I Ching translations

[Taomeow]

I used cars.com with spectacular results. Seems odd to use an ancient book of wisdom to go used car and plane ticket shopping, but likely this is just my cultural prejudices showing.

 

I have learned all I could from cars.com too. There's ways to know and ways to Know and the I Ching Knows what cars.com doesn't.

 

It's not so much cultural prejudices as cultural handicaps, cultural cognitive disabilities, that we're up against. Ancient taoist culture and, especially, science (sic) dedicated the bulk of their research to the study of Time. Its laws, their manifestations in the human world, the shape and quality of the "invisible landscape" of Time. Our own culture and science are still crawling in diapers in these "modern times" in terms of their expertise on the nature and workings of Time; theirs, 5000 years of unwavering focus on same later, is rocket science. I'm not kidding.

 

The I Ching is science for me, first and foremost, not philosophy. Divination is applications. Studying it without using it for applications is like having a caveman come across a manual on electrical engineering and study it -- without ever having flipped a switch and seen the light. The actual light bulb that is an "application." He might speculate as to the truthfulness of falsehood of all the "ideas about electricity" in the book he "studies." But put him in a dark room and tell him to flip a switch -- and he will Know an Application for the phenomenon of Electricity as harnessed in the Human World.

 

The I Ching divination is such a switch you flip to begin learning about the phenomenon of Time as manifesting in the Human World. That's a start... whereas just reading the manual is not.

[Taomeow]

Well said.

 

"bow" thanks!

[forestofclarity]

Well, it's not the divination, so much as the materialism of the use. If I had a good line to the divine, it would feel strange if I asked "Am I getting a good deal on a car here?"

 

The I Ching divination is such a switch you flip to begin learning about the phenomenon of Time as manifesting in the Human World. That's a start... whereas just reading the manual is not.

[Taomeow]

Well, it's not the divination, so much as the materialism of the use. If I had a good line to the divine, it would feel strange if I asked "Am I getting a good deal on a car here?"

 

Materialism? You mean you live somewhere where a car would be a materialistic excess? Well, I live in California. I'd starve without one. So it's a basic necessity for me, not a whim... not that the I Ching won't understand a whim in a real flesh-and-blood woman either, I'm not playing immortal sage with her, she knows who I am and I can't shock or offend her by being real-- and my real includes "occasionally whimsical" and "occasionally looking for a good deal" too -- I've no money to burn. She is a teacher and sometimes a disciplinarian... but first and foremost, through respect, trust, ongoing communication, and -- should I say it -- LOVE -- through giving her these I've succeeded in making her my friend... and she treats me as a friend would, who wouldn't be shocked if I showed my humanity to her. There's a hexagram titled Adornment which OKed an extravagant party dress I was fiending, and another one, Revolution, which I got when divining a hair color change. I am human, female, and real. You don't fool the I Ching even if you're fooling yourself with "anti-materialistic" words that can't possibly be substantiated by actions 24/7 365 days a year.

 

And, no, you can't ask if you're getting a good deal on a car. You can't ask a question before you learn to ask a question. It takes me the bulk of my divination time to formulate the question, and in the process I become aware of the strengths and weaknesses of my own thinking process, many of my feelings, and importantly, my power of expression of same (or lack thereof). You can't ask a "yes" or "no" question, nor an "either-or," nor a "should I, could I, would I" question. You need to learn to ask the universe, via the I Ching (or vice versa, since they are the same), in a manner that is an art to work and work on in and of itself -- but once you've mastered the art, you can ask her about ANYTHING. Worst thing that can happen is, she will tell you to use your own brain, as she sometimes did when I was bothering her too much. (I ask "am I bothering you too much?" from time to time too, but not in a "yes" or "no" fashion, of course .)

[Mal]

[RyanO]

Materialism? You mean you live somewhere where a car would be a materialistic excess? Well, I live in California. I'd starve without one. So it's a basic necessity for me, not a whim... not that the I Ching won't understand a whim in a real flesh-and-blood woman either, I'm not playing immortal sage with her, she knows who I am and I can't shock or offend her by being real-- and my real includes "occasionally whimsical" and "occasionally looking for a good deal" too -- I've no money to burn. She is a teacher and sometimes a disciplinarian... but first and foremost, through respect, trust, ongoing communication, and -- should I say it -- LOVE -- through giving her these I've succeeded in making her my friend... and she treats me as a friend would, who wouldn't be shocked if I showed my humanity to her. There's a hexagram titled Adornment which OKed an extravagant party dress I was fiending, and another one, Revolution, which I got when divining a hair color change. I am human, female, and real. You don't fool the I Ching even if you're fooling yourself with "anti-materialistic" words that can't possibly be substantiated by actions 24/7 365 days a year.

 

And, no, you can't ask if you're getting a good deal on a car. You can't ask a question before you learn to ask a question. It takes me the bulk of my divination time to formulate the question, and in the process I become aware of the strengths and weaknesses of my own thinking process, many of my feelings, and importantly, my power of expression of same (or lack thereof). You can't ask a "yes" or "no" question, nor an "either-or," nor a "should I, could I, would I" question. You need to learn to ask the universe, via the I Ching (or vice versa, since they are the same), in a manner that is an art to work and work on in and of itself -- but once you've mastered the art, you can ask her about ANYTHING. Worst thing that can happen is, she will tell you to use your own brain, as she sometimes did when I was bothering her too much. (I ask "am I bothering you too much?" from time to time too, but not in a "yes" or "no" fashion, of course .)

 

I like how you refer to the I Ching as a "her" and personalize the relationship.

 

While I'm still in the skeptical camp regarding divination, I think your organic approach has a beautiful quality about it . It reminds me of my own relationship with the universe in general.

[Pietro]

Yes. Have you tried to actually use it for divination?

which part of:

 

I have been in situation where the I Ching really helped me out. I threw the coins, and it would make no sense. Or make a partial sense, but a few days later I was back there, meaning the solution I have found was just an illusion, a delusion.

 

did you miss?

 

That would work well if you knew at all times what kind of situation you are in. Do you? I use the I Ching precisely when I don't.

 

So you don't know a situation, you throw the I Ching, this gives you an answer, and you are happy with that. Good! This has nothing to do with Science, in the sense that you cannot apply science to that. You cannot even deny it. Science can only be applied to claims that can be disproved.

 

And it's not science that I use, it's common sense. And once you look into it you will see that the scientific method is nothing more but common sense, formalized.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you can benefit greatly from studying it FIRST, using for divination later

 

Later as, when you are one with the universe? Yes, then I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

NOT use it for divination is to defy its origins, its purpose in life, the intent of its creators, its destiny -- and your own.

Regarding the I Ching purpose... maybe, or maybe not.

Regarding my destiny, surely not.

 

TM, I did not want to raise all this, I said I did not use it for divination, I was asked why, and I answered.

If I ruffled some of your whiskers just ignore me.

[Pietro]

Well, it's not the divination, so much as the materialism of the use. If I had a good line to the divine, it would feel strange if I asked "Am I getting a good deal on a car here?"

 

 

 

Well, don't worry about that. 90% of the questions from Chinese people are on similar topics.

[Apech]

 

 

And it's not science that I use, it's common sense. And once you look into it you will see that the scientific method is nothing more but common sense, formalized.

 

 

 

Later as, when you are one with the universe? Yes, then I agree.

 

 

 

And that's kind of the problem with Science and why its assumptions are regularly overturned or remain perplexing to common sense (e.g. quantum mechanical effects).

 

The Universe .. and indeed the I Ching may not require us to be at one with them even though we aspire to be so.

[Guest allan]

[Procurator]

The extreme of ignorance is to study a philosophy that is originated and developed 1/2 of the way around the world - for the majority of you - and expect it to be within your own levels of experience.

 

.....

i have to agree, not only there is insurmontable threshhold of language culture and time; the Zhou Yi is a special case in a sense that it was misunderstood by the chinese themselves very early on.

[Procurator]

Have you tried to actually read the book?

 

 

. ANd this is why I really am looking for good translations.

 

 

unfortunately there is not any, and reading with a view to understand the book is pointless, because in a sense there is nothing of substance to understand.

 

the reason for that is that Yi is an onion of: 1 lines. 2. yaos (commentaries to the lines) 3. 10 Wings (commentaries on yaos) 4. chinese commentaries on the wings 5. western mistransltion of all of theabove.

 

So the Yi is based on yaos ( the lines are meaningless without them) but the meaning of yaos was forgotten by the time the wings were written, so the errors snowballed over 2000 years.

 

e. g. when yaos refer to "headless dragon", "jaws", "skin on buttocks" these are the examples of images that were misunderstood even in the Wings. Their true meaning came to light only with recent discoveries of divinatory bones and buried manuscripts.

 

this is why the book can be a useful prop for selfexploration and mind games, but as of itsef it does not contain much of value.

[EagleShen]

Science, like the I-Ching, has everything to do with the kind of questions you ask and the assumptions you frame your reality in. The great thing about the I Ching is that it often shifts my frame of reference in regards to a problem. At times a 'random' reading expands my thinking on a current or desire in my life and it really doesn't matter whether the reading was 'accurate', the wisdom contained and the trying to fit my problem into a new framework has shifted my perspective. I doubt you could do that with a Physics text book.

 

The Universe .. and indeed the I Ching may not require us to be at one with them even though we aspire to be so.

 

Re the universe, we are at one with it, even our refusal to see our oneness is at oneness with it, hence even blind divination can be profoundly effective. But i take Pietros point, if you really want to use it with masterful certainty, you probably do need to at least glimpse the One, and have had a bloody good repeated read.

[Mal]

[Taomeow]

which part (...) did you miss?

 

All of it. I guess my eyes refused to register what they were looking at.

 

I've an offer... Do you mind if I do a reading on your behalf? I have my own idea as to why she won't talk to you, but I prefer to get the confirmation/refutation of this idea directly from the source. Do you mind if I ask her? If you OK it, maybe the response I get will make sense to you. If it doesn't... no harm done.

 

So you don't know a situation, you throw the I Ching, this gives you an answer, and you are happy with that. Good! This has nothing to do with Science, in the sense that you cannot apply science to that. You cannot even deny it. Science can only be applied to claims that can be disproved.

 

I'm talking real modern sciences, dude, not the lowest-common-denominator obsolete "everybody knows" kind --

to wit, what can be learned from this book by a Nobel prize winning scientist -- "Quantum Mechanics, Diffusion and Chaotic Fractals, " by Ilya Prigogine;

the mathematical theory of fuzzy logic -- as pioneered by Lofti Zadeh;

genetics and computational chemistry -- as in "DNA and the I Ching" by Francis F. Yan, Ph.D., a Cornell U researcher;

to name a few. When I say "science" I mean "science." I know your Popperesque definition and I've always found it amusing, but definitive? -- nah.

 

TM, I did not want to raise all this, I said I did not use it for divination, I was asked why, and I answered.

If I ruffled some of your whiskers just ignore me.

I don't believe I gave you reasons to believe that my whiskers got involved at all, much less ruffled. My mind, yes. I have a mind to respond to what's brought up, I do. But a mind reader I'm not, so I couldn't possibly know that you bring up a point for the specific purpose of it being ignored. I stand informed.

[Procurator]

 

TianShi thinking that many here do not know the layers of the onion strikes me as error of assumption. Yuo have obviously done much research into this so I ask have you looked at the Eranos or Huang?

no they are secondary, but i looked at the source material.

 

take "headless dragon" originally it was referring to elther waning moon or the constellation of Dragon going head first behind the horizon and thus headless. wanna bet a pint that none of the translations even mentions this ?

[Taomeow]

Quote

 

Because book owners frequently have favorite passages that the books open themselves to, some practitioners use dice or another randomiser to choose the page to be opened. This practice was formalized by the use of coins or yarrow stalks in consulting the I Ching

 

The author of this explanation made it up.

 

Yarrow was used for divination in all shamanic cutures wherever it grows long before the I Ching was written. It was, and still is, known as the diviner's plant, the oracle plant. Early divinational role of the I Ching was that of the interpreter for what the yarrow oracle is saying.

[Mal]

Yes Wiki's are like that (questionable) Some people try to use is as a reference for assignments

 

take "headless dragon" originally it was referring to elther waning moon or the constellation of Dragon going head first behind the horizon and thus headless. wanna bet a pint that none of the translations even mentions this ?

 

Ok (well as easly as we can over the net ) What hexagram was it from and I'll have a look, sounds a like fun experiment.

[Procurator]

Yes Wiki's are like that (questionable) Some people try to use is as a reference for assignments

 

 

 

Ok (well as easly as we can over the net ) What hexagram was it from and I'll have a look, sounds a like fun experiment.

http://pages.pacificcoast.net/~wh/hexag01.htm

 

the veryfirst one

[Pietro]

What hexagram was it from ...

 

MAL!!!

 

 

(Taomeaw, thanks for the offer, I am honored.

Let me finish the paper I am writing, I have a deadline today, then I'll get back at you)

[Apech]

 

 

Ok (well as easly as we can over the net ) What hexagram was it from and I'll have a look, sounds a like fun experiment.

 

First Hex all moving lines.

[Uncle Screwtape]

TM,

 

I really appreciated what you said about learning how to ask a question. It took me a while to learn I had to learn how to ask, too. It was like fiddling with a combination lock and then suddenly it popped open. I prefer the yarrow method because of the time it takes and the opportunity the I Ching has to talk to me before a hexagram is revealed. She sometimes tells me that I am asking the wrong question; I'll even be told what question I should ask! Once I asked about what role a particular person plays in my life and I was told: 'That's not for you to know; but you know who you should ask about?' Then she told me.

 

So much of the divination takes place even before the final hexagram has been divined. It took me years to get to that stage. That's even before I get to the hexagrams themselves.

 

(For me, the Ta Chuan is more valuable a text than the TTC.)

 

Richard

 

PS Pietro, it was a divination TM did for me that brought me so close to the I Ching and I am thankful to this day. You'd do well to take her up on her generous offer.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Uncle Screwtape

[Mal]

[Procurator]

[forestofclarity]