do 3-5 full and slow squats holding the breath the whole time. Then reverse it by breathing out all the way and doing 3-5 full and slow squats holding the breath the whole time.

 

[mike1234]

I don't think it will work. For example in the system which is the Chinese counterpart to Systema the solution to an attempted take down by a grappler or wrestler is to break their neck or smash their head on the concrete, depending on which way they come at you. Last I checked there are rules to keep people from breaking necks in the UFC and MMA and heads don't smash so well on the bouncy ring floors; and if you DON'T break their neck then you can't really neutralize them and they'll just keep coming at you. Someone who is good will be able to unbalance the grappler with each of their attempts but if you don't add the killing move then there is no finish, they will just keep coming back, and there's the chance they will learn to compensate for it.

 

In truth, most of the methods of systema/IMA are made ineffective by the rules requiring no serious injures.

 

This is the main reason that IMA suffers against MMA and the MMA guys think they are so great, let them think that, after all the sages like to hide their light, yes?

 

I somewhat agree with you! IMA is supposedly self-defense oriented, and MMA is a ring SPORT. Self-defense is about doing whatever is necessary to survive. I think it is more truthful to say that IMA guys just don't train hard enough or realistically enough to pull off their super duper break the grapplers neck move. Unless you have practiced such a technique in real time against an aggressive attacking partner, then you have no idea if it will work. No, I don't mean that you have to break someone's neck to know if it works, but you need to know if you can effectively stop the shoot. All IMA and Chinese martial arts students claim that the defense against the take down is to know how to root, but none of them show the effectiveness of their root-against-the-shoot technique against a real grappler. They always have one of their inexperience students run at them like a 4 year old, and yell LOOK LOOK --- I just defended against the shoot!

 

Root-to-neckbreaker-head-smash is just a THEORY until you've done it to stop an experienced shooter. Grapplers normally have more sensitivity than life long Ta Chi practitioners because they learn how to yield and sense under real stress against aggressive partners.

 

What does the super root-to-neckbreaker-head-smash have to end in death or serious injury? How many BJJ guys break their opponents limbs just to know that an armbar works? The screams and tapping is enough. Why can't the IMA root-to-neckbreakers show the effectiveness of the move without the kill? Simply show how you root and setup this super technique without killing an aggressive spar partner? Surly these masters have that kind of control.

 

A poor presupposition was established--- Grapplers blindly shoot--- no way! A good grappler will setup a takedown so fast that you will not see it. I had a pal that was really good at judo take me down so fast that I didn't know I was being attacked until I felt myself hit the ground.

 

MMA guys simply have better training than most TMA guys-- ESPECIALLY IMA guys who have 0 experience dealing with aggressive fighters.

Edited July 12, 2010 by mike1234

[Starjumper]

Root-to-neckbreaker-head-smash is just a THEORY until you've done it to stop an experienced shooter. Grapplers normally have more sensitivity than life long Ta Chi practitioners because they learn how to yield and sense under real stress against aggressive partners.

 

Evidently you haven't seen any IMA that specialize in applications.

 

What does the super root-to-neckbreaker-head-smash have to end in death or serious injury? How many BJJ guys break their opponents limbs just to know that an armbar works? The screams and tapping is enough. Why can't the IMA root-to-neckbreakers show the effectiveness of the move without the kill? Simply show how you root and setup this super technique without killing an aggressive spar partner? Surly these masters have that kind of control.

 

Yes they do, but us beginners don't. Concerning whether or not the neck break would work: once you're in position all you need to do is straighten your legs and the neck will break, however if you stand around with your finger in your nose the grapler could wiggle out of it. which they will, of course do, and proclaim themselves superior. I've seen such things many times where some of the baddest guys in MMA try to hit or take down my teacher. It's hard to convince someone with testosterone flowing out their ears that they are actually 'dead' until they get their ass handed to them twenty times in a row. And then of course, once you convince that guy then you have to convince all his buddies, who will just think he's a pussy and they are of course better than him. Sometimes the aggressive musclebound feller does the punch and the IMA master stops him for a microsecond with a deadly move (but doesn't follow through) so then the feller does his second move and proclaims himself victor, not knowing he's already dead. Then he announces to my teacher that he won and my teacher says yes he did. This happened a LOT. I mean, it's actually better to have your enemies underestimate you, don't you think.

 

MMA guys simply have better training than most TMA guys-- ESPECIALLY IMA guys who have 0 experience dealing with aggressive fighters.

 

Applications experts in Chinese IMA are very rare, your best bet is to look at Systema.

 

Another thing, since IMA isn't for the ring but for dirty street fighting and military situations the 'opponents' are usually quite different. It's not likely that someone who is a king of the ring will attack you on the street compared to normal low lifes.

 

Some people actually go trolling for muggers

Edited July 12, 2010 by Starjumper7

[mjjbecker]

RE: Aikido and 'internal' training, see Ellis Amdur's latest book:

 

http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy-books-on-martial-arts.html

 

There is nothing else out there that has anything like the research into this subject. It talks about Japanese methods that exist in traditional schools and how Ueshiba likely got his power training from this avenue.

 

Well worth reading.

[BMay]

So if anyone has read the book "Qi Dao- Tibetan Shamanic Qigong: the Art of Being in the Flow", the author, Lama Somananda Tantrapa says that his grandfather aided in teaching martial arts to the Soviet military, and some of the principles he taught can be seen in arts such as systema. I've seen a few demos and explanations like

which, while I don't understand what's being said, seems to talk about relaxed power in punching.

 

B.K. Frantzis in an article here says that he is convinced that much of Morihei Ueshiba's skill came from some sort of internal martial arts training, most likely bagua, which he might have learned from time spent in China, but due to the political atmosphere during the time he taught he was unable to give proper credit for the source of his techniques. Watching a video like

, I can almost directly see someone walking the circle, or doing a palm change.

 

Does anyone have any experience with either of these two arts? Or has anyone trained in or seen another art that also has very apparent internal principles, but is not generally talked about in terms of "internal martial arts"?

 

As always, any thoughts would be appreciated

 

I have done some training in Nishio Style Aikido and I recently attended a workshop with Jess O'Brien on Xing Yi Quan. I was amazed at the parallels between the two styles. There are very striking similarities. I can easily believe that O'Sensei had some training in Xing Yi while in China. I also watched the Qi Dao video. Qi Dao looks almost exactly like the warm up exercises we do in Aikido.

[Lama Tantrapa]

The way I heard it is that Systema derived from the fighting way of the Cossacks, and the Cossack way derived from an art which came from North central Asia from the area of a great mountain range there which divides Russia from China. There is a similar Chinese martial art which came from these same mountains, it is quite unknown and is always in danger of dying out. Since these two arts are so similar and since they came from the same area of the world one would assume that they had the same source, that there is an original art from which Systema went West into Russia and The Chinese art went East into China.

 

You must be referring to Qi Dao, also known as Tibetan Shamanic Qigong. It is very similar to what you call "Systema" because the latter was developed by many masters in Russia over a period of time. Some of those masters were trained in Qi Dao, for example my grandfather, who was the last lineage holder of Qi Dao. Of course, the KGB had no interest in his Dream Yoga, meditation and healing abilities; they just wanted the fighting skills. He taught that type of skills to a number of top-notch operatives, including a few spies and Stalin's bodyguards. As his grandson, I received a very different training that was more spiritually oriented. Later I became a Tibetan lama in the Bon tradition, so my focus is a bit different from that of Mikhail Ryabko or Vladimir Vasiliev, bot of whom I happen to know. In fact, both of them are spiritually inclined toward the Russian Orthodox Church, which probably makes a difference in their approach to fighting and other applications of the art.

 

If you are interested in Qi Dao, feel free to check out my book Qi Dao - Tibetan Shamanic Qigong: The Art of Being in the Flow on Amazon.com. It is the first in a series of books on this system, but it will give you some idea about the most basic level of training in Qi Dao. There is also a companion DVD that demonstrates the first steps in learning how to be in the flow, which may not look very spectacular, but help develop a very strong foundation for any further training in Qi Dao or any other discipline.

[Vajrasattva]

The Japanese would have loved it if they could have killed their mother (China) but unfortunately.... It's not for nothing that there has been no Aikido practitioner who could equal Ueshibas fa jin. For them chi is the impentrable mystery their cult status depends on--an obfuscation we see in Reiki and other Japanese 'cults'--they just don't want others knowing about the ready availability of this sort of thing, it would put these guys out of a job and help pull down the impenetrable class/race divide, both within Japan and in relation to China. The Japanese, ninjas that they are, love smoke and mirrors where clarity could equally dwell. When Ueshiba was in China with the rest of the Japanese conquistadors he changed his style, obviously learnt bagua (all them circles), spent time in a monastery (so the rumour has it) and took the theories of yin and yang and chi wholesale from taoist texts and put them in his own sometimes silly writings and aphorisms. Of course all this fits in with Shinto quite nicely--shamanistic earth practice. Read Bruce Frantzis' 'The Power of Internal Martial Arts and Chi' for some comments on his theory about the origins of Aikido as we now know it, and for his comments on the 'higher' practices of 'secret' Japanese martial arts e.g. Okinawan lineages. Also see 'Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts' (2 vols) for a further showing of how the Japs like re-inventing the wheel in relation to their now 'sacred' cultural practices. I can accept the Shinto practices but lets try and fill in the missing history while we're at it--no contradiction there (just the end of Aikido as it has become known ). Paul.

 

 

there is a lot of internal stuff in Japanese arts. Ninpo, Aikido, and some of the Jutsu's. Some of it is from kuntau, and chinese taoist and Tibetan Bonpo & mikkyo and some of it is from Shinto . Also some of it is simply common sense. there is only so many ways to move with a weapon in your hand or with armor on or while on a horse.

[Vajrasattva]

Evidently you haven't seen any IMA that specialize in applications.

 

 

 

Yes they do, but us beginners don't. Concerning whether or not the neck break would work: once you're in position all you need to do is straighten your legs and the neck will break, however if you stand around with your finger in your nose the grapler could wiggle out of it. which they will, of course do, and proclaim themselves superior. I've seen such things many times where some of the baddest guys in MMA try to hit or take down my teacher. It's hard to convince someone with testosterone flowing out their ears that they are actually 'dead' until they get their ass handed to them twenty times in a row. And then of course, once you convince that guy then you have to convince all his buddies, who will just think he's a pussy and they are of course better than him. Sometimes the aggressive musclebound feller does the punch and the IMA master stops him for a microsecond with a deadly move (but doesn't follow through) so then the feller does his second move and proclaims himself victor, not knowing he's already dead. Then he announces to my teacher that he won and my teacher says yes he did. This happened a LOT. I mean, it's actually better to have your enemies underestimate you, don't you think.

 

 

 

Applications experts in Chinese IMA are very rare, your best bet is to look at Systema.

 

Another thing, since IMA isn't for the ring but for dirty street fighting and military situations the 'opponents' are usually quite different. It's not likely that someone who is a king of the ring will attack you on the street compared to normal low lifes.

 

Some people actually go trolling for muggers

 

Silat you will find applications that are very similar to upper level taiji or bagua or xing yi . There is a close relationship to silat and kuntau